Tracing correct relative

[PRC]

26 minutes ago, The Inspector said:

Can someone please explain the annotation on the 1939 register for Gertrude "FALLINGON" ,Ancestry.. b.2.2.1890, Dressmaker. "Hill Crest", Dunmow, Essex. Above her occupation is "BXA 2.6.48." 

FindMyPast has just transcribed the surname as “??Son” and shown the address as Hill Crescent, High Street, in the Dunmow Rural District Council area.

The 1939 Register formed the Registry for the post-war  N.H.S. Amendments would have to have been initialled by the clerk concerned – in this case “BXA”.

I don’t think the amendment relates to a marriage. On the original register the birthdate for Gertrude was shown as the 2^nd February 1890. I think the amendment is to show it as the 4^th February 1890.

Cheers,

Peter

 

P.S - still scratching my head thinking about your PM. Will get back to you :-)

[The Inspector]

Thanks for that Peter

Barry

[davidbohl]

It might be a 1939 register area code

Dave

 

BXA

BXZ

Willesden

MB

Middlesex

[PRC]

Dave,

 

My understanding is that the 1939 Register reference number was what went on your ID Card and Ration Book, and subsequently became your NHS number. It didn't change on change of address, so shouldn't be any need to amend the code to that for any other part of the country in 1948.

 

Relevant line in the Register looks like this:-

 

(Courtesy FindMyPast)

 

Hopefully that will make it clearer why I think it's a correction to her date of birth.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

13 hours ago, The Inspector said:

Can someone please explain the annotation on the 1939 register for Gertrude "FALLINGON" ,Ancestry.. b.2.2.1890, Dressmaker. "Hill Crest", Dunmow, Essex.

Gertrude Falingon is indexed as DDHC 202/1. on page 3 of 18   Whereas I make her DDHC 16/4  (in Edward Ridgewell's household).

And how come there is a Gertrude JANIKOUN DOB 2/2/1890 (amended to 4/2/1890) at the same address, but on a different page of the register?  She is DDHC16/4 on page 17 of 18.

 

I suspect Falingon is misspelt  as Janikoun or vice versa. I think Janikoun is a name that occurs elsewhere on the register amongst the tailoring profession.

 

Gertrude Fallingon's entry is torn or creased an the name is hard to decipher, I don't think I can stretch it to Thompson though:

Falingon

Janikoun

 

There are other Gertrudes available in Essex born on February 2nd:

Other Gertrudes

 

Edited 10 June , 2020 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr
Edited to add links to the Gertrudes

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

They used these registers as the index of NHS Numbers, and women's new surname on marriage was entered at the time of marriage.

An aunt of mine married in the early 1960s, and her details are shown being amended at that time.

Edited 9 June , 2020 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[The Inspector]

Hi All

Thanks folks....Janikoun it is then.....so where is Gertrude Thompson.......? puzzled......

Regards Barry

[wandererpaul]

Gertrude Janikoun - as named in the 1939 register - died in Q1 1989 Wandsworth. It also shows the correct date of birth as amended on the register, 4/2/1890.

 

https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=BMD%2FD%2F1989%2F2%2F77360022

 

She also went to South Africa in 1950.

 

https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=TNA%2FBT27%2F1659000112%2F00190

Edited 10 June , 2020 by wandererpaul

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

I've edited my post #80 to add links

Edited 10 June , 2020 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[Matlock1418]

On 08/06/2020 at 14:05, PRC said:

Thank God we got back to the Great War before the admins closed us down for turning this into a Genalogy Forum

 

The Frederick Thompson who was 76662 Royal Army Medical Corps has a surviving service record ...

The genealogical thing is very important [but very definitely not my forte] - Are we absolutely sure we have got onto the right soldier?

Sorry if I have missed it - but I don't seem to be able to see a definitive linking between Frederick Thompson, Gertrude and a number/unit.

There seems to be a lot of circumstantial stuff, but ... ???

Just wondering [perhaps just need it pointing out to me] - No point in chasing after the wrong soldier.

:-) M

[PRC]

1 hour ago, Matlock1418 said:

The genealogical thing is very important [but very definitely not my forte] - Are we absolutely sure we have got onto the right soldier?

Sorry if I have missed it - but I don't seem to be able to see a definitive linking between Frederick Thompson, Gertrude and a number/unit.

