Is this an Army or a Navy Uniform please

[FROGSMILE]

5 minutes ago, MaxD said:

It says With Love Ben.

 

Max

Yes I’m sorry Max, it’s been a long day....

It’s equally an odd annotation unless as you say he was sending a photo of his mates that had been asked for, and that would seem to be stretching credulity too far.

Edited 21 May , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Terrisb]

I now have a photo of the back of the postcard which is attached.  I have downloaded the Diary info regarding the 1/9 and the 169 that was put up and will have a read.

 

[FROGSMILE]

It seems that the POW camp was near the  Hanseatic port of Rostock in East Germany.

The dedication written on the back certainly implies the photo was ‘from’ Ben.

[Old Owl]

Hi,

Just come back to this thread and note the South Staffordshire badge appears to be causing some consternation. However I believe that there may be a simple solution in that POW's often appear to have mixed uniforms, hence is it not possible that the gentleman in question had either lost his cap or badge and then simply picked up another, or even swopped his badge with another prisoner just because he could, and knowing that nobody would pull him up about wearing the wrong one.

I am pretty sure that I have either heard or read somewhere that POW's often swopped badges and pieces of kit with other prisoners.

Robert

[MaxD]

A perfectly feasible explanation.

 

Gustrow was the capital of the Rostock district of the state of Mecklenburg-Vorpommern.  Readers of French and or German will find a description of the camp and some facts in this 1915 Red Cross report on a number of POW camps:

 

https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/Camps/Gustrow-Meklenbourg-/499/fr/  - despite the title, it covers 19 camps, Gustrow is on page 56, the figures in the report are of course2 years earlier than Benjamin's arrival.

 

Max

[FROGSMILE]

Personally I just can’t buy the idea of a British soldier, even a non-regular, wearing the cap badge of another regiment.  It just goes against every aspect of esprit-de-Corps and sense of identity that he was/is inculcated with.  That said, we seem to have exhausted other avenues, and there’s no doubt that as non-regulars were often moved between regiments, as required during the course of the war, those ties are likely to have been loosened.

Edited 25 May , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Terrisb]

I too think it odd that a military person would wear a cap belonging to another regiment.... but that seems to be the best explanation at this stage and you guys have covered every angle - thank you.

[david murdoch]

 

On 25/05/2020 at 06:58, FROGSMILE said:

Personally I just can’t buy the idea of a British soldier, even a non-regular, wearing the cap badge of another regiment.  It just goes against every aspect of esprit-de-Corps and sense of identity that he was/is inculcated with.  That said, we seem to have exhausted other avenues, and there’s no doubt that as non-regulars were often moved between regiments, as required during the course of the war, those ties are likely to have been loosened.

Adding to this thread as I was looking up information on these POW uniforms.

The photos I have were posted on Facebook a couple of years ago, but recently I’ve managed to identify three men. The photos come from an album that belonged to a French POW at Senne. Speaking with the owner of the album these are the only British soldier's photos and all the rest are French. I’ve been in touch with descendants of one of the men and they have sent me another couple of photos (which were sent home from Germany to his family).

 

The first man with the moustache is  Pte 10197 John Thornton A Coy, 1st Battalion Gordon Highlanders. He was captured (unwounded) on 28/8/1914 at Bertry. His date of entry to France is 13/8/1914. He was born 29/3/1888 in Fraserburgh. He married in 1913 in Fraserburgh and his profession was a cooper. However on the 1911 Census he was in Colchester England as a private in the Gordon Highlanders. As pre war regular he was possibly a reservist and mobilised when war broke out.

The small hard looking lad is Pte. William McLeod A/7496 D Coy, 1st Battalion Scottish Rifles. He has a date of entry to France 23/9/1914. He has a pension card - this confirms his address as 40 Muslin Street, Bridgetown, Glasgow and date of birth 19/3/1893. His POW records showing he was taken prisoner 20th July 1916 at High Wood after being wounded in head, leg and arm (grenade). On the 1911 Census he was a van boy in Glasgow. He must have joined the army and been a regular before war broke out. None of this uniform is his - most likely what he was captured in was shredded and probably cut off him for medical treatment.

 

The man with the kilt cut jacket is Pte. 6469 Thomas Miller B Coy 2nd Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers. He was captured (unwounded) at Beauvois on 2/9/1914 having arrived in France 23/8/1914. Again by entry date and battalion he was a pre war regular. He has a pension card which shows he was born 17/9/1881 in Coleraine and was single. Address 30 Lime Street Belfast. His NOK on his POW record has the same address and Mrs Miller likely his mother. He was discharged from the army 5/3/1919 after repatriation.

