Is this an Army or a Navy Uniform please

[travers61]

I'm not sure about men captured in 1917, but earlier in the war where in Germany a man was held was determined by the home area of the part of the German army that had captured them. Often the camp a man is shown at was just where he was registered, and he would be out in a work camp most of the time, and even later in the war used as labour behind the German front lines.

 

 

 

 

 

For comparison here is the badge of 9th Londons (Queen Victoria Rifles). Easy to see its KRRC origins.

 

Edited 15 May , 2020 by travers61

[FROGSMILE]

For travers61, thanks for putting me right on the 9th London’s, I’d not spotted the OP’s typo error.

 

For Max and Simon, thank you for the information regarding Gustrow and the other camps, Mecklenberg, et al.

Edited 15 May , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[mancpal]

Max,

I have many photos of Gustrow and also Gettorf camps that my Grandad brought home with him, I only wish I could post them ( no scanner or ability).

 

Simon

[MaxD]

Do you see any similar pics on the Gustrow site Simon?

 

Max

[mancpal]

max, 

I've seen a number of shots of both the camps my grandad was definitely a guest of. As has been noted already certain camps that appear on the ICRC site are little more than a postal address (in the case of my grandad both Limburg and Dulmen are offered with nothing to say he was ever at either). I think its notable that he was captured at Bullecourt in May 1917 but didn't get to notify his family until the end of the year, this missing section could easily have been filled by being used as forced labour behind the German lines.

The photos I have contain some group shots of soldiers (some named), general camp views (building a watch tower, camp cinema, camp cemetery etc.). The shots that particularly appeal show the concert party in full stage dress and as usual there are possibly some who take to a dress more 'comfortably' than others. My favourite is of a Bechstein upright piano that the prisoners had bought, the POWs chopped it up and each took a  key home as a souvenir when former guards wished to buy it for a pittance. Sadly my Grandads key was lost over the years.

For those interested in POWs there is an interesting account from capture to his final camp (via Gustrow) written by an Anzac soldier named Dawson, I found it on an Aussie Govt website but can't lay my hands on the exact details at present (must be easy to find coz even I found it without the aid of a safety net! ).

 

Simon

[Terrisb]

Thank for the information and link to Gustrow - I will definitely have a look.

I have uploaded a better full photo (which is actually a postcard - but you guys probably knew that) and it looks like Old Owl and Frogsmile were right about the South Staffordshire Regiment badge on his has - why would he have this if he was in Kings Royal Rifles or the 1/9th London Regiments?

There are 4 other guys there that seem to have the same hats which I'm guessing are Russians and then there is 1 other guy whose hat is different to everyone elses.

I saw on google that lots of these POW photos/postcards were made and sent - was it the norm for the POW camps to do this?

[Terrisb]

Thanks for spotting my typo and providing the 1/9th London badge

[FROGSMILE]

Of the three British soldiers in the photo two are from the South Staffordshire Regiment and one from either, Northumberland, Royal Inniskilling, or Royal Munster Fusiliers.  If it is definitely who you think it is then perhaps he had been transferred at some point.  After 1916 this often happened to formerly wounded men if they recovered and returned to France and Flanders.  How positive are you that the man is who you think he is, might he be a brother of the man you’re researching?

Edited 17 May , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[mancpal]

I wonder if the fusilier is a recent arrival seeing as he wears his army uniform (even puttees) with no armband or stripe on the trouser leg.

 

Simon

[FROGSMILE]

7 minutes ago, mancpal said:

I wonder if the fusilier is a recent arrival seeing as he wears his army uniform (even puttees) with no armband or stripe on the trouser leg.

 

Simon

That certainly seems likely Simon.  Most POW photos I’ve seen tend to show mixed dress and it’s made me wonder if wearing the Red Cross supplied uniform was mandatory or merely intended to kit out those men who’d either lost their uniform in the period after capture or had only the clothes that they stood up in and needed a change for hygiene.

[mancpal]

It just crossed my mind that I think in one of the shots of my grandad he is wearing army uniform rather than POW clothing. I'll check later.

 

Simon

[Terrisb]

My husband and his sister said it was either their Great Grandfather or Grandfather.  There is not WWI military evidence for the Great Grandfather, however their Grandfather was a POW - he was kindly identified in some documents by MaxD - our Benjamin Badock lived in Barclay St, Pancras, London, so feel it is definitely him.  It must be as you have stated that he was transferred to the South Staffordshire Regiment at some stage.  He was wounded when he went into the POW camp.

 

Again many thanks for all your help, so grateful you share your knowledge.

[MaxD]

A loose end, there is nothing in his records to show service in the S Staffs so I would echo Frogsmile's query -  are you quite sure the man in the pic with the S Staffs badge is your grandfather?

 

Max

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, MaxD said:

A loose end, there is nothing in his records to show service in the S Staffs so I would echo Frogsmile's query -  are you quite sure the man in the pic with the S Staffs badge is your grandfather?

 

Max

Does his record exist Max or is it just Medal index details?

[MaxD]

The KRRC BW&V roll which has the note posted 1/9 London (among a bunch of KRRC posted to 1/9 London.  While his KRRC battalion isn't shown on the list,  near numbers with the same trajectory (including one captured on the same day) suggest arrival in France in May 1917 enroute for KRRC but diverted on arrived to 1/9 London

 

My query arises because the S Staffs part of this discussion relates to the cap badge being worn by the POW and I could not see any transfer taking place after capture as 1/9 London man while in captivity.  Terrisb raised the same query himself - why would he have a S Staffs cap badge as a POW.  I sense you had doubts too about the picture.

