Is this an Army or a Navy Uniform please

[johntanner]

All the evidence points to the man in the tropical uniform with Wolsey helmet not being Benjamin Badcock.

[Bird/ Badcock family descendan]

Are you able to tell me what the other numbers mean on the index card please?

[FROGSMILE]

On 02/06/2021 at 13:03, Bird/ Badcock family descendan said:

The above are photo's of Benjamin Lorne Badcock 201314.

The badge on the POW cap look different to the one  on the cap Ben is wearing after war and different again the the badge on the Wolseley helmet.

Very confusing for a non military person.

In the lowermost photo he is definitely wearing the same Gloucestershire Regiment badge as on the Wolseley helmet.  It is a very specific and distinct shape and one of the largest badges worn by an English infantry regiment.  There is no doubt about that identity now that you’ve posted the additional photos.

The other badge in the smaller fragment of a photograph is more problematic, and has the look of one of the Staffordshire Regiments badges, but that’s not definite and a better image would assist greatly with identity.  Can you show the complete image?

 

NB.  It is categoric that none of the photos thus far are connected with the KRRC, who had a distinctive black badge and black buttons that stood out very clearly.  As mentioned above the photos clearly do not feature the person that you think, Benjamin Badcock, unless he was in the Gloucestershire Regiment only at home in the UK.  Medal Index Cards (MIC) generally only list the regiment in which served overseas in a theatre of war.  Have you been able to find a medal roll entry and MIC for him?

 

[Michelle Young]

Page1 very first post shows the complete image. I agree with the Glosters cap badge. 

[FROGSMILE]

13 minutes ago, Michelle Young said:

Page1 very first post shows the complete image. I agree with the Glosters cap badge. 

Thank you Michelle, I lost track!  Reviewing the complete image confirms my belief that that original photo shows the cap badge of the South Staffordshire Regiment.

 

For Bird/Badcock Family Descendant:  it’s important to understand that the war became industrialised in every respect that you can imagine, including that of manpower (and womanpower too for that matter), and it turned into a ruthless process of supply and demand.  Although a man might join a particular regiment at the beginning of his military journey, he might then serve in many more as the fickle fates of fortune propelled him along.  This was especially common if wounded and then recovered, as many men were sent back to an entirely different regiment or, if still inhibited from full fitness, to the Labour Corps instead.  However, if a man was captured and became a prisoner of war, then he would of course no longer be compelled by fortune to change regiment and will most usually be seen in POW photos wearing the cap badge of the last regiment with which he served.

Edited 2 June , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Michelle Young]

On his grave in New Zealand does it give information about his military service? Could the A/201314 just be a grave reference number? Is the number what you are basing your searches on? 

[Bird/ Badcock family descendan]

[Michelle Young]

I still ask if the number is just a grave marker number? Does it say on his grave KRRC? 

[Bird/ Badcock family descendan]

Hi Michelle, Thank you for your assistance.

Below is the plaque on the grave. 

 

[Michelle Young]

As has been mentioned, none of the photos posted show a soldier badged to the KRRC, so they cannot be Benjamin unfortunately. 

[Bird/ Badcock family descendan]

This is our grandfather, the address is correct and the birth date is correct, have another photo of him wearing a uniform.

Will try to get it to you tomorrow.

Once again thank you for your time and assistance. 

 

201314 Pte Benjamin Badcock 1/9 London Regiment captured Ypres 16 August 1917 wounded left hip date f birth 31 March xx 13 barclay Street St Pancras list of 27 Sep 1917 at Limburg 201314 Pte Benjamin Badcock B Company Western Front 16 Aug 1917 [wounded] posterior (from) Lazarett Hamburg date of birth 31 March 1898 16 Nov 1917 at Parchim 9 Feb 1918 at Gustrow photos of the camp http://www.guestrow-history.de/uebersicht-dernummerierten-fotopostkarten

[FROGSMILE]

On 02/06/2021 at 19:36, Bird/ Badcock family descendan said:

This is our grandfather, the address is correct and the birth date is correct, have another photo of him wearing a uniform.

Will try to get it to you tomorrow.

Once again thank you for your time and assistance. 