There seems to be a lot of circumstantial stuff, but ... ???

Just wondering [perhaps just need it pointing out to me] - No point in chasing after the wrong soldier.

:-) M

 

Hi,

 

Struggling to keep all the ins and outs in my head and so apologies if I've misunderstood. Linda seems to be working back from the relative she actually knew (Gertrude) to a husband who had died some years before and was stated to have been a soldier on Gertrudes death certificate. In posts 40 & 41 she and her researcher seems certain that the RAMC man is that soldier. What appears to my mind to still be in doubt is the bit of his life before he joined up. A candidate had previously been identified before Linda came to the forum, but to me it looks like that identification at a minimum may have a flaw and in a worst case may be the wrong person altogether. Lindas' researcher was going to review everything they had in the light of what the collective Brains Trust of the Forum has uncovered plus of course the oft mentioned birth certificate for 'a' Frederick Thompson is on it's way.

 

I was planning to take my foot of the gas on this one for a bit and see what comes back from that review.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

[Matlock1418]

2 minutes ago, PRC said:

I was planning to take my foot of the gas on this one for a bit and see what comes back from that review.

 

Not having a pop at you PRC.

Just being a bit of a cautionary 'Doubting Thomas' - for OP and all contributors

BC will no doubt be of interest.

Hope OP can give us all an update sometime.

Good luck Linda.

:-) M

[travers61]

17 hours ago, PRC said:

Dave,

 

My understanding is that the 1939 Register reference number was what went on your ID Card and Ration Book, and subsequently became your NHS number. It didn't change on change of address, so shouldn't be any need to amend the code to that for any other part of the country in 1948.

 

Relevant line in the Register looks like this:-

 

(Courtesy FindMyPast)

 

Hopefully that will make it clearer why I think it's a correction to her date of birth.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

 

The date the dob was amended was possibly driven by registering at a doctors in advance of the NHS starting on 5th July 1948, and finding the dob had been wrong on the register all along.

 

If this was not the case other reasons could have been re-issue of a lost ID card or ration book, change to rationing system etc.

[The Inspector]

Hi All

I firmly believe that until we get the "family" correct then we can not be sure we have the right soldier. I have done my own research into the family history but will keep the findings under wraps until Linda gets back to us. There is sufficient evidence already to suggest some relationships just don't add up.

Agree with "wandererpaul" Gertrude Janikoun (1939 reg) died 1989, (Post 83) Gertrude Thompson died 1967. So where is the connection Linda??

Regards Barry

Edited 10 June , 2020 by The Inspector

[The Inspector]

On 10/06/2020 at 09:13, wandererpaul said:

Gertrude Janikoun - as named in the 1939 register - died in Q1 1989 Wandsworth. It also shows the correct date of birth as amended on the register, 4/2/1890.

 

https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=BMD%2FD%2F1989%2F2%2F77360022

 

She also went to South Africa in 1950.

 

https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=TNA%2FBT27%2F1659000112%2F00190

Hi All 

  see public tree on Ancestry      llhttps://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/115765387/person/210141466461/facts

Just to put Gertrude Janikoun out of the picture...she was born in Russia  

Regards Barry 

[Linda H]

I am so sorry, I haven’t had notifications about posts so haven’t checked, but I haven’t been great this past week either.  I have lost track of things.  Frederick’s birth certificate arrived today and I have sent it to my helper in America.  My head is so bad, I am struggling, so will leave things for him to work out if we have the correct birth certificate.

 

We definitely have the correct Gertrude and the correct Soldier Frederick, married to the correct Gertrude.  We just need to see whether we have the correct birth Frederick.  Oh my head.  I can’t concentrate, but if this head ever settles, will have a good read through again. Many, many thanks

[The Inspector]

Hi Linda and ALL.

Having checked with Peter (PRC) regarding the attestation forms for 76662 Frederick Thompson which are on FMP but I can't find them on Ancestry, it confirms the address as 140 Rectory Road, Bensham, Gateshead, Co.Durham.

Probate records on Ancestry for Mary Jane Thompson of 140 Rectory Road, Gateshead  see....https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1904/31874_222366-00067?pid=3293433&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D1904%26h%3D3293433%26tid%3D%26pid%3D%26usePUB%3Dtrue%26_phsrc%3Diyp4646%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=iyp4646&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&_ga=2.217656351.884095654.1590564959-1783877415.1578070585  show she died on 13.8.1917.

