Can get his medals?

[sylvie sillince]

Grandfather Henry BROWN 6553 joined the Bedfordshire's circa 1908, was injured 1914 but served throughout WW1, he deserted 18 Dec 1918. He was awarded all three medals. He was also in the Labour Corps 561906

 

His medal roll index card shows 'deserted' and the medal roll book gives the date as above, that his medals were returned as they were forfeited due to desertion. He then went home to have babies!

 

It seems a pity that he served on the Somme and was injured without recognition. No service record (Burnt Series) so no reason known for desertion - just fed up after the war I expect!

 

Does anyone think there is any chance of his medals being restored to the family - I am trying the MOD

 

Thanks

 

Sylvie

 

I forgot to mention that his medals were returned in 1922

[TEW]

Under the circumstances you describe the MOD would not be issuing a new set. As he received the medals and they have subsequently been lost, sold, pawned etc the MOD will not cover such events.

 

Your only hope is that they still exist although the silver content of the BWM means many were scraped when prices were high.

 

Try British Medal Forum, I believe they have a 'wanted' section.

 

Set up an eBay search which will notify you EG. if a medal to Brown 6553 gets listed.

 

There are ways of trawling the big establishments who auction medals for past sales. Try Spink.

 

Generally the best thing to do is create an online presence for the medals which you've started by posting here.

Good Luck

TEW

 

 

 

 

[sylvie sillince]

2 hours ago, TEW said:

Under the circumstances you describe the MOD would not be issuing a new set. As he received the medals and they have subsequently been lost, sold, pawned etc the MOD will not cover such events.

 

Your only hope is that they still exist although the silver content of the BWM means many were scraped when prices were high.

 

Try British Medal Forum, I believe they have a 'wanted' section.

 

Set up an eBay search which will notify you EG. if a medal to Brown 6553 gets listed.

 

There are ways of trawling the big establishments who auction medals for past sales. Try Spink.

 

Generally the best thing to do is create an online presence for the medals which you've started by posting here.

Good Luck

TEW

 

 

 

 

that is very kind, I forgot to mention the most important thing - his medals were returned ! That is documented on the records

[TEW]

I'm hoping another member joins in as there was another post recently that dealt with the subject of medals forfeited due to desertion.

 

There was order dated 1921 that stated that men whose medals had been forfeited could now claim their medals.  Where his medal card says BW & VM returned...23/8/22 could actually mean they were returned to him rather than the usual 'returned to the medal office'.

 

I'll take a look at the rolls to see what they have.

TEW

[sylvie sillince]

26 minutes ago, TEW said:

I'm hoping another member joins in as there was another post recently that dealt with the subject of medals forfeited due to desertion.

 

There was order dated 1921 that stated that men whose medals had been forfeited could now claim their medals.  Where his medal card says BW & VM returned...23/8/22 could actually mean they were returned to him rather than the usual 'returned to the medal office'.

 

I'll take a look at the rolls to see what they have.

TEW

[TEW]

I'll confess to not being 100% sure on this.

 

His 14 Star roll is annotated no medal then forfeited by desertion. However, another man - 6812 Bandy also deserted and has the same annotations. His roll entry is crossed out and he was re-submitted on another page, his medals were reinstated and sent out.

 

Brown's pair roll is simply annotated deserter 18/12/18, medals returned auth/7268, adt.

 

The differences between Brown and Bandy is that Bandy was re-submitted and medals sent out despite the fact they both deserted.

 

On face value I think Brown could have applied for medals but did not or perhaps did not realise the forfeit had been recinded.

 

TEW

 

[sylvie sillince]

This is from the medal roll page - there is no evidence in the family that he had medals although he bought a Military Medal from a market to wear - I  have that but it's not his!

[sylvie sillince]

thank you yet again

 

[MeninGatePilgrim]

42 minutes ago, sylvie sillince said:

that is very kind, I forgot to mention the most important thing - his medals were returned ! That is documented on the records

 

With Deserters, I have noticed that normally they would always have recieved their Star if issued to them earlier in the War - the PAIR is always the site of contention after the 14-18 conflict's conclusion. If your Ancestor was awarded a Star, then that at the very least must be out there.

 

The Pair usually are the medals forfeited due to desertion and normally there is a note his medal roll entry for the Pair that specifies "medals forfeited for desertion". Though if your Ancestor re-applied - there could be a second instance of him being on the medal roll as having his medals approved and awarded.

 

What made the process simpler is if the man was convicted at court-martial and served time for his crimes - usually in the case of desertion these are "desertion" and "loss of equipment" as equipment was deemed public property. If the man served time, then he was in most cases forgiven and medals sent out to him for the role he DID play in the campaign he was involved in if he re-applied for his medals.

 

Hope this helps,

 

- MGP

[TEW]

The MOD site states;

 

You can only apply if the medal was returned, and you can provide a medal card or roll which includes this information.

 

The MOD Medal Office does not provide replacement World War 1 medals. You can buy replicas or original named medals from a medal dealer.

 

You can only apply for World War 1 medals if the original was returned.

 

The middle paragraph is a bit odd as they have issued replacement WWI medals.

 

They state twice that you can only apply if the medals were returned. His MIC does say the pair were returned.

 

I can't find his MIC on ancestry to see the reverse which might say if they were returned from his infantry office to the medal office.

 

It may be worth a try to apply for replacement medals, his MIC fills the criteria for 'returned' it's just the returning may not be the usual type!

TEW

[wandererpaul]

21 minutes ago, TEW said:

 

 

I can't find his MIC on ancestry to see the reverse which might say if they were returned from his infantry office to the medal office.

