RN Sennet (straw) hats

[Jon_B]

17 minutes ago, RNCVR said:

They are very nice photos Jon, thanks for posting them, very nice they are ID'd!  I love the sennet he is wearing.

Did you note his bare feet in the first photo?  This was normal during the age of sail rigged ships & even went into the Ironclad period.

 

Cannot see much of his (right sleeve) rate badge but appears to be a SG (Seaman Gunner).

 

I assume you have his ADM188 Service Record?  Did her do a full career (22 yrs) or just 1st engagement?

 

Best wishes!

Bryan

Yes bare feet, they were tough back then!

 

He was rated LTO (Leading Torpedo Man) in the 1896 photo, and rose to Chief Gunner (T) in WW1, in Marlborough at Jutland. Retired a Lieutenant in 1925, finally promoted to Lt-Cmdr in 1930. Home Guard WW2. Died 1969 age 94. 

 

Jon

 

[FROGSMILE]

Great photos Jon, he was a well set up fellow.  It was interesting to see what looks like an earlier pattern Sennet hat with a looser weave and without a bound edge.

[RNCVR]

Likely several companies manufacturing the sennet hats for the RN.  Likely many were required over the 70 or so years they were worn by ratings, & expect many were blown overboard at sea.

Have another larger big group photo of Stokers on HMS Asia Depot ship wearing sennets. Will post tomorrow (Fri).

[FROGSMILE]

8 hours ago, RNCVR said:

Likely several companies manufacturing the sennet hats for the RN.  Likely many were required over the 70 or so years they were worn by ratings, & expect many were blown overboard at sea.

Have another larger big group photo of Stokers on HMS Asia Depot ship wearing sennets. Will post tomorrow (Fri).

I suspect that the specifications changed over time and possibly by rate too, as the beautiful example you have is very finely woven and presented with its carefully bound edge.

[Pat Atkins]

A question for nautical types re bare feet, if I may temporarily invert the focus of this excellent thread? My grandfather served (by all accounts with a notable lack of enthusiasm) between 1915 and 1919, spending most of his time at Scapa. I distinctly remember him complaining bitterly about having to "wear bare feet on deck in awful weather" while in the Navy. Can this have been true? He wasn't a cheery or nostalgic soul, to put it mildly, but he was held to be honest. Maybe for a particular duty? Or just a minor event which later came to embody the frustration, boredom and discomfort of his war? Cheers,

 

Pat

[FROGSMILE]

18 minutes ago, Pat Atkins said:

A question for nautical types re bare feet, if I may temporarily invert the focus of this excellent thread? My grandfather served (by all accounts with a notable lack of enthusiasm) between 1915 and 1919, spending most of his time at Scapa. I distinctly remember him complaining bitterly about having to "wear bare feet on deck in awful weather" while in the Navy. Can this have been true? He wasn't a cheery or nostalgic soul, to put it mildly, but he was held to be honest. Maybe for a particular duty? Or just a minor event which later came to embody the frustration, boredom and discomfort of his war? Cheers,

 

Pat

That’s a really interesting thought, I’m sure that horatio2, or RNCVR will know.  I think I can recall reading somewhere that no shoes were worn when holystoning the decks, which I understand was a regular duty.

[RNCVR]

As I mentioned in Post 53 I would show this very large group photo (its not a postcard size)of ERA's & Stoker mustered perhaps for an Inspection alongside their depot ship HMS Asia.

 

The ERA's are wearing the "fore & aft rig" of CPO's inthe first two ranks & behind them in many ranks are the Stokers, all wearing sennets.

I expect this is the 1890's to early 20thC period.

They are apparently in the 'stand easy' order likely awaiting the Admiral's arrival, for inspection possibly.

 

Best....Bryan

 

closer view....

 

they seem very interested in the cameraman......

Edited 5 June , 2020 by RNCVR

[RNCVR]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

That’s a really interesting thought, I’m sure that horatio2, or RNCVR will know.  I think I can recall reading somewhere that no shoes were worn when holystoning the decks, which I understand was a regular duty.