 

To add to the previous postings these photos show them sharing uniform – the tunic with the two good conduct stripes is the same one worn by Thornton and McLeod but not originally belonging to either. All three wearing a Gordon Highlanders glengarry - possibly Thornton's original. I’d say they are probably dressed in the best of British uniform available – possibly for photos to be sent home, so needs must and preferable to the POW uniform. By McLeod's capture date and allowing time to recover from wounds dates these photos late 1916 onwards so the other two would have been in captivity over two years by then. They were all listed at Senne July 1917.

The descendants of John Thornton just sent me the two photos of him outside with the sentry box in the background. Group one he’s wearing POW uniform. Couple of men on the right may be French or Belgian. In the other he has a kilt apron and rest of his kit looks pretty decent.

The group photo of William Mcleod he’s wearing POW uniform trousers with puttees but with the same tunic as his other photo. Two men with him likely British in POW uniform. One on the left with cap badge – identifying this may be able to pick up a name from the POW ledger.

Lot of good details in these photos and clearly showing the POW uniform with the stripe on the trousers and the armband. Set of the tartan on the kilts is pretty clear also. especially in Millar's photo.

 

Edited 18 August , 2020 by david murdoch
adding photo of Thomas Miller

[FROGSMILE]

Cracking photos David, and a case compellingly made.  I think that you’ve identified succinctly the key driver, that these men were presenting the best impression of themselves that they could by sharing the very limited British uniform that they had available rather than use the issued prison uniform that was in greater supply and all else that they had.  It seems deeply ironic to me that for the ex-regulars among them especially, the same driving motive that would ordinarily make them deeply reluctant to wear a uniform other than their own, is the same one compelling them to wear any British Army uniform and insignia rather than none.  Given the circumstances that you’ve so ably outlined, that does not surprise me.  Thank you for posting.

Edited 18 August , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[headgardener]

Just to echo some points made by David Murdoch (above), I can also confirm that POW's wore badges and uniform that didn't belong to them. I have a large collection of POW images and off the top of my head I can think of several examples of this - a Royal Fusilier wearing an Artists Rifles cap badge, a Lincolnshire TF man wearing a Leicestershire regular's cap badge, an AIF man wearing a Devons badge, another AIF man wearing a Gordons uniform and badge, a Duke of Wellingtons man wearing his own uniform and badges in one photo and a Highland uniform in another, a R Sussex man wearing a French uniform, an infantryman wearing an RA badge, an RFC pilot wearing an observers tunic..... the list goes on. In case anyone wonders, these are images in which the man in question is positively identified. It happens often enough for me to consider the cap badge of a POW to be a relatively weak guide as to identity. I also think that some men 'inherited' kit from other men who died or who left the camp and were repatriated. 

[headgardener]

10 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

..... the key driver that these men were presenting the best impression of themselves that they could by sharing the very limited British uniform that they had available rather than use the issued prison uniform that was in greater supply and all else that they had.

 

...... the same driving motive that would ordinarily make them deeply reluctant to wear a uniform other than their own is the same one compelling them to wear any British Army uniform and insignia rather than none.

 

Yes, well put. Sums it up perfectly. Cap badges cannot be relied on when seeking to identify POW's. 

Edited 18 August , 2020 by headgardener

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, headgardener said:

Just to echo some points made by David Murdoch (above), I can also confirm that POW's wore badges and uniform that didn't belong to them. I have a large collection of POW images and off the top of my head I can think of several examples of this - a Royal Fusilier wearing an Artists Rifles cap badge, a Lincolnshire TF man wearing a Leicestershire regular's cap badge, an AIF man wearing a Devons badge, another AIF man wearing a Gordons uniform and badge, a Duke of Wellingtons man wearing his own uniform and badges in one photo and a Highland uniform in another, a R Sussex man wearing a French uniform, an infantryman wearing an RA badge, an RFC pilot wearing an observers tunic..... the list goes on. In case anyone wonders, these are images in which the man in question is positively identified. It happens often enough for me to consider the cap badge of a POW to be a relatively weak guide as to identity. I also think that some men 'inherited' kit from other men who died or who left the camp and were repatriated. 

