Tracing correct relative

[wandererpaul]

Linda, Did you pick up the note that the 1939 Register record, at Hill Crest High Street Dunmow Essex, isn't Gertrude Thompson but a Gertrude Janikoun?

 

Gertrude Thompson is, therefore, still to be found in the 1939 Register, if she was registered that is.

[Linda H]

18 minutes ago, wandererpaul said:

Janikoun

Sorry I am hopeless with ipad selection.  I saw that and have sent everything to Andrew.  To be honest, I don’t know what to make of it.  But we know where Gertrude died and when.  I know that is correct as I visited the address in London a number of times.  We also know when Frederick died.  It would be nice to know what happened to Gertrude in between for sure.  How odd to get two Gertrudes (surname is illegible on the 1939) with the same birthday, both dressmakers.  I am sure Andrew will have a good look at that with all the other information you have kindly supplied.  I recall the other members of the household had their names transcribed incorrectly too, but Andrew is much better at all this than me.

 

Thank you

[wandererpaul]

But the house - Hill Crest High Street - isn’t in London. It’s a town named Dunmow, in Essex. Which is near Braintree.

 

The illegible surname is “JANIKOUN”. It’s quite clear. I don’t see how it’s “Thompson”. The birthdate 4/2/90 is for Gertrude Janikoun.

[Linda H]

28 minutes ago, wandererpaul said:

But the house - Hill Crest High Street - isn’t in London. It’s a town named Dunmow, in Essex. Which is near Braintree.

Yes, I hear what you saying, and Andrew is going to look into it all.  Gertrude lived in East Ham in the sixties (may well have been there a lot longer), and although that is London now, looking at where it was classed as in the mid sixties, it is down as Essex.  Odd, but that is what came up as I recall.  Gertrude's sister, Daisy, lived in Essex (Ilford)  Hopefully Andrew will make sense of it all over the weekend, but as you say, Gertrude was somewhere other than where we thought in 1939.

[PRC]

5 hours ago, Linda H said:

 I believe we have the wrong birth certificate as the mother is listed as Ann, and Andrew knew the mother to be Mary Jane, as you also say.

 

On 07/06/2020 at 10:05, PRC said:

Longhirst was then in the Morpeth Civil Registration District, but the only likely birth I can see in that District wasn’t recorded until the January to March quarter, (Q1), of 1895. I couldn’t track down a mothers’ maiden name for that one but someone with access to Ancestry \ FindMyPast may have better luck. There is a baptism record at Bothal, Northumberland for a Frederick Thompson born 2nd January 1895, parents David & Anne. Bothal was also in the Morpeth Civil Registration District so likely that one can be ruled out.

 

I don't suppose the person who informed the Registrar of the birth was the father by any chance? Was the name David and did they live at Bothal

 

Cheers,

Peter

[The Inspector]

Hi All

In 1911 140 Rectory Road is registered as having 3 rooms (Alexander Mitchell) the census shows the address as 140 St.George's Terrace but the Schedule (next page) gives the correct address as Rectory Rd. No 138 is listed as having 7 rooms (Henry Youll )

Linda... The distance from 129 Dawlish Dr, Ilford (Daisy Cuthberta Percy Harris's  address in 1939, Gertrude's sister) to East Ham is just over 3 miles. Can you recollect anything to do with the East Ham address  for Gertrude in the 60's. The death cert.. shows  it as 47 Goldsmith Ave, East Ham. Plenty of willing researchers on the GWF ...many hands..etc.....

Regards Barry

[Linda H]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

don't suppose the person who informed the Registrar of the birth was the father by any chance? Was the name David and did they live at Bothal

 

According to Frederick's wedding certificate, his father was Thomas (deceased)

3 minutes ago, The Inspector said:

The death cert.. shows  it as 47 Goldsmith Ave, East Ham

Yes, that is the address I visited for certain.  She was a lodger, Mrs Cummings had the flat downstairs, Gertrude upstairs.  Could have been two separate flats of course, I always just assumed she was a lodger.  I believe they are flats now, I remember looking it up recently.

