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Remembered Today:

Tracing correct relative


Linda H

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I am trying to locate the husband of my great aunt.  With help I discovered that Frederick Thompson, d/b about 1894, married my great aunt by licence in October 1917, presumably as he was called up for service.  We can find no further record of him after that, other than my great aunt was a widow in 1939, and her death certificate shows her a widow, and her husband to have been a soldier.  We assume he was killed in the war.  He lived in Northumberland and with help, we think he joined the Northumberland Fusiliers, and the number the researcher came up with was Labour Corps 514527.  Regiment 1118.  We don’t know if this is the correct Frederick Thompson.  Frederick’s parents were Thomas and Mary Jane.  Wife Gertrude.  Is there any way of checking that this is the correct Frederick?  I would love to know what happened to him, I have no family relatives alive I can ask. 

 

Many thanks for any help you can offer, or where I can find out more.  I am new to all this and going around in circles.

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2 hours ago, Linda H said:

 We assume he was killed in the war.  He lived in Northumberland and with help, we think he joined the Northumberland Fusiliers, and the number the researcher came up with was Labour Corps 514527.  Regiment 1118.

Linda,

Welcome to GWF.  You have certainly to come to the right place to find people who would like to help you.

I have relatively few research facilities, but I shall start - others who have more resources will be likely to follow ...

Without saying the soldier Frederick Thompson 1118 / 514527 identified above is the right man we can say that 1118 / 514527 has a Medal Index Card at the National Archives https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D5255429 (also available at Ancestry) for a British War Medal and Victory Medal.  It appears he first went into theatre as 1118 [Northumberland Fusiliers].  As for any other possible medals or his service record I cannot determine.  He may perhaps have an existing service record [but less than 50/50 as a 'burnt record' as most army SR were destroyed in the the WW2 bombing of the record store] - others are likely to be able to assist with looking for/at such SR if it still exists.

It appears he survived the war as is not recorded at the Commonwealth War Graves Commission

and, more definitively, a Pension Ledger record is available from the Western Front Association and/or Fold3 [a more specialist part of Ancestry] as 514527 [Labour Corps] year of birth 1895 Transferred 13.11.18 [seemingly to Reserve].  It would seem he made a disability claim for Anaemia & Palpatation Due to service and received a pension awarded from 14.11.18 until 22.10.20 when it appears there were No grounds for further award.  Marital status is not recorded. What is most useful is that this ex-soldier gave an address of Trout/Trait St., Dipton, Co. Durham [Street name?]

Would this address match anything you know to help confirm his identity as 'your' Frederick Thompson?

If you have any alternative address(es) then these are likely to assist us all.

Good luck with your search.

:-) M

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Wow thank you.  I hope I am replying to this correctly.  We aren’t sure this is the correct Frederick, but what we do know is that on the 1911 census, aged 17, he was with his parents at West Road, Annfield Plain, Co Durham.  On the wedding certificate in October 1917, married by licence he was staying with his uncle and cousin at Bog Hall (farm), Stannington, Northumberland.  The same address is given for Gertrude, but they may have been staying there just for the marriage, we don’t know.  The person helping me has searched many records, as Frederick Thompson is quite a common name, and came up with two suggestions, this being one of them.  But I have a feeling Frederick must have died in the war, as Gertrude’s death certificate lists her as the widow of Frederick (soldier).   For some reason Gertrude was near London for the 1939 register, and that is where she died in 1967, so no idea why she moved down south.  I did wonder if Frederick survived and was hospitalized down there, but that is just a long shot.  

 

I really appreciate any advice or pointers.  I have Ancestry, but could not find any military record on there but I am not great with all this, I confess.  Of course, he may have been in a totally different regiment.  My helper searched lots in the north east, but came up with this as the dates being the nearest.

 

Edited to add that I just checked and Gertrude’s sister was living down south on the 1939 register, so my best guess is Gertrude moved down there near her sister.  It was Gertrude’s niece who is registered as notifying her death, so the move down south probably had nothing to do with Frederick.  The hunt continues!

 

Also, they had no children, another suggestion that Frederick didn’t survive the war.

Edited by Linda H
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https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/1760428/thompson,-frederick-john/

Is this  him? 
(Don’t forget that many men did not join a local regiment. It’s an easy trap to fall into)

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Nice sleuthing Michelle, if it is the correct one.  I tried Linda's regimental numbers on the CWGC web site without success but your find ticks the "Frederick Thompson", "died in WW1 after 1917" and "married to Gertrude" but the DOB would be ~ 1889 so we'll see what Linda says.

image.png.9910c7b7630325ba918e545985fb1f4a.png

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Thank you for your reply.  This is definitely not “my Frederick”.  Oddly enough, Hartburn is a place I used to live, but nowhere near where Frederick and his family are from.  If a man was conscripted, would that be to a local regiment or anywhere?  I am clutching at straws here I think. Of course, he may well have enlisted.  I do feel sure he died in or shortly after the war, whilst still in the army, due to the fact on Gertrude’s death certificate.  Gertrude had no second name, just Gertrude.  

