Is this an Army or a Navy Uniform please

[david murdoch]

15 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

From reading various soldiers’ and officers’ accounts I’ve gained the impression that through 1914-15, a soldier’s insignia oft became a kind of bartering asset, and that they were used sometimes in exchange for an egg, or two, or a pinch of tobacco, especially during the retreat from Mons as the columns of troops moved through towns and villages.  There were also, I recall, mentions of some badges being taken upon capture, although I don’t know if that was purely because they were seen as a souvenir by captors, or a means of conveying tactical intelligence information to headquarters. Probably a bit of both perhaps.

Interesting given what we've spoken about regimental pride and the wearing of other regimental badges. Especially for these professional soldiers, I'd have thought giving away (or bartering) the regimental cap badge would  be the last thing they would trade. Could see  getting away with "loosing" a shoulder title or the like. On the other hand I'd imagine that big Gordon's badge would be a bit of a magnet for German soldiers to have off a prisoner. My great grandfather was 1st Gordons (in Egypt and the Sudan) he was a die hard Gordon (from Hampshire when he joined). He wore his medals at weekends and at work and kept his cap badge  and shoulder titles (now in my keeping) - they were at Tel el Kebir  and in the Sudan. He took it badly when my grandfather joined the Motor Machine Gun Service!

[FROGSMILE]

7 hours ago, david murdoch said:

Interesting given what we've spoken about regimental pride and the wearing of other regimental badges. Especially for these professional soldiers, I'd have thought giving away (or bartering) the regimental cap badge would  be the last thing they would trade. Could see  getting away with "loosing" a shoulder title or the like. On the other hand I'd imagine that big Gordon's badge would be a bit of a magnet for German soldiers to have off a prisoner. My great grandfather was 1st Gordons (in Egypt and the Sudan) he was a die hard Gordon (from Hampshire when he joined). He wore his medals at weekends and at work and kept his cap badge  and shoulder titles (now in my keeping) - they were at Tel el Kebir  and in the Sudan. He took it badly when my grandfather joined the Motor Machine Gun Service!

I don’t know how widespread it was David, just that it happened and what the motive seemed to be.  Most of the few photos of the BEF during the retreat show insignia still in place, and the winter photos that are seen often show woollen ‘cap comforters‘ in use, so it’s difficult to know the true extent of the practice. When it did occur I suspect it was down to the sheer exhaustion and constant movement.  It would certainly have been frowned upon by the SNCOs.  I think that your grandfather’s attitude would have been the most common one.

[Bird/ Badcock family descendan]

On 15/05/2020 at 21:45, MaxD said:

I don't know whether you have looked at the POW records, if not herewith.

 

Both Parchim and Gustrow camps were in Mecklenburg in the center of what was then Germany:  There are some photos of Brits in the lick to the photo gallery from Gustrow.

 

Max

 

 

 

 

201314 Pte Benjamin Badcock 1.pdf 217.54 kB · 12 downloads

Hi Max, thank so so much for this info. I have been looking for some time to be able to complete the research of our Grandfather. I had great difficulty in finding anything other that the date he was taken prisoner. It is seems that you unlocked it for me and I am very greatfull.

[Bird/ Badcock family descendan]

Is there anyone who can tell me when this may have been taken?

 

Family is from England.

 

Many thanks.

 

[FROGSMILE]

He appears to be wearing the British War Medal (BWM - for WW1) instituted in 1919 and the Wolseley helmet with cap badge on the front was replaced in the 1930s, so the photo probably dates from the 1920s.  The BWM on its own was awarded for garrison duty in India and for certain personnel in the Royal Navy, in each case if not in war zones.

[johntanner]

Cap badge looks to be Gloucestershire Regiment, but not very clear. The Glosters didn’t however have a Battalion serving in India.  Do we have a name to work on?

[johntanner]

The other and perhaps more likely option would be 1st Garrison Bn. Lincolnshire Regiment, Sphinx badge and served in India.

[Michelle Young]

I'm a little confused as to whether Terrisb and Bird/Badcock are the same person? 

[Bird/ Badcock family descendan]

Hi Michelle, no we are not the same person, but the same family.

Researching Benjamin Badcock 1898, Kings Royal Riffles.  

He was talen POW 16th August 1917

[Bird/ Badcock family descendan]

1 hour ago, Bird/ Badcock family descendan said:

Hi Michelle, no we are not the same person, but the same family.

This is our grandfather. 

A/201314 Pte Benjamin Badcock 1/9 London Regiment captured Ypres 16 August 1917 wounded left hip date f birth 31 March xx 13 barclay Street St Pancras list of 27 Sep 1917 at Limburg 201314 Pte Benjamin Badcock B Company Western Front 16 Aug 1917 [wounded] posterior (from) Lazarett Hamburg date of birth 31 March 1898 16 Nov 1917 at Parchim

 

[FROGSMILE]

The photo certainly doesn’t show a soldier of the Kings Royal Rifle Corps, so you can at least rule that out.