Edited 12 June , 2020 by Linda H

[PRC]

1 hour ago, Linda H said:

According to Frederick's wedding certificate, his father was Thomas (deceased)

 

Hi Linda,

 

I was actually asking about the other details on the birth certificate you have received,

 

Thanks,

Peter

[The Inspector]

Hi Linda and all,

Trying to track down Gertrude.........

1911 , 47 Goldsmith Ave, Manor Park, Ilford, Essex  was occupied by Henry Denton Cumming (A Warehouseman at a Tailors) , his wife Eliza Martha (Nee Brooker, d.1974, Havering, London.) and 2 children. occupying 6 rooms, the 7th was occupied by an 80 year old , Elizabeth Fall, b. 1831 Magdalen, Norfolk. Next page on census. She died 1916. West Ham, Essex.

 In 1939 the Cummings are still there minus the children but with another "lodger" Harold J David. He was Pte 71940 RAMC  Discharged 4.2.19 Records Ancestry. He married Ellen Ruth Cumming in 1924. Henry's daughter.

The 1939 register shows No. 47 as Schedule Nos. 43, 44 and 45, therefore it would appear the house is divided into 3 dwellings. 3 entries are redacted, it is possible that Gertrude is one of them.

Henry Denton Cumming died at No.47. on 31st March, 1964. Probate to the "lodger, son in law" Harold John David....looking

Regards Barry

[Linda H]

2 hours ago, PRC said:

 

Hi Linda,

 

I was actually asking about the other details on the birth certificate you have received,

 

Thanks,

Peter

Told you my head is scrambled. Mother Ann. No father listed. This is the WRONG Fred, I can’t make out where he was born. Does not say who notified, but no father on certificate 

Edited 12 June , 2020 by Linda H

[Linda H]

1 hour ago, The Inspector said:

Hi Linda and all,

Trying to track down Gertrude.........

1911 , 47 Goldsmith Ave, Manor Park, Ilford, Essex  was occupied by Henry Denton Cumming (A Warehouseman at a Tailors) , his wife Eliza Martha (Nee Brooker, d.1974, Havering, London.) and 2 children. occupying 6 rooms, the 7th was occupied by an 80 year old , Elizabeth Fall, b. 1831 Magdalen, Norfolk. Next page on census. She died 1916. West Ham, Essex.

 In 1939 the Cummings are still there minus the children but with another "lodger" Harold J David. He was Pte 71940 RAMC  Discharged 4.2.19 Records Ancestry. He married Ellen Ruth Cumming in 1924. Henry's daughter.

The 1939 register shows No. 47 as Schedule Nos. 43, 44 and 45, therefore it would appear the house is divided into 3 dwellings. 3 entries are redacted, it is possible that Gertrude is one of them.

Henry Denton Cumming died at No.47. on 31st March, 1964. Probate to the "lodger, son in law" Harold John David....looking

Regards Barry

So I remembered Mrs Cummings, or Cumming as it should be. Amazing, I can’t remember what I had for breakfast yesterday 😏. I have no idea where you find this. As Gertrude has been dead for fifty plus years, you would think she would not be redacted. Definitely just upstairs and downstairs when Gertrude was there, she had the entire top floor, I can still picture it. 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

10 hours ago, Linda H said:

I can’t make out where he was born.

I can't  either, but it's  something like Redgwood RSD, in the sub district of Bedlington in the Morpeth Registrstion District. I can't  see it listed in the wiki page. 

Edit: It might be Pegswood.

RSD stands for Rural Sanitary District, which the next division up from parishes in the local government chain.

'Sanitary as they were  responsible for supplying  clean water, the drains, and Public Health. Also the workhouse..

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rural_districts_in_England_and_Wales_1894–1930

Edited 13 June , 2020 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[tootrock]

Pegswood is a village near Morpeth.