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He could go anywhere. And before conscription, the same. In the very early days when men were rushing to the colours, men chose regiments because,  for example, they could wear the kilt, or look after horses. 

Michelle 

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6 hours ago, Linda H said:

With help I discovered that Frederick Thompson, d/b about 1894, married my great aunt by licence in October 1917, presumably as he was called up for service.

 

How far have you got with tracing his earlier life through the civil records?

 

On both the 1901 Census of England & Wales, (Fred aged 7 staying I believe with maternal grandparents) and 1911 Census of England & Wales (Frederick aged 17), the place of birth is shown as Longhirst, Northumberland.

 

No match on Soldiers Died in the Great War for anyone born Longhirst with a name that could be a transcription error.

 

Longhirst was then in the Morpeth Civil Registration District, but the only likely birth I can see in that District wasn’t recorded until the January to March quarter, (Q1), of 1895. I couldn’t track down a mothers’ maiden name for that one but someone with access to Ancestry \ FindMyPast may have better luck. There is a baptism record at Bothal, Northumberland for a Frederick Thompson born 2nd January 1895, parents David & Anne. Bothal was also in the Morpeth Civil Registration District so likely that one can be ruled out. I was checking to see if the birth was registered with any middle names. I was also looking for mothers’ maiden name in case he served under that.

 

On the 1911 Census father Thomas is recorded as a N.E.R. ‘Rollyman’ (?), but Frederick has no occupation. If his father got him a job on the railways, (they liked to recruit from families) then he may turn up on a Railway Roll of Honour even if he just served, or in Trade Union details – lots of those on Ancestry \ FMP.

 

Father Thomas and mother Mary Jane are shown on the same census as having been married 19 years.

 

The most likely marriage was that of a Thomas Thompson to a Mary Jane Brown which was recorded in the Morpeth District in the October to December quarter, (Q4), of 1891.

 

Oddly I did come across a Civil Service proof of age record for a Frederick Thompson aka Brown born Morpeth, Northumberland 1893. All I have is a reference  R 58775 172 if that is of use to anyone.

 

The main reason for trying to track down a date of birth was so that a search could be made to see if he stayed in the army post war. Ancestry has a list of those men born pre 1901 whose records are still held by the Ministry of Defence. He could have been a ‘peacetime’ soldier who died in service from natural causes, accident or in one of the many minor skirmishes the British Army fought in between 1919 and 1939.

 

Have you tried tracking down his wife through the electoral registers. I assume she was a similar age to her husband and I believe in that era she would not have got the vote until she was 30. However if her husband is not shown either living with her or as an absent voter registered at the same address, (i.e. because he was away on service), then would help put an end-date on when he might have died.

 

Hope some of that helps,

Peter

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Hi Linda

Any relatives of Gertrude in Monkswearmouth, or called Hepenstall

 

George

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13 minutes ago, George Rayner said:

Hi Linda

Any relatives of Gertrude in Monkswearmouth, or called Hepenstall

 

George

I have an extensive tree for Gertrude, my great aunt, and those names don’t come up at all. 

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41 minutes ago, Michelle Young said:

Thank you, I will plough through these.  My problem is, when I look at links on various sites, up comes the subscription thing.  I subscribe to Ancestry and FindMyPast, and it isn't worth paying a subscription to find one person, especially as I am not even sure where to look.  But I will look through these, thanks again

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Thanks Linda only ask as there is a Frederick Thompson with wife Gertrude  in Pensions who looked a possible

image.png.792601e89f2bdf781c1f05022ffaa037.png

Fold3 via Ancestry

 

George

 

Edited by George Rayner
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CWGC is free. 

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18 minutes ago, PRC said:

How far have you got with tracing his earlier life through the civil records?

