RN Sennet (straw) hats

[FROGSMILE]

31 minutes ago, RNCVR said:

The China station in the south (around the Hong Kong\Singapore areas) could get quite hot & humid during summer - I was there many many yrs ago!

I do like the photo!

 

Best...Bryan

I was very interested too, in the ship herself.  She looks lethal, but I would not have wanted to be among the gun crew in the lower barbette when there  was a high sea inboard! 

Edited 6 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[RNCVR]

Some of the older prewar Cruisers shipped a fair amount of water in a heavy seaway, their secondary armament was virtually useless in any kind of pitching or yawing seaway. A fair amount of water came in via the Forecastle as well. Some classes of the late Victorian Ironclads were very poor sailors in a rough sea.

Serving on them would have been a bitch in bad weather for sure! 

 

Jackie Fisher realized this when he & his design committee were working on HMS Dreadnought.

 

Bryan

[FROGSMILE]

More Sennet hats.

[RNCVR]

Nice Froggie,  top RPPC - Rating on the right likely a Boy Seaman, he looks pretty young! Rating on his left just starting his career -1 GCB. Wonder if they are related?

 

Middle RPPC - they are deffo VR navy, circa 1870's. Two PO1\c seated front row, no idea on two in rear row, three of them are wezring 'watch stripes' on right shoulders.

 

Really like the 3rd print, also VR navy, he is a 2 GCB PO1\c, Seaman Gunner 1st class. Sennett has a REALLY wide brim, perhaps artistic licence.

 

Best...Bryan

 

 

[Pat Atkins]

Great photos, as always. The middle photograph is from Richard Ellis's studio in Valletta - an interesting man (originally a tightrope-walker from East London), whose photographs extensively documented Maltese life for decades.

 

Pat

 

Wait, Bryan... "watch stripes"?

[RNCVR]

Hi Pat,  Yes, surely we have commented on Richard Ellis of Malta photos on this topic or on others. He was a well know (at the time) &very prolific photographer of RN ships in Malta's Grand Harbour.  He had a studio (possibly more than one) in Malta & photographed many Victorian sailors.

i have a couple very nice books of his ship photos in Malta harbour. I think we owe him a great debt of gratitude for preserving for future generations the ships, officers & seamen of the Victorian\Edwardian era.

 

Watch Stripes - these are those black (they show up black with the orthochromatic film of the time) stripes on their right shouders, indictaed which Part of Ship watch they were assigned to upon joining(the ship).  Thus if that ship was operating on a two watch system there would be two colours of those watch stripes - ie: red & green, Port & Starboard watch.  How a Part of Ship Watch system operated on board was determined by the station the ship was on - the Flag Officer would state in his Standing Orders what he wanted for watches in his fleet, or could be determined by the Captain of the ship if he was operating independently of the fleet, say on "Particular Service" as it was called then.

Ships might operation on a 2, 3, or even a 4 watch system.  if a Ship's Captain wanted to operate on a different watch system than the fleet in which that ship was assigned to he had to obtain the permission of the Flag Officer of that Station.  Things were pretty rigid & controlled in each station by the Flag Officer during Victorian times. 

 

Hope this brief explanation assist you Pat,

 

Best Wishes, 

Bryan

[Pat Atkins]

Aha, very clear now - thanks, Bryan.

 

Pat

[RNCVR]

Pat, shown below one of the books I mentioned in previous post 106.  The Ellis photos are superb.

In 2 Volumes & he covers the period 1865-1906 in Vol 1 & 1907-1939 in Vol 2.

 

 

 

Edited 7 July , 2020 by RNCVR

[RNCVR]

Dont wish to get too far off topic but will show a couple of the ships.....Ellis also did some photos of various crew departments......

 

HMS Hibernia, Flagship of Admiral Superintendent of Malta Dockyard. Photo taken in Grand Harbour.

 

 

 

A photo of the Artisans of HMS Hibernia. Pre war photo, circa 1909.

 

Closeup of R. ELLIS, photographer.

Edited 7 July , 2020 by RNCVR

[RNCVR]

Too stay on topic an Ellis photo of the Stokers of HMS Inflexible, Battlecruiser of 1908.

 

The year plaques behind them represent the years of HMS Inflexible's Battle Honours.

 

Note the Sennet hats.....

they were not to be worn ' on the head as 'flat aback' as the two Stokers in back & middle rows, but of course many sailors wore them in this fashion.