Martin

[PRC]

11 hours ago, Linda H said:

Told you my head is scrambled. Mother Ann. No father listed. This is the WRONG Fred, I can’t make out where he was born. Does not say who notified, but no father on certificate 

 

1 hour ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

I can't  either, but it's  something like Redgwood RSD, in the sub district of Bedlington in the Morpeth Registrstion District. I can't  see it listed in the wiki page. 

Edit: It might be Pegswood.

 

50 minutes ago, tootrock said:

Pegswood is a village near Morpeth.

 

On 08/06/2020 at 12:01, PRC said:

I was obviously not on my finest form yesterday as I checked the birth records again for the Frederick Thompson whose birth was registered in the Morpeth District in Q1 1895 and can now see that the mothers' maiden name is Thompson as well - so either a single parent of a case of a Thompson married to a Thompson.

 

And in theory If the child baptised at Bothal shown as born 2nd January 1895 was indeed born at Bothal, or anywhere else in the Morpeth District, then the evidence would suggest the two records should be the same individual. The Bothal baptism child couldn't legally be registered in Q2 - that starts more than 42 days after the birth.

 

But the couple proved incredibly elusive to track down on the Census record, where I was looking to confirm where that Frederick is stated to have been born. On Fredericks' baptismal record father David is recorded as a Pitman, and the family were living at Pegswood. Going through the baptismal records for St Andrew, Bothal, there is also a baptism for a William Thompson, (born 10th February 1893, baptised 12th March 1893) whose father David was a Pitman and the family was living at Pegswood. Mothers' forename is shown as Ann. In the matching civil birth record that mothers maiden name is shown as Thirtle. Possibly the reference to mothers' maiden name as Thompson is a transcription error and so the GRO source shouuld be checked out - @travers61 ?

 

Which brought me on to marriages. I couldn't find anything in the parish records but there is a (potential) civil record for the marriage of a David Thompson to an Ann Thirtle in the Morpeth District in Q4 of 1891. In the absence of a parish record I'd look confirm that from a subsequent census, but even trying surname as Thomson I still can't find the family.

 

So it looks like the birth certificate is the route to ruling that particular Frederick in or out.

 

 

Can't quite quite reconcile mother Ann an umarried domestic servant on the birth cerificate with wife Anne at the baptism, but two Frederick Thompsons born at Pegswood on the 2nd January 1895 to a mother with a very similar first name seems an awfully big co-incidence.

 

I'd suggest common law marriage but I'd have thought it easier to lie to the Registrar than the Priest - a fine versus a mortal soul. That's an interesting dilemma !

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

[Madmeg]

On 08/06/2020 at 03:30, Matlock1418 said:

George R beat me to it - it is a Widow's Pension Card [from a batch printed 1/1932]

However there is a slight problem with only posting extracts - you don't see all

In the Awards references there are two ref. nos.  2/MT/2711 dated 25/1/33 [which matches with a Pension Ledger - see below] and also 11.W.59227 dated 27/1/33 [this is a Widow's pension reference in region 11 (interestingly for London and the South East) - sadly more details now lost]

 

Image thanks to the Western Front Association & Fold3

This is the corresponding Pension Ledger for Thompson 76662 [front] - It appears to be for a Disability [Chronic Bronchitis and spinal curvature - aggravated by service - 40-50%] to 1930 [or 1933 which would match the PC extract] then changes to a Widow's which would match the above and a note initialled PC 

[there are some pension notes 1921-1922 on the rear which you may perhaps wish to access in the future for payments if we have found 'your' man - don't think they do much at the present]

Perhaps of most interest = Don't know if the other two addresses details on this Disability / Pension Ledger help at all = 33 Bell Street, Newcastle on Tyne [@ 24.7.1919] and 1 Percy Street, Bellingham, Northumberland [Later]

:-) M

 

I note that the DoB on this record is given as 1891

 

[PRC]

1 minute ago, Madmeg said:

 

I note that the DoB on this record is given as 1891

 

Are you reading that as a 'tick' through the 1 rather than a stylised 4?