We suspect Frederick was born Frederick Thompson Morpeth 1895 J/F/M quarter.  I have been waiting for quite some time for his birth certificate to confirm the mother, but due to Covid things are taking a long time.  We have built quite a tree, supposing this is the correct Frederick, and we are almost certain it is.  If it is the correct Frederick, we know his father is Thomas, who according to the marriage certificate was deceased in 1917.  Mother Mary Jane Brown.  in 1901 (7) he was with his mother as a visitor at a relatives house.  In 1911 he was with his parents and two younger sisters in Longhirst, Northumberland.  We have noticed quite a few transcription errors.  There are quite a few Frederick Thompsons in the family, and to confuse matters more, Thompsons married Thompsons!!  It is a nightmare untangling it.  Gertrude, his wife, was two years older.  We had trouble locating her on the 1939 as they had her year of birth wrong, and the surname completely wrong!  My helper somehow managed to find her, and it is most definitely her on the 1939 register, as a widow, somewhere near London.  As I say, her sister lived in Essex in 1939, so she probably moved down to be near her sister.  We have found no other trace of Gertrude between marriage and 1939 on Ancestry or FindMyPast, but with the poor transcription, probably  not surprising.  I will forward your tips about things to my helper, see if he can unearth anything (I can only manage basic stuff)

 

Many thanks

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7 minutes ago, George Rayner said:

Thanks Linda only ask as there is a Frederick Thompson with wife Gertrude  in Pensions who looked a possible

image.png.792601e89f2bdf781c1f05022ffaa037.png

Fold3 via Ancestry

 

George

 

This is a definite possibility, Gertrude lived in Sunderland before marriage.  This is exciting!  Where did you find this?  What is Fold3??  I don't have access to military things, but this could be a good lead.  Would this  mean she had a military pension?  Is there anywhere to find out more details about this?  Sorry for all the questions.  

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Linda, if you run a CWGC query on any F. Thompson who wasn't from Australia / NZ / Canada etc it comes down to a list of around 95 or so.  If you remove those not aged between 21 and 28 and list their next of kin, there weren't too many of them.  I couldn't find any Gertrude (apart from Michelle's candidate) and not many Mary or Janes.  Not every casualty had a NOK, so here is the list.  PM me if you want the full Excel spreadsheet, as it is not huge.

 

Husband of Ella E. F. Thompson, of 16, Victoria St., High Wycombe, Bucks.

Son of Edward and Crissie Thompson.

Son of Edward George and Alice Maria Thompson, of 5, New Rd., Sudbury, Suffolk.

Son of Elizabeth Thompson, of 5, Beecham St., Morecambe, and the late John Thompson.

Son of Frank Edward and Frances Charlotte Thompson, of 2, Melton Rd., Page Green, Tottenham, London.

Son of George and Francis Thompson, of 24, Mossford St., Bow, London.

Son of Henry and Mabel Thompson, of 140 Lower Oxford St., Castleford, Yorks.

Son of Henry and Minnie Thompson, of 157, Caledonian Rd., King's Cross, London.

Son of Isabella Thompson, of 62, Sheil Rd., Liverpool.

Son of James and Emma Thompson, of 52, Caroline St., Preston, Lancs.

Son of James and Mary Alice Thompson, of 95, Common Lane, Culcheth, Warrington.

Son of John and Mary Ann Thompson, of Dinsdale, Blyth, Northumberland.

Son of John Thompson, of 8, Vernon Rd., Leeds.

Son of Martin and Duella Thompson, of 42, Railway Terrace, Great Harwood, Lancs.

Son of Mr. and Mrs. J. Thompson, late of 2, Furnace St., Wellingborough.

Son of Mr. F. Thompson, of Glentham, Lincoln.

Son of Mrs. Albert Thompson, of 23, Lancaster St., Lewes; husband of Edith Lower (formerly Thompson), of 49, St. John's St., Lewes, Sussex.

Son of Mrs. E. Thompson, of 26, Portland Rd., Shieldfield, Newcastle-on-Tyne.

Son of Mrs. E. Thompson, of 6, Young St., Mill Hill, Blackburn.

Son of Mrs. Emma Thompson, of "Ingleside," East Molesey.

Son of Mrs. Lucy Thompson; husband of Martha Thompson, of Beechy House, Beckingham, Doncaster.

Son of Robert and Anna E. Thompson, of 5, Low Saint Agnesgate, Ripon, Yorks.

Son of Robert and Maria Thompson, of 18, Brinkworth Terrace, James St., Hull Rd., York.

Son of the Rev. George and Lucy Mary Thompson, of 4, Park View Terrace, Stanford Rd., Brighton. M.A.Camb. Served also in Gallipoli and Egypt.

Son of Thomas and Catherine Thompson.

Son of Wanless Thompson, of 271, High St., Gateshead; husband of Jane Ann Thompson, of 2, Hardwicke Terrace, Gateshead-on-Tyne, Co. Durham.

Son of William and Betsy Hannah Thompson; husband of Annie E. Thompson, of 72, Bishop's Rd., Walham Green, London. Native of Mayfield, Ashbourne, Derbyshire.