 

 

I thought the bare feet practice would have ended by the Great war time, The only wooden deck likely  would have been the QD on the Dreadnoughts, & I expect under normal times it would have still required holystoning, however the Great war was not normal times!

I have never seen a wartime photo of holystoning being done on a Dreadnought.  Perhaps it was still practiced on the pre dreadnought B\S prior to the war.

Scapa at best was very cold windy inhospitable environment & life on those B\S, Cruisers,& Destroyers at best would have been harsh & very boring. There was very little scope for recreation, eventually some facilities for the men were established ashore, but it was sparse.

Officers had it somewhat better but not a great deal better.  & then of course the constant patrols & sweeps of the fleet would be monotonous also with no real hope of action after Jutland. 

I have the autobio of Adm Jellicoe's Secretary during this period & he describes some of the life at Scapa.  It really not some place you would want to spend a lot of time there,but then they had no choice in the matter!

 

Horatio might have more to add on this subject.

 

Best....Bryan

Edited 5 June , 2020 by RNCVR

[RNCVR]

1 hour ago, Pat Atkins said:

A question for nautical types re bare feet, if I may temporarily invert the focus of this excellent thread? My grandfather served (by all accounts with a notable lack of enthusiasm) between 1915 and 1919, spending most of his time at Scapa. I distinctly remember him complaining bitterly about having to "wear bare feet on deck in awful weather" while in the Navy. Can this have been true? He wasn't a cheery or nostalgic soul, to put it mildly, but he was held to be honest. Maybe for a particular duty? Or just a minor event which later came to embody the frustration, boredom and discomfort of his war? Cheers,

 

Pat

 

Pat, if he was a prewar regular he might have been confusing pre war holystoning with wartime.  It was very common in that lead up time to the Great War. Admiral Percy Scott in his autobio rails constantly about "housemaiding" the ships, it was something he fought against all of his career, that and Admiralty incompetance & obstructionism!

 

Holystoning in the Scapa environment would not have been considered 'light duty' by any means & was likely pointless in any event, but then many of the RN routines could be considered pointless by the ratings undergoing these duties. 

 

If you are interested in the conditions in the RN a good read is - "Sober Men & True"  -  this book givesexcellent  firsthand accounts of ratings experiences in the late 19th & 20th Centuries, I have just finished a month or so ago reading it again. 

 

Best....Bryan

[RNCVR]

Another very good book concerning life of ratings in the RN is - 'A Social History of the RN.'

covers the Victorian period thru to the post 2WW period & I think even into the 1960's, its very interesting & reveals much about living conditions & day to day routines seen from sailors viewpoint.

 

I will post shots of the covers of these books later in day or tomorrow, in case any reader might be interested.

 

Thanks, & hope not boring anyone with "too much info"......

Bryan

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

34 minutes ago, RNCVR said:

 

 

I thought the bare feet practice would have ended by the Great war time, The only wooden deck likely  would have been the QD on the Dreadnoughts, & I expect under normal times it would have still required holystoning, however the Great war was not normal times!

I have never seen a wartime photo of holystoning being done on a Dreadnought.  Perhaps it was still practiced on the pre dreadnought B\S prior to the war.

Scapa at best was very cold windy inhospitable environment & life on those B\S, Cruisers,& Destroyers at best would have been harsh & very boring. There was very little scope for recreation, eventually some facilities for the men were established ashore, but it was sparse.

Officers had it somewhat better but not a great deal better.  & then of course the constant patrols & sweeps of the fleet would be monotonous also with no real hope of action after Jutland. 

I have the autobio of Adm Jellicoe's Secretary during this period & he describes some of the life at Scapa.  It really not some place you would want to spend a lot of time there,but then they had no choice in the matter!

 

Horatio might have more to add on this subject.