From the evidence given by David, and your own experience collecting photos matched with personal data, I no longer doubt that this, ‘needs must’ attitude to regimental insignia, was a feature of POW life.  Nonetheless, I think that it’s important to be circumspect more generally and not conflate this very specifically located practice with the idea that some have that cross-dressing was common across the Army as a whole.  There are some who seem to hold that view on the flimsiest possible evidence and I should hate to encourage them.

Edited 18 August , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Grantp08]

Cracking pictures and research, David. Fascinating stuff. 

 

As you say, Private McLeod looks a tough wee character.

[headgardener]

23 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

.... I think that it’s important to be circumspect more generally and not conflate this very specifically located practice with the idea that some have that cross-dressing was common across the Army as a whole.  There are some who seem to hold that view on the flimsiest possible evidence and I should hate to encourage them.

 

I know this is a particular bug bear of yours! POW's were somewhat detached from ordinary military conventions, so I think different rules apply to analyzing their uniforms. Otherwise I very much agree that the suggestion 'maybe he's wearing someone else's uniform' is a particularly lazy analysis to apply to an apparent anomaly in badges or kit. In my whole collection of several thousand images I have 1 card in which a man (definitely NOT a POW) can be seen wearing a uniform which isn't his own (an ASC driver who is clearly wearing Highland uniform - but there is something about kilts and Highland headgear that some people are drawn to like moths to a flame). 

[FROGSMILE]

10 minutes ago, headgardener said:

 

I know this is a particular bug bear of yours! POW's were somewhat detached from ordinary military conventions, so I think different rules apply to analyzing their uniforms. Otherwise I very much agree that the suggestion 'maybe he's wearing someone else's uniform' is a particularly lazy analysis to apply to an apparent anomaly in badges or kit. In my whole collection of several thousand images I have 1 card in which a man (definitely NOT a POW) can be seen wearing a uniform which isn't his own (an ASC driver who is clearly wearing Highland uniform - but there is something about kilts and Highland headgear that some people are drawn to like moths to a flame). 

Yes, I agree with your analysis and conclusion.

[david murdoch]

5 hours ago, Grantp08 said:

Cracking pictures and research, David. Fascinating stuff. 

 

As you say, Private McLeod looks a tough wee character.

I've been looking at his background. I'd say comparing him with the others he was pretty small and skinny and also he'd been badly wounded probably within a year or so of the picture being taken. As this was not his own uniform a bit big on him. In the sitting photo he does not look that healthy. He'd probably be 23 or 24 in this photo. Going by his Bridgeton address and his 1911 census return he grew up in a tough part of the east end of Glasgow. His address still exists but the houses have all been knocked down and replaced. Back then he would have grown up in a tenement - they were packed in there - his mother was 38 and head of the household and at 19 he was the oldest of 8 children. No sign of the father and they had a boarder (from Aberdeen) probably to help with the rent. The three oldest boys ages 19,17 and 15 were all working. Very probable all three brothers  served in the war. I've found one of his younger brothers so far - also served but was invalided out in 1917 with gun shot wounds - his pension card has the same Bridgetown address. Tracking him back to 1901 his father's name was John and he was a navvy, so he probably had a pretty tough upbringing. William Mcleod died in 1974 in Glasgow aged 82. His death is registered in a good area in the west end - so he obviously got on in life.

 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, david murdoch said:

I've been looking at his background. I'd say comparing him with the others he was pretty small and skinny and also he'd been badly wounded probably within a year or so of the picture being taken. As this was not his own uniform a bit big on him. In the sitting photo he does not look that healthy. He'd probably be 23 or 24 in this photo. Going by his Bridgeton address and his 1911 census return he grew up in a tough part of the east end of Glasgow. His address still exists but the houses have all been knocked down and replaced. Back then he would have grown up in a tenement - they were packed in there - his mother was 38 and head of the household and at 19 he was the oldest of 8 children. No sign of the father and they had a boarder (from Aberdeen) probably to help with the rent. The three oldest boys ages 19,17 and 15 were all working. Very probable all three brothers  served in the war. I've found one of his younger brothers so far - also served but was invalided out in 1917 with gun shot wounds - his pension card has the same Bridgetown address. Tracking him back to 1901 his father's name was John and he was a navvy, so he probably had a pretty tough upbringing. William Mcleod died in 1974 in Glasgow aged 82. His death is registered in a good area in the west end - so he obviously got on in life.

 

A very interesting rundown of his background David.  One can only imagine the horrors that he experienced, and having seen the state of the Glasgow tenements in the 1970s, I think he might well have sometimes preferred the trenches and his life in an infantry battalion.