Son of William and Eliza Francis Thompson, of 9, Gravers St., Chorley New Rd., Horwich, Lancs. Born Dalton in Furness, Lancs.

Son of William and Emily Thompson, of 569, Collyhurst Rd., Queen's Park, Manchester.

Son of William and L. E. Thompson, of 308, Cavendish Rd., Balham, London.

Son of William Henry Thompson, of Hull.

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Hi

Fold3 is behind another paywall in Ancestry and is the transcription of pensions-not yet all of them and this one relates to a Frederick Thompson who was in Royal Army Medical Corps with service number 76662

 

Whether it leads anywhere I am not yet sure...other faster typers will get there soon!

 

George

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Linda,

I think you've established that the genealogy must come first, and the military history must come second.

You must first establish every possible fact about your man before looking for a possible military match.

As we can see, there were lots of Fred Thompsons, both who died and who survived, but it might be possible to pin him down.

 

1) Do you have the marriage certificate? (Edit. Yes I see that you do.)

2) Were there any children? (Birth certificates might provide a clue).

3) Where exactly did he/they live in Northumberland? There are surviving Absent Voters Lists somewhere for Northumberland. These give name, rank, number, regiment and address.

Look at the link to find out more.

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Linda

Do you have a birthdate for Gertrude please?

 

Thank you

 

George

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5 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Linda,

I think you've established that the genealogy must come first, and the military history must come second.

You must first establish every possible fact about your man before looking for a possible military match.

As we can see, there were lots of Fred Thompsons, both who died and who survived, but it might be possible to pin him down.

 

1) Do you have the marriage certificate? (Edit. Yes I see that you do.)

2) Were there any children? (Birth certificates might provide a clue).

3) Where exactly did he/they live in Northumberland? There are surviving Absent Voters Lists somewhere for Northumberland. These give name, rank, number, regiment and address.

Look at the link to find out more.

No children.  There is no record of them together, except the address on the marriage certificate, which is actually his uncle's address.  Bog Hall, Stannington, Northumberland in 1917.  His uncle had farmed there for a number of years.  His uncle and cousin, who lived at the farm, were witnesses at the wedding.    We do have an extensive tree for the man we are almost certain is our Frederick.  Every member added always points back to the Frederick we have sent for the birth certificate for, and we are pretty certain this is the man.  We have parents, cousins, siblings, you name it, and everything always fits in nicely.  We just don't know what happened to Frederick, but as I say, as Gertrude's death certificate states her husband as Deceased Frederick (soldier), we are convinced he died in or very shortly after the war, whilst still in service.  

Edited by Linda H
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3 minutes ago, George Rayner said:

Linda

Do you have a birthdate for Gertrude please?

 

Thank you

 

George

Gertrude Thompson was born Gertrude Harbottle on 2 Feb 1892, though the 1939 register has a different year and completely muddled up Thompson surname!  But most definitely her.  I am reliably informed that the years are often wrong in a census, but birth dates correct, as in this case.  To confuse matters, there was another Gertrude Harbottle born two years later, but I knew Gertrude and know which is the correct one.

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10 minutes ago, George Rayner said:

Hi

Fold3 is behind another paywall in Ancestry and is the transcription of pensions-not yet all of them and this one relates to a Frederick Thompson who was in Royal Army Medical Corps with service number 76662

 

Whether it leads anywhere I am not yet sure...other faster typers will get there soon!

 

Thank you!  My helper is in America (but English) and I believe he has access to military records.  I wish he would wake up and check his emails  :)

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Thank you...it is a very strange name on the 1939 Register!

 

George

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2 minutes ago, George Rayner said:

Thank you...it is a very strange name on the 1939 Register!

 

George

You should see her parents' surname on the 1911 register (they worked away whilst the eldest daughter looked after all the children).  They are down as the same name as the Honorable whatever his name is, owning the stately home!  All the servants had the owners surname.  No wonder this is proving so difficult.  I think the pension record, showing Gertrude a widow in Sunderland is our hottest lead.  It would make sense she went back to her roots, then moved down near London where her sister had moved to.  Her sister's daughter notified Gertrude's death.

 

Would a pension record show details of Frederick?  Where he served, where killed etc?

 

With the help of another forum last year, we managed to trace my great great grandma and find her pauper's grave.  We have now had a memorial plaque placed there, and I get huge comfort knowing she has been remembered now.  Workhouse and her children in an orphanage, the ancestry malarkey certainly reveals heartache.  This is the other side of the family, I should add, so as not to confuse anybody.

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