 

Nothing on the reverse.

 

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1262/images/30850_A000227-00848?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=d9e03485b7e192bdedd679fc9deca3bd&usePUB=true&_phsrc=kim6503&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=2207416

Edited 18 February , 2021 by wandererpaul

[Matlock1418]

The MIC BW & VM annotation with the 22.8.22 date actually ends "7268, Adt (C)"  [and in bottom right corner]

'Adt' on a MIC can mean adjustment / amendment of the medal or a record/file I believe - I suspect the latter was annotated accordingly.

What exactly the 7268 was isn't known to me.

:-) M

Edited 18 February , 2021 by Matlock1418
addition

[TEW]

Yes, I agree with a file/record being 'adt'.

 

The return of the pair 23/8/22 includes the return of CRV 442/b? At least that's my take on it.

 

The pair roll was stamped 22/12/1920, nearly 2 years earlier. I'm not sure if CRV 442 was the original CRV when all the medals on that sheet were sent out. Short of finding a service file for those men and hoping for some medal information and date not sure how to settle that.

 

I was also expecting to see the reverse of the card to indicate that the medals were sent to his record office and they returned them to medal office.

TEW

[sylvie sillince]

Here is his medal index card

[sylvie sillince]

Continued thanks, I have to leave for a while but I will be back!

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

I thought that medals can still be claimed.

I have a feeling that a forum member successfully applied for a relative's unissued medals within the last 2 years, and documented his campaign here, up to and including receipt of new (free) medals from the Medal Office.

Not the same circumstances as in this thread, granted... nevertheless.

 

Of course I could be totally wrong?

[Kath]

 

[TEW]

I also thought they were reissuing medals. Snapped from their site just now.

 

 

So, you can apply if they were returned but they do not provide replacements?

 

Unless that's a new thing it goes against previous posts on reissues.

TEW

 

Edited 18 February , 2021 by TEW

[TEW]

The application form dated 21/5/2020 says you can't get medals issued proir to WWII.

 

Still not sure that's correct?

TEW

[MeninGatePilgrim]

1 hour ago, sylvie sillince said:

Here is his medal index card

 

From the looks of this Early MiC, and the roll index numbers listed in the box beside 14 Star, your ancestor definitely was issued a 14 Star. So that is definitely out there somewhere. Whether the Pair was returned to the medal office never to be sent out to your ancestor again is unclear. 

 

The 1922 amendment to the "ret'd" annotation could just be a change in the index number corresponding to the roll (Medal Office's roll recording 'returned medals') that H. Brown's returned pair is filed under.

 

My two-pence is that he most probably never recieved his pair, so its worth a shot applying to the MoD stating the research you compiled shows no categorical proof that the British War Medal and Victory Medal were ever sent out to him. You may wish on that basis, to request they be issued/ replacements issued in their place. Though bear in mind that technically due to his desertion, he forfeited the right to these medals by order of the War Office.

 

Keep an eye out on the open market for his Star, it will read:

 

3-6553 PTE. H. BROWN, BEDF. R.

Edited 18 February , 2021 by MeninGatePilgrim
Typo

[kenf48]

Medals were returned against a Certified Receipt Voucher (CRV), and issued, or more accurately in the case of other ranks where for any reason they were not sent out by registered post,  against an  Issue Voucher or IV, invariably seen on officer entries as they had to apply for medals.

 

I’d agree he did not seek the reinstatement of the 14 Star.  His BWM and VM, which should also be named to the Bedfordshire Regiment, were returned in 1922, that is after the ACI that medals of men convicted of desertion were no longer forfeit. 

 

1 hour ago, MeninGatePilgrim said:

 

From the looks of this Early MiC, and the roll index numbers listed in the box beside 14 Star, your ancestor definitely was issued a 14 Star. So that is definitely out there somewhere. Whether the Pair was returned to the medal office never to be sent out to your ancestor again is unclear. 

 

 

The 14 Star  Roll clearly shows the medal was forfeit.

 

TEW has earlier described the entries on the 14 Star roll and compared it to the entry against that of Pte Bandy which shows his medal entitlement was resubmitted on a supplementary entry. 

 

I would think you have a good case to apply for all three  medals as described in the linked thread from 2014 above.

 

 

[MeninGatePilgrim]

25 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

 

The 14 Star  Roll clearly shows the medal was forfeit.

 

 

Aha, very good, this is something that I did not check. There is no indication of this on his MiC.

 

Best of Luck Silvie in your application for all three medals - it's good to see we have the facts of the matter ironed out now

[TEW]

The only remaining problem seems to lie with the MOD. Website is contradicting itself slightly but the actual form states no pre-WW2 are being reissued.

 

Form is dated May 2020 and the last medals noted on this forum reissued by them is March 2020 so they may have changed the goalposts.

 

Unless anyone knows of a post May 2020 issue?

 

Another small point as it seems he bought himself an MM. He would have stood out in a crowd just wearing an MM, a bit of a risky move I think.

TEW

[sylvie sillince]

He was, I'm afraid, a bit of a lad. He ground the MM down and had his own name engraved on it - a ruse that was not uncommon apparently for a man who liked to sit in a pub and have people buy him drinks for bravery. He was a great horseman who drove a team of six with ammunition carts during the war.  He lived the rest of his life with a debilitating injury to his lower arm and hand and unfortunately relied heavily on beer to see him through!

I'd love to return the MM but there is no way of knowing to whom it belonged.

I must thank you all for your help, I will start form filling tomorrow.

[sylvie sillince]

Thanks to everyone. Whilst I follow up the leads, can someone tell me what CRV stands for please? thanks again