 

In the middle row seated, two 1st class PO's, one wearing RN LS medal, & on either side of them two Leading Stokers.

 

Ellis mark in lower left corner...

Edited 7 July , 2020 by RNCVR

[RNCVR]

In the Stokers photo above I expect this was one watch, Inflexible was a Dreadnought Battlecruiser & carried a crew of 1,026 officers & ratings, she would have required a good number of Stokers to man her various boilers & auxiliary machinery.  I dont know the exact number of Stokers that would have made up her crew but expect around 200.

She participated in the Battle of Heligoland Bight 28 Aug, 1914, Battle of Falkland Islands Dec 8, 1914 & was sunk at the Battle of Jutland

31 May -1 June 1916.

 

Best to all....

Bryan

Edited 7 July , 2020 by RNCVR

[FROGSMILE]

What cracking photos Bryan, thank you for posting them.  Below: shore party Jaffa, Palestine, 1919.

 

 

Edited 7 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[RNCVR]

That is a very nice photo Froggie - dressed for shore operations or a parade - rifles, bayonets, high leg\ankle gaitors, & they appear to be standing on what looks like a narrow guage rail track. Rating standing on left has his bayonet fixed.

It has to be some kind of celebration judging by the cleanliness of their white duck suits, & colored signal flags hanging from the upper parts of the building.

The sailors look like they are 'standing easy' awaiting some kind of 'form up to move off' order.

 

Best....Bryan

Edited 7 July , 2020 by RNCVR

[FROGSMILE]

15 minutes ago, RNCVR said:

That is a very nice photo Froggie - dressed for shore operations or a parade - rifles, bayonets, high leg\ankle gaitors, & they appear to be standing on what looks like a narrow guage rail track. Rating standing on left has his bayonet fixed.

It has to be some kind of celebration judging by the cleanliness of their white duck suits, & colored signal flags hanging from the upper parts of the building.

The sailors look like they are 'standing easy' awaiting some kind of 'form up to move off' order.

 

Best....Bryan

 

There were some political troubles in Jaffa in 1919 that marked the extraction of Palestine from the French Syria Mandate (via the King-Crane Commission), perhaps the shore party is connected with that.

 

I like this photo where the rating appears to have a bosun's whistle in his chest pocket.

 

 

Edited 7 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[RNCVR]

Yes, have seen this pocket in use in RPPC's I have. I am uncertain how long this pocked existed but gone by 1WW I think.

Possibly late VR & Edwardian time. The shorter sleeves on his frock & wide silk would assist in dating it to those times also.

 

It could be a Bosun's whistle (actually referred to as a Bosun or Bosun's Call), or a clasp knife which was quite useful during sail & rigging days.

 

I like the sennet tho, frequently seen them turned up like this rating has done, only problem is we are unable to read his cap ribbon!!!

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, RNCVR said:

Yes, have seen this pocket in use in RPPC's I have. I am uncertain how long this pocked existed but gone by 1WW I think.

Possibly late VR & Edwardian time. The shorter sleeves on his frock & wide silk would assist in dating it to those times also.

 

It could be a Bosun's whistle (actually referred to as a Bosun or Bosun's Call), or a clasp knife which was quite useful during sail & rigging days.

 

I like the sennet tho, frequently seen them turned up like this rating has done, only problem is we are unable to read his cap ribbon!!!

 

 

 

I can see the same pocket on all the other the frocks too.  The term 'Call' had slipped my mind.  It appears in the third photo also.

Edited 7 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Pat Atkins]

Wonderful photographs, thanks again both. That upturned brim is reminiscent of the US sailors hats isn't it? My Uncle Des had one from his time in the British Pacific Fleet (he was a matelot on the KGV) which he used when painting ceilings as he claimed it caught the drips very effectively.

[FROGSMILE]

7 hours ago, Pat Atkins said:

Wonderful photographs, thanks again both. That upturned brim is reminiscent of the US sailors hats isn't it? My Uncle Des had one from his time in the British Pacific Fleet (he was a matelot on the KGV) which he used when painting ceilings as he claimed it caught the drips very effectively.

Apparently they were nicknamed cup cakes!  The original ones were much larger and effectively a white cotton version of the Sennet hat worn in hot stations by the 1860s US Navy.  The Sennet was very similar to the British one, even down to USS cap tallies. 