If we have the correct Frederick then we have an explanation for his mother not being a witness at his wedding. The attestation papers also confirm Mary Jane as his mother.

The attestation paper has Frederick's  signature albeit quite faint but legible. Comparison with an original copy of the marriage certificate should confirm his identity as the copy is in the Registrar's handwriting.

Look forward to learning the details on the birth cert.

Regards Barry

[Linda H]

2 minutes ago, The Inspector said:

a witness at his wedding. The attestation papers also confirm Mary Jane as

I am on my iPad and struggling with cut and paste.  I believe we have the wrong birth certificate as the mother is listed as Ann, and Andrew knew the mother to be Mary Jane, as you also say. This is all too complicated for my spinning head, but I will send all this to Andrew. 

 

Many thanks, stay safe

[Linda H]

On 08/06/2020 at 13:01, Matlock1418 said:

The most interesting thing to me is the last line "8.12.22 - Cancel allowance for wife"

= Is there any chance that they might have separated in 1922? [as that might explain such a cancellation]

 

I don't know, I hope not.  All I know is they married 11th October 1917, and Frederick is named as her husband soldier (deceased) on her death certificate in 1967.  Maybe they were just tight and difficult with pensions, as they are these days (not military, in general).  Heck, my NHS pension dies with me, my family don't get a penny.  Men, on the other hand, have their pension passed to their wife on death, but that's another story and gets me really rattled!

[Linda H]

On 08/06/2020 at 14:05, PRC said:

He was in the Military Hospital at Eastbourne by the 23rd September 1917 as a patient and possibly didn't go back overseas again before the end of the war.

Interesting, thank you.  It looks like he married Gertrude (October 1917) after coming out of hospital.  The poor guy was clearly a sick man, and I wonder if all his treatments in France were due to his poor health rather than injuries.  I have no doubt somebody with lung problems would not do too well sleeping out in the wilds. 

On 09/06/2020 at 19:51, The Inspector said:

Is it possible  that 2.6.48 refers to a date of marriage for Gertrude? Eg. Sunderland. 2nd qtr 1948 a Gertrude Thompson married one Thomas Nelson, 1a, 2052.

Gertrude died Gertrude Thompson, so didn't marry again.  I always knew her as Gertrude Thompson. 

[ss002d6252]

48 minutes ago, The Inspector said:

it confirms the address as 140 Rectory Road, Bensham, Gateshead, Co.Durham.

A few houses along from my old flat.

 

Craig

[Linda H]

1 minute ago, ss002d6252 said:

A few houses along from my old flat.

 

Craig

When I find addresses, I often wonder what type of house my relatives lived in.  I remember aunt Gertrude in London having an outside toilet and no bath!!!  I suppose when I was little that did not bother me, now ... I would not be visiting!

[PRC]

1 hour ago, The Inspector said:

The attestation paper has Frederick's  signature albeit quite faint but legible. Comparison with an original copy of the marriage certificate should confirm his identity as the copy is in the Registrar's handwriting.

 

Don't know if this helps - I upped the contrast to the max and then dialled back the brightness.

 

(Courtesy FindMyPast)

 

18 minutes ago, Linda H said:

When I find addresses, I often wonder what type of house my relatives lived in.

 

21 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

A few houses along from my old flat.

 

Google Streetviews. 140 is the door on the right. Layout suggest builing is split 140 downstairs and 138 upstairs.

 

(Courtesy Google Streetviews)

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

 

 

 

 

 

[ss002d6252]

25 minutes ago, Linda H said:

When I find addresses, I often wonder what type of house my relatives lived in.  I remember aunt Gertrude in London having an outside toilet and no bath!!!  I suppose when I was little that did not bother me, now ... I would not be visiting!

Most are Tyneside flats - upstairs and downstairs flats in most cases. Not the best houses for modern living, even with updating, but quite typical of the local housing of the time. Right door downstairs, left door upstairs.
(#140 was the end of my block - about 4 or 5 houses along).

Craig

[Linda H]

Thank you so much for the photo and explanation.  It looks much nicer than I expected, but no doubt 100 years of improvement in them.  To think the families in those days had a dozen people, plus elderly relatives, with two bedrooms and no indoor loo or bath.  It doesn’t bear thinking about.  If ever a time machine is invented, I certainly won’t be going back over.