 

As it's just the year it may be more likely to have been calculated rather than exact. As the age of the attestation works out to the last few days of 1893 it would be very easy to over simplify  - along the lines of most of the genealogy sites

 

Cheers,

Peter

[Madmeg]

Wiliam Thomas Thompson the possible uncle of Bog Hall- is quite easy to track - born at Whalton in 1864. I have checked out the census records and there does not appear to be a brother Thomas. 

If the above cert if actually Fredericks I would suggest that he made up a father's name for the marriage cert which was quite common if you didn;t knwo who it was!

[Madmeg]

5 minutes ago, PRC said:

 

Are you reading that as a 'tick' through the 1 rather than a stylised 4?

 

As it's just the year it may be more likely to have been calculated rather than exact. As the age of the attestation works out to the last few days of 1893 it would be very easy to over simplify  - along the lines of most of the genealogy sites

 

Cheers,

Peter

Yes it definitely looks like a tick through a 1 to me- it is different than the other 4's on the page- but then different handwriting- if you look from a distance it looks like a tick - and matches other apparent ticks on the page- up close it does look more like a 4.  That said I have done enough chasing of my own lot to place little rellance on the accuracy of dates specially those filled in by others- one relative has about 4 different birth years over different census while his father gained four years when he moved in with the daughter and the son in law started filing out the forms. I always check at least two years either side of any stated dates.

 

I have found a Frederick Edward b in Castle Ward (which contains Whalton) in 1893.

Edited 13 June , 2020 by Madmeg

[Madmeg]

The Family search transcription of Thomas and Mary Jane of Annfield Co Durham gives Thomas occupation as NER Rolleyman.......

[PRC]

47 minutes ago, Madmeg said:

Yes it definitely looks like a tick through a 1 to me.

 

If anyone working with me did that I'd shoot them :-) Makes no sense when there is space beside it for a tick and can only cause confusion. Unfortunately it looks like a one off addition to the card, so there is nothing to compare it to as far as I can see.

 

The RAMC man attested on the 1st November 1915 and gave his age as 21 years and 308 days.

 

(Courtesy FindMyPast)

 

I'm of the opinion that the 1895 birth is a complete red herring. The census details for a Frederick born circa 1893/1894 Longhirst, Northumberland to a 'mother' Mary Jane Thompson married to Thomas has been pretty much done to death, and Linda has posted the marriage certificate for Frederick and Gertrude showing that Fredericks' "father" Thomas was a Rolleyman.

 

To my mind what is still outstanding is:-

 

 - Civil proof of birth (and baptismal would be nice!)

 - Confirmation that the Mary Jane Thompson of 140 Rectory Road, Bensham was the widow of Thomas

 - Confirmation that the Frederick who married Gertrude was the RAMC soldier

 - Confirmation that the Frederick who died in 1928 was the right man - pension details indicate a possible death in 1930 /1933 but that is not clear.

 - Some indication of how the Gertrude Thompson who died a widow of a soldier called Thompson, no first name shown, was backtracked to the 1917 marriage

 

I have some thoughts on the birth of Frederick, but to my mind until it can clearly be shown that Linda's relative was married to Private 76662 Frederick Thompson, RAMC, there isn't much point putting more energy into connecting the RAMC man to his earlier civil records as the basis for the search - the 1917 marriage - could be incorrect.

 

Apologies if I've missed something along the way - this has turned into a megathread

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

 

Edited 13 June , 2020 by PRC
Typo

[The Inspector]

Hi Linda and all,

Don't presume it is the wrong Fred just because his mother's name is different to what you believe it should be. He may well have been handed over to another relative to be brought up....it happened a lot. It took me years to trace my real grandmother.