Edited 8 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[RNCVR]

RN Signalers & Telegraphist of HMS DIANA 1903.....

Photo taken from --- "The RN at Malta" book mentioned in post 108 above...

 

Of all the branches in the RN the Signal & Telegraphist branch had the greatest number of stars a rating could earn as he progressed up the rate promotion ladder.

 

Very happy with the interest shown & great variety of sennets being posted in this topic!

Best....Bryan

 

Virtually all of the various stages of Signal & Teleg rates are show in this group photo ...likely the entire dept for a 2nd cl Cruiser.

 

Leading Signalman & Leading Teleg rates, the L.Teleg rate is a bright boy, he has not yet achieved his 1st GCB!

 

PO Teleg on left, PO1\c Yeoman of Sigs on right.  Ch Yeo Of Sigs on his left - Top man in the Dept.

Dont miss the ship's mascot the left PO1 is holding.

 

 

PO1\c Yeo Sig beside the Chief, wearing RN LS medal ---

 

HMS DIANA - 2nd cl Cruiser - their ship,photo taken in March 1903.

 

CPO Yeoman of Signals pair, uncut (fortunately)..... Edwardian \ Geo V \ 1WW period.

 

Same pair in gold wire. Matched sets are very difficult to find, usually they get separated .....

Edited 8 July , 2020 by RNCVR

[Pat Atkins]

Des was a Signalman and his crossed flags look, to the inexpert eye, identical to the 1903 badges on display - was there much variation in style over the years in the Navy? Appreciate this is off track somewhat, so please feel free to ignore the question.

[RNCVR]

Yes Pat, an experienced eye can detect a 1WW rate\rank badge from a say 2WW period rate\rank badge. Its kind of complicated so I wont go into it here, so as not to clog up the topic. I will(eventually) PM you.

 

Better still, PM me pls & shoot me a photo of Des' rate badge I will try to tell you the period. 

 

Thanks much for your interest.....

 

Best...Bryan

Edited 8 July , 2020 by RNCVR

[RNCVR]

Stokers on board  HMS Gloucester (Bristol class Cruiser), circa 1911-12, taken from Vol II of "The RN at Malta".....

 

Considering the environment in which they work, they are in their best whites in this photo!

 

The Stoker on the left seated, as you look at the photo - he is a very new man, not yet even qualified as a Stoker 2nd cl. - his sennet is very white, he has not worn it long enough to apply the gelatine to it to keep its shape in hat blocker.  Gelatine made the sennets darker over time.

Did you spot the rating standing in far back centre wearing sennet?  They have likely come from Sunday Divisions or perhaps Church parade.

 

 

The Stoker front & centre seated - he is a "stripey" - a 3 GCB  Stoker1, likely never wanted or desired promotion ...

 

 

Now I want you to study the 3 badge PO Stoker in the centre carefully - I think I have a CDV of him!!!

 

What do you think  - is he the same man or not ?  Normally they did not wear medals with whites unless it was Admiral's Inspection or some very important affair, he has no medals in this photo, but that does not bother me.... look at his face...

 

His 2nd medal looks like E & W Africa(Victoria's veiled head), & 3rd medal is his RN LS.  No idea what his first medal is!

 

Edited 8 July , 2020 by RNCVR

[horatio2]

2 hours ago, RNCVR said:

RN Signalers & Telegraphist of HMS DIANA 1903.....

Photo taken from --- "The RN at Malta" book mentioned in post 108 above...

Of all the branches in the RN the Signal & Telegraphist branch had the greatest number of stars a rating could earn as he progressed up the rate promotion ladder.

Nice photos but I need some help here. As described, the "1903" image shows telegraphists four years before the Telegraphist Branch was formed in 1907 and not much more than one year after Marconi's first trans-Atlantic transmission in Dec 1901.  Until that time W/T operators were Signals Branch with technical input from the Electrical Branch and all training at HMS VERNON. Transfers from the Signals Branch (and other branches) to Telegraphist did not happen until the new branch formed. Newly-trained Boy Tels from HMS IMPREGNABLE did not go to the Fleet until mid-1908,  My question is: were the pre-1907 Signalmen known as Telegraphists when W/T-trained (i.e. effectively a Signals sub-branch) and were Tel sub-branch badges approved four years before the branch was formed? Or is the HMS DIANA image mis-dated? Advice gratefully received.

Edited 8 July , 2020 by horatio2