 

Best....Bryan

I’d been mulling along similar lines about whether holystoning was likely in the midst of war, but thinking about the “ship shape and Bristol fashion” culture that was so central to the RN’s view of itself, and the position of the capital ships as representing the prestige of their flag officers, I wouldn’t be surprised if when in the Flo there was still a routine of scouring the quarterdeck clean, even if it was perhaps by defaulters.  It would be interesting to read some seamen’s accounts of those times, as I feel sure that they would have mentioned it if a notable feature of their lives.

Edited 5 June , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[RNCVR]

3 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

It would be interesting to read some seamen’s accounts of those times as I’m sure they would have mentioned it if a notable feature of their lives.

 

A very regular feature of their lives - COALING!    They absolutely HATED it, both Officers & Ratings.

Virtually every book I have read concerning sailors experiences in the RN mentions the evolution of coaling.

It had to be the worst evolution of the pre war navy.

& many of the 1WW ships were still coal fired.

 

Another big move ahead the RN of the time has to thank Jackie Fisher for is his constant pushing for oil fuel prior to war, & during the war with the Queen Elizabeth class of Dreadnoughts.

[FROGSMILE]

20 minutes ago, RNCVR said:

 

A very regular feature of their lives - COALING!    They absolutely HATED it, both Officers & Ratings.

Virtually every book I have read concerning sailors experiences in the RN mentions the evolution of coaling.

It had to be the worst evolution of the pre war navy.

& many of the 1WW ships were still coal fired.

 

Another big move ahead the RN of the time has to thank Jackie Fisher for is his constant pushing for oil fuel prior to war, & during the war with the Queen Elizabeth class of Dreadnoughts.

Yes, I’ve read about the coaling with great interest, and also about the sheer and unrelenting hard graft expected of the stokers with their trimmer and firemen duties servicing the engine room furnaces, they must have been physically shattered after a period at full speed when chasing an adversary.  No wonder they always look to me in photos to be as hard as nails and immensely Physically strong.

Edited 5 June , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Pat Atkins]

Coaling sounds grim; mind you, I think stokers' lives must've been pretty hard generally. Thanks for taking the time to consider the barefoot conundrum, folks, My grandfather, George Sinclair, was a hostilities-only man not a Regular, so it can't have been a pre-war reminiscence. He's long-dead now and I mostly remember him from my childhood, but I genuinely don't think he'd have made something like this up; however, he was a pretty dour man and might conceivably have developed a long-lasting gripe out of a trivial, one-off inconvenience! His views on Elvis, for example, were pretty extensively medieval yet I doubt if he had ever seen more than a photograph of the man in his life... The only period of his service which seems to have elicited any enthusiasm was with HMS Caradoc in the Baltic and even that meant he would never go abroad again, on the grounds that foreigners would surely shoot at him. Having heard the way he talked about foreigners, mind, I can't really blame them...

 

Anyway, thanks for allowing me to temporarily hijack this esoteric-yet-wonderful thread.

 

Pat

[FROGSMILE]

23 minutes ago, Pat Atkins said:

Coaling sounds grim; mind you, I think stokers' lives must've been pretty hard generally. Thanks for taking the time to consider the barefoot conundrum, folks, My grandfather, George Sinclair, was a hostilities-only man not a Regular, so it can't have been a pre-war reminiscence. He's long-dead now and I mostly remember him from my childhood, but I genuinely don't think he'd have made something like this up; however, he was a pretty dour man and might conceivably have developed a long-lasting gripe out of a trivial, one-off inconvenience! His views on Elvis, for example, were pretty extensively medieval yet I doubt if he had ever seen more than a photograph of the man in his life... The only period of his service which seems to have elicited any enthusiasm was with HMS Caradoc in the Baltic and even that meant he would never go abroad again, on the grounds that foreigners would surely shoot at him. Having heard the way he talked about foreigners, mind, I can't really blame them...

 

Anyway, thanks for allowing me to temporarily hijack this esoteric-yet-wonderful thread.