[Bird/ Badcock family descendan]

9 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

The photo certainly doesn’t show a soldier of the Kings Royal Rifle Corps, so you can at least rule that out.

Thanks. 

[FROGSMILE]

3 minutes ago, Bird/ Badcock family descendan said:

Thanks. 

Do you know who else it might be?  Although the soldier in the picture isn’t KRRC, that doesn’t mean he might not have served with them at some other point during the war.  

[johntanner]

And from the service history above this cannot be the man in the picture.

[Bird/ Badcock family descendan]

It is possible that the above could be.

 

Name:    Henry Richard Badcock
Gender:    Male
Birth Date:    abt 1896
Age:    19
Document Year:    1915
Residence Place:    13 Barclay St, Somers Town
Regimental Number:    23756
Regiment Name:    13th Yorkshire Regiment
Form Title:    Short Service Attestation
 

[johntanner]

10 hours ago, Bird/ Badcock family descendan said:

It is possible that the above could be.

 

Name:    Henry Richard Badcock
Gender:    Male
Birth Date:    abt 1896
Age:    19
Document Year:    1915
Residence Place:    13 Barclay St, Somers Town
Regimental Number:    23756
Regiment Name:    13th Yorkshire Regiment
Form Title:    Short Service Attestation
 

This man has two sets of surviving service papers. First as above, when he was discharged after 163 days as unfit for general service.  Secondly, in 108th Training Reserve Bn, and 1st (R) Garrison Bn , Suffolk Regt, at home and then, in France with 15th Bn. Essex Regt.  Entitled to BW and VM, so again, not the man in the picture.

 

Any other possible names?

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, johntanner said:

This man has two sets of surviving service papers. First as above, when he was discharged after 163 days as unfit for general service.  Secondly, in 108th Training Reserve Bn, and 1st (R) Garrison Bn , Suffolk Regt, at home and then, in France with 15th Bn. Essex Regt.  Entitled to BW and VM, so again, not the man in the picture.

 

Any other possible names?

That all rather epitomises the lowering of standards over the course of the war. By late 1918 it very broadly speaking seems to have been a mixture of largely 18-20 year olds in the infantry battalions, some veterans in the RFA/RGA, and ex wounded and low quality men providing much of the garrison units and service support.

Edited 28 May , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Bird/ Badcock family descendan]

Hi, thanks for all the assistance with finding out what this all means for us.

 

I'm now thinking it could be a photo of great grandfather also Benjamin Lorne Badcock 1871-1915. I have found him in the 1911 British census as Fishmongers assistant to the navy stores Westminster

[johntanner]

Medal Index Cards of all 13 possibles (surname Badcock or variant) checked.  No BW medal only match.

 

Another branch of the family with a different surname?

[Bird/ Badcock family descendan]

Once again, I really do appreciate the time and assistance you give. 

I have looked at all the records I can find and at this point no further ahead.

Benjamin Lorne Badcock was 16 when he enlisted (as were many), just 1 month after war with Germany was declared. I have a lot of his records including when he was taken prisoner - 201314 Pte Benjamin Badcock 1/9 London Regiment captured Ypres 16 August 1917 wounded left
hip date f birth 31 March xx 13 barclay Street St Pancras list of 27 Sep 1917 at Limburg
201314 Pte Benjamin Badcock B Company Western Front 16 Aug 1917 

 

I have  a close photo of the helmet badge to see if I can progress what the uniform is and who the soldier could be.  

Thanks

 

[johntanner]

Not sure what I can add to previous posts: Gloucestershire or Lincolnshire Regiment; he only served in India, or another non- active theatre; given the effort of producing a colourised picture I'd hazard a guess he died, but that is really speculating.

[FROGSMILE]

That is a much better view of the badge and shows, I think, the Gloucestershire Regiment without any doubt.  Not only is the Sphinx much more clear, but so are the laurel leaves surrounding it.  

Edited 1 June , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Bird/ Badcock family descendan]

This is the badge on the cap worn by Benjamin Badcock POW ww1. Have his military records including injury date. 

The records show he enlisted  1914 with KRRC. This is the number on his grave in Christchurch N.Z. 

A/201314

 

 

[Bird/ Badcock family descendan]

 

UK, WWI Pension Ledgers and Index Cards, 1914-1923 Page 1 - UK, WWI Pension Ledgers and Index Cards, 1914-1923

 

[Bird/ Badcock family descendan]

The above are photo's of Benjamin Lorne Badcock 201314.

The badge on the POW cap look different to the one  on the cap Ben is wearing after war and different again the the badge on the Wolseley helmet.

Very confusing for a non military person.