 

Max

[FROGSMILE]

5 hours ago, MaxD said:

The KRRC BW&V roll which has the note posted 1/9 London (among a bunch of KRRC posted to 1/9 London.  While his KRRC battalion isn't shown on the list,  near numbers with the same trajectory (including one captured on the same day) suggest arrival in France in May 1917 enroute for KRRC but diverted on arrived to 1/9 London

 

My query arises because the S Staffs part of this discussion relates to the cap badge being worn by the POW and I could not see any transfer taking place after capture as 1/9 London man while in captivity.  Terrisb raised the same query himself - why would he have a S Staffs cap badge as a POW.  I sense you had doubts too about the picture.

 

Max

Yes, I agree Max and can’t really make any sense of it.  If he was earmarked for KRRC and then, as with so many non-regulars, diverted to 1/9th London’s and then captured, it cannot be him.  There would be no point or even humour in him wearing a badge that wasn’t his unit. I don’t think it can be him.

Edited 18 May , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[MaxD]

On 14/05/2020 at 13:21, Terrisb said:

He also had a twin brother Henry Richard Badcock who was also in WWI in the Essex Regt.

 

The twin  (address at Barclay St checks out) first served in 13 Bn Yorkshire Regiment, served Nov 1915 to Mar 1916, discharged unfit.  Deemed to have enlisted in Mar 16 (bit of an overlap), served after training in 1 (Reserve) Garrison Bn Suffolk Regiment then posted to France to 15 Essex Apr/May 1918, discharged to reserve Apr 1919.

 

So the pic isn't of the twin who wasn't a POW and who also has no S Staffs connection.

 

Max

 

 

[Terrisb]

My husband and his sister are both still adamant the guy in the photo is their Grandfather, Benjamin Badcock born 1898 living at 13 Barclay St, London.

I have seen his medal record - his service number I think that what you call it) corresponds with another document my husband sister has, however I have not been able to find his attestation papers which would show more information.  It is odd that his are missing but his twin's are available.  I'm not sure whether his twin was identical or fraternal either.

 

[MaxD]

I don't think anyone has pointed out that some 60% of service records from the Great War were lost to bombing in WW2 in September 1940.  That means there is only a 40% chance of finding a service record from that period.  The records were I believe arranged in storage by the many record offices that dealt with the many army regiments. The KRRC records which dealt with Benjamin was the Rifles Record Office at Winchester.  His twin served finally in the Essex Regiment which was dealt with by a different record office entirely.  This may account for one lot being among the 2.8 million (of about 7 million) that survived and another lot being lost.

 

Hopefully this answers you query about why the twin's papers are to be found but not Benjamin's.

 

I am quite happy to amend what I have said previously - on the available evidence, his medal award roll and POW record  plus a little knowledge of the way the army works Benjamin Badcock did not serve in the Staffordshire Regiment. If the man in the photograph is he, then he is wearing the cap of a regiment with which he had no connection.

 

Max

 

[Terrisb]

Many thanks for your explanation Max - it is useful to know about the missing records and I appreciate the confirmation that he did not serve in the Staffordshire Regiment.  My husband's sister has just told me that he had written "With Love Ben" on the back of the postcard - so it would seem that it is definitely him. 

 

[FROGSMILE]

It appears significant that there are two men wearing the South Staffordshire Regiment (it's worthy of mention that there was a North Staffordshire Regiment too) in the photo, implying, perhaps, that they were pals and captured together.  It seems to me that something is being missed here given the annotation on the back of the photo and the conviction of the family that it is their grandfather.  What long shot solution have we perhaps not examined?

[MaxD]

The action during which he was captured on 16 August 1917 is covered in detail in the 9th Londons war diary although more easily read in 169 Brigade's diary (9 London was one of four battalions in the brigade).   This was their part in an allied offensive against the German line, 169 Brigade were just to the east of Hooge which itself is about 2.5 miles east of Ypres.

 

9th London's task was to "mop up" behind the London Rifle Brigade and to occupy the southern half of Glencorse Wood (the diary describes the wood as being covered in fallen trees, shell holes and the ground as slimy black mud).  Opposition was heavy and the battalion had to fall back to about the line they started from right on the eastern edge of the wood.  The battalion was relieved in the line on the next day.  87 men were reported missing that day.

 

The attached map and image, courtesy Tmapper and NLS, shows what was then known as Glencorse Wood.  The road running across the image below the wood is the Menin road from Ypres to Geluvelt.

 

The war diaries can be downloaded free at the moment from the National Archives.

9 Londons here:  https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354945

169 Brigade here: 

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14056023

 

Max

[MaxD]

Sorry Frogsmile, missed your post.  If the family weren't so adamant about his identity, I'd have proposed that Ben was sending a photo of his mates.  In looking at this, I've covered everything I can think of, the ideas cupboard is empty. 

 

I know, as you do, what the available evidence says which is, in the end, as far as one can go.

 

Max

[FROGSMILE]

13 minutes ago, MaxD said:

Sorry Frogsmile, missed your post.  If the family weren't so adamant about his identity, I'd have proposed that Ben was sending a photo of his mates.  In looking at this, I've covered everything I can think of, the ideas cupboard is empty. 

 

I know, as you do, what the available evidence says which is, in the end, as far as one can go.

 

Max

Yes, you’re right of course Max and as you know I’ve felt that the photo was a misidentification for some time.  It’s just thrown me a bit with what the family have said about the annotation on the back.  If it had just said Bert, or Uncle Bert we could put it down to an addition by a family member long after the event, but if it says ‘from Uncle Bert’ it really confuses matters.  Perhaps the inquirer could post a photo of the back, although I know that  would be really clutching at straws.

Edited 21 May , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[MaxD]

It says With Love Ben.

 

Max