 

201314 Pte Benjamin Badcock 1/9 London Regiment captured Ypres 16 August 1917 wounded left hip date f birth 31 March xx 13 barclay Street St Pancras list of 27 Sep 1917 at Limburg 201314 Pte Benjamin Badcock B Company Western Front 16 Aug 1917 [wounded] posterior (from) Lazarett Hamburg date of birth 31 March 1898 16 Nov 1917 at Parchim 9 Feb 1918 at Gustrow photos of the camp http://www.guestrow-history.de/uebersicht-dernummerierten-fotopostkarten

The documents that you’ve posted (MIC, medal roll, and POW record) all confirm that overseas he only ever served with a rifle regiment.  
 

The London Regiment as a body was really an administrative organisation of the Territorial Force and, unlike the majority of infantry ‘regiments’, was composed wholly of auxiliary part time soldiers (there were just a few more such regiments, e.g. Monmouthshire, Cambridgeshire, but they were much smaller).  

 

In reality the London Regiment comprised of 28 different units, each with at least two duplicates leading to designations such as, e.g. 1/1st, 2/1st, 3/1st.  By 1916 the sheer size of the London Regiment had made it unwieldy and it was discontinued as a body with the 28 units allocated to regular regiments as Territorial units. As the vast majority of the 28 had strong rifles identities the two most commonly aligned regular regiments were the King’s Royal Rifle Corps and the Rifle Brigade (although there were some others too, e.g. Royal Fusiliers).  
 

In the case of the 9th London Regiment (Queen Victoria’s Rifles), it became a TF battalion of the corps (i.e. body) of the regular King’s Royal Rifle Corps (without change of unit title), which is why that regiment appears on the MIC and medal roll.  The POW record has instead noted his precise battalion, so hence the slightly confusing difference.

 

I enclose a cap badge of the Queen Victoria’s Rifles, of the pattern that Benjamin Badcock would have worn.  As you can see it has similarities with the regular KRRC badge.  In part this was because before the London Regiment was formed in 1908, as a convenient way to gather the capital’s auxiliary units, the Queen Victoria’s Rifles had since the 1880s been instead a Volunteer Battalion (VB) of the KRRC, and so had previous association.  
 

Ergo the 1916 changes in effect returned the Queen Victoria’s Rifles (9th London’s) from whence they came pre 1908.

 

NB.  Although this explains the rifles connection, it doesn’t help at all with the photos that you’ve posted, which seem to show a different man to Benjamin Badcock for the reasons explained through the course of this thread.

 

[Bird/ Badcock family descendan]

This is another photo of Benjamin Lorne Badcock wearing a different uniform to the previous photos I have put up looking for answers. He is now very obviously wearing army uniform showing medal ribbons that are verified by records.

 

I also have much clearer close up of the badge on the hat Ben is wearing taken when a POW in Germany. 

 

 

 

[johntanner]

Nothing to add on the POW photograph, but the first one is I would suggest, Home Guard in WW2.  However, it does show is medal ribbons, with a BW and VM pair (as to be expected) and distinct from the individual in tropical kit in the Glosters, whom we have been debating.

[Bird/ Badcock family descendan]

Thank you, I too thought that it would be home guard, which would have been in New Zealand 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Bird/ Badcock family descendan said:

Thank you, I too thought that it would be home guard, which would have been in New Zealand 

The large photo shows a WW2 era “battle dress” uniform of the specific pattern introduced in 1937.  In 1941 it changed to have exposed buttons to make production simpler.  His headdress, a “field service cap”, was also introduced specifically for that uniform at the same time (it had also been used in khaki during WW1 for the Royal Flying Corps).

 

The small photo confirms yet again the cap badge of the South Staffordshire Regiment (I showed the badge in the very early pages of this thread).

 

The two photos are clearly the same man, but on the basis of all the photos shown, connecting him with the 9th London Regiment and King’s Royal Rifle Corps is impossible.

 

All the above said there was exhaustive analysis of this by several highly knowledgeable posters earlier in the thread and it was agreed by process of elimination that POWs were sharing uniform and headdress, and in several cases wearing cap badges that were not their own.  I think that must certainly be the case here given the impossibility of any other explanation.

Edited 3 June , 2021 by FROGSMILE