 

Edited 18 August , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[david murdoch]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

A very interesting rundown of his background David.  One can only imagine the horrors that he experienced, and having seen the state of the Glasgow tenements in the 1970s, I think he might well have sometimes preferred the trenches and his life in an infantry battalion.

 

 

 

 

Yes he looks very much a product of his upbringing. Most likely why he joined the army prior to the war. Its one reason there were so many small men in those days they could form bantam battalions, and it's known that many men  - especially from these deprived areas actually put on weight on army rations.

Note I edited my photo post and added the photo of Thomas Miller as it looks like it did not upload properly last night. He's the one with the kilt cut jacket. His kilt pattern is the clearest, and I'd say probably a Gordons kilt. Looks like there were a large number of Gordons in this camp from the mass capture of 1st Battalion at Le Cateau in 1914.  Due to this I'd imagine they were captured with kit in fairly good order.

Edited 18 August , 2020 by david murdoch

[FROGSMILE]

9 minutes ago, david murdoch said:

Yes he looks very much a product of his upbringing. Most likely why he joined the army prior to the war. Its one reason there were so many small men in those days they could form bantam battalions, and it's known that many men  - especially from these deprived areas actually put on weight on army rations.

Note I edited my photo post and added the photo of Thomas Miller as it looks like it did not upload properly last night. He's the one with the kilt cut jacket.

There’s something a bit odd that occurred with some of the posted photos as a result of the forum’s upgrade/update today.  You’re photo was definitely there previously, as I recall it distinctly.

Edited 18 August , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[david murdoch]

Just now, FROGSMILE said:

There’s something a bit odd that occurred with photos as a result of the forum’s upgrade/update today.  You’re photo was definitely there previously.

Yes I noticed some pictures on other threads just showed up as icons, but that was the only one of those I posted showing up like that, so I re attached just to be sure. I still need to do a bit of background research on him.

[FROGSMILE]

2 minutes ago, david murdoch said:

Yes I noticed some pictures on other threads just showed up as icons, but that was the only one of those I posted showing up like that, so I re attached just to be sure. I still need to do a bit of background research on him.

It’s very odd that it seems only to have affected some images and not others.

[david murdoch]

Regarding these photos. Another point of interest - the two photos of Thornton sent to me by family have photographers studio numbers on them. These were taken by a local German photographer, which suggests they did a service to take photos of soldier to produce postcard prints for them to send home with letters. On the back of these "A.Ophoven,Photogr.,Paderborn, filiale, Sennelager." This name gives quite  a lot of hits on Google. The others from the French album, possibly a French POW who was a photographer to trade managed to get materials to set up a small studio within the camp. Happily (for us) he put the name and address of each man on the back of the original prints.

[headgardener]

1 minute ago, david murdoch said:

Another point of interest - the two photos of Thornton sent to me by family have photographers studio numbers on them. These were taken by a local German photographer, which suggests they did a service to take photos of soldier to produce postcard prints for them to send home with letters. 

 

POW Camps did have official photographers for that express purpose. I recall that in one camp it was a German army sergeant (one of the camp staff perhaps?) while in others they came from nearby towns. 

[david murdoch]

Just looking at another photo of Sennelager POWs dated 1914. By the looks of them not long arrived so still in (mostly) original kit. I'd say the likely Gordons and Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers though there is one Argylls glengarry there too. Interestingly pretty well all the men are missing cap badges. On some glengarries they still have the backing. Were badges/shoulder titles removed on capture as a matter of course - not something I'm familiar with. 

[FROGSMILE]

8 hours ago, david murdoch said:

Just looking at another photo of Sennelager POWs dated 1914. By the looks of them not long arrived so still in (mostly) original kit. I'd say the likely Gordons and Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers though there is one Argylls glengarry there too. Interestingly pretty well all the men are missing cap badges. On some glengarries they still have the backing. Were badges/shoulder titles removed on capture as a matter of course - not something I'm familiar with. 

From reading various soldiers’ and officers’ accounts I’ve gained the impression that through 1914-15, a soldier’s insignia oft became a kind of bartering asset, and that they were used sometimes in exchange for an egg, or two, or a pinch of tobacco, especially during the retreat from Mons as the columns of troops moved through towns and villages.  There were also, I recall, mentions of some badges being taken upon capture, although I don’t know if that was purely because they were seen as a souvenir by captors, or a means of conveying tactical intelligence information to headquarters. Probably a bit of both perhaps.

Edited 19 August , 2020 by FROGSMILE