Regards Barry

Edited 13 June , 2020 by The Inspector

[Madmeg]

Finally found the Frederick at Bothal in 1901- born in Longhirst same as the son of Thomas and Mary Jane in 1911- and Mary J is a visitor of William Watson. 

 

Right- finally got some clues here

 

Mary J Thompson appears Mary J BROWN in 1891 when she is living with William Watson of Morpeth a coal miner.

 

William Brown is married to Elizabeth Brown and Mary J is shown as "wife's daughter" (pretty common in mining families to have lots of remarriages of women and step children). There are also Minnie L Brown and William D Brown wife's daughter and son . Minnie is still with William Watson in 1901 with her daughter Lillie Brown- presumably illegitimate.

I haven't been able to find a marriage for Thomas Thompson to Mary J Brown (although she may have married previously- I haven;t checked them all out yet). 1911 states they married in 1892 but there is no marriage undier the name Brown that year or 1891 or 93.  "The most likely marriage was that of a Thomas Thompson to a Mary Jane Brown which was recorded in the Morpeth District in the October to December quarter, (Q4), of 1891."- doh aways check previous postings :-) - couldn;t find it on FreeBMD and that's usually pretty good! anyway that definitely ties Mary J Brown stepdaughter of William Watson to Thomas Thompson.

 

I note that Frederick is considerably older than the other children, the big gap is rather unusual.

 

I'm having trouble with the "uncle" though. Thomas was born at Preston , Northshields according to the census while William Thomas was b at Whalton and doesn;t appear to have a brother Thomas- could they be relatives of Gertrude?

 

 

Edited 13 June , 2020 by Madmeg

[Linda H]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

Civil proof of birth (and baptismal would be nice!)

 - Confirmation that the Mary Jane Thompson of 140 Rectory Road, Bensham was the widow of Thomas

 - Confirmation that the Frederick who married Gertrude was the RAMC soldier

 - Confirmation that the Frederick who died in 1928 was the right man - pension details indicate a possible death in 1930 /1933 but that is not clear.

 - Some indication of how the Gertrude Thompson who died a widow of a soldier called Thompson, no first name shown, was backtracked to the 1917 marriage

 

1)  Andrew is working on Frederick's birth certificate now, using suggestions from this site.

2)  I have no doubt the Frederick who married Gertrude is the soldier.  We saw the pension record, and after what I assume is Frederick's death, the address for Gertrude was Sunderland, where she was from.

3)  I have sent for the death certificates (same man listed twice, possible inquest)

4)  I knew great aunt Gertrude.  I knew the address where she died.  The death certificate (notified by her niece) lists ....Thomson (soldier deceased). This indicates, to me, his last occupation was soldier.  Probably vague as the niece probably didn't know him, just of him from Gertrude.    I know the 1917 marriage is my great aunt Gertrude.  Not many Gertrude Harbottle marry a Thompson, who later turns out to be a soldier (as listed on her death certificate)

 

I feel sure all the things we have are accurate, except finding the correct birth certificate.  We already have Mary Ann (who people agree from the pension records is Frederick's mother)  married to Frederick's father, and have her married to Thomas.  I know Andrew has found all this on various ancestry sites.

 

We know that that the people at Bog Hall were Frederick's relatives, I seem to recall uncle and cousin there were the witnesses at Frederick's marriage to Gertrude.  

[Linda H]

2 hours ago, The Inspector said:

i Linda and all,

Don't presume it is the wrong Fred just because his mother's name is different to what you believe it should be. He may well have been handed over to another relative to be brought up....it happened a lot.

That is very true.   A number of my relatives were brought up by other members of the family due to early deaths of mothers/fathers etc.

[The Inspector]

6 hours ago, Linda H said:

I feel sure all the things we have are accurate, except finding the correct birth certificate.  We already have Mary Ann (who people agree from the pension records is Frederick's mother)  married to Frederick's father, and have her married to Thomas

Hi Linda

I know it is confusing BUT Mary Jane Brown not Mary Ann.

Regards Barry