 

Pat

I’ve been thinking about this matter a bit and I don’t doubt your grandfather one iota.  I believe from everything that I’ve read and heard over the years that when swabbing down the deck and holy stoning the ‘front-of-house’ quarter deck there was a long standing culture to do so in bare feet.  It was something I think to do with bucketloads of water sloshing about and making decks slippery, as well as soaking socks and shoes.  I have some dormant memory from conversations with a long gone uncle, who was a regular, long service rating, about bare feet being able to grip better, and of drying his feet and putting back on socks and shoes after.  Apparently the bottom few inches of trousers were turned up too.  I was quite young when he told me about it, but he painted a vivid picture of hands and knees scrubbing and clanking galvanised buckets with mops.

Edited 7 June , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[RNCVR]

Holystoning.....

[RNCVR]

Coaling, HMCS Niobe, early in war.....  actually they look pretty good for a very dirty job!

They could wear whatever they they wanted when coaling, usually their oldest to hand, thus the variety of clothes on the ratings.

 

A ratings recollections of coaling. He served on HMS New Zealand in the Grand Fleet.... from "Sober Men & True"....

 

"Sober Men & True".....

Edited 7 June , 2020 by RNCVR

[RNCVR]

To get back on Topic..... few more sennet hats RPPC's.......

 

These two  Leading Seaman are SGT1\c - Seaman Gunner Torpedo 1st class, note the torpedo is superimpoised over the gun, indicating their main specialty.  The would have first qualified as a SG, then gone to HMS Vernon(established in 1870 by Jackie Fisher)  for the Torpedo specialty course.

The seated rating has also qualified at a Marksman 1\c. 

Their sennets are of the later type with the banded brim.

 

Thanks, Bryan

 

Closeup showing their insignia.....

Edited 7 June , 2020 by RNCVR

[RNCVR]

Two ratings rigged out in shore operations rig, their belts are actually Army issue but dont exactly know which type - P08 ?

Likely a pre war image.

 

Left - Leading Seaman SG (Seaman Gunner).

[RNCVR]

This is the only RPPC I have of the top of a sennet hat, showing what I think is a compass rose.

 

Its a Victorian image, he is a PO1st cl Seaman Gunner 1\c circa 1885, dressed in his best (Inspection) uniform.  It is quite possible he could be a Captain or Admiral's Coxswain.  

He appears to be wearing Baltic & Crimea campaign medals. 

 

 

 

 

 

Closeup of sennet......

Edited 7 June , 2020 by RNCVR

[FROGSMILE]

Superb photos Bryan, thank you. Yes, the last photo shows p08 web belts, made by the American owned Mills Co, and I think those are p07 bayonets in leather scabbards.

[FROGSMILE]

Fantastic last photo Bryan.  Could it be older than 1885, what makes you pick that date?  I’m sure you’re right as this is your area, but without your guidance I’d have said mid to late 1870s just going by his general appearance.

Edited 7 June , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[RNCVR]

Yes it could well be earlier, the SG rate badge with Crown above came in in1860 & lasted until 1885 so I simply used that end yr date. 

I have other of ratings dressed in this 'formal' rig & they also could be earlier.  This rig lasted up until circa 1885, went out after the Egypt\Soudan campaign of same yr.

[FROGSMILE]

On 07/06/2020 at 16:24, RNCVR said:

Yes it could well be earlier, the SG rate badge with Crown above came in in1860 & lasted until 1885 so I simply used that end yr date. 

I have other of ratings dressed in this 'formal' rig & they also could be earlier.  This rig lasted up until circa 1885, went out after the Egypt\Soudan campaign of same yr.

The particular ‘Monkey Jacket’ that he wears is very evocative and of the same, or similar pattern that first was issued when the old, make-your-own clothing policy, ended in the 1850s.  I think the jacket changed in the 1880s, but am not 100% sure.

 

Edit: ah yes I see now you mentioned 1885 as the change point.  My ID not bad for a Pongo then!

Edited 9 June , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[RNCVR]

Things started to get tightened up after the Crimea after 1855, when the RN first started issuing Clothing Regulations.  Prior to that Captains could pretty much dress their crews in anything they preferred & there were some pretty outlandish "uniforms" of that early Victorian time frame.