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AndrewFrench

An Intrguiging Mystery of Indentity due to Amnesia

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George Rayner

Bessie!

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Keith Brannen
3 minutes ago, Madmeg said:

Well I'd assume that the descendants of Harry and Betty have a pretty good idea of when Great Grandad died?

 

Not necessarily. May have a rough date, and searched for a date and picked the 1931 one because he died in Bristol (and it is possible, though while residing in Bristol, he may have died elsewhere), but the age does not agree with the age they are suggesting, but does agree with the Bristol birth I mentioned. Again, all speculation, hence the need for scans of the certificate, and how do they know, and what proof do they have, that it is the right man. As well, with a birth found in 1881 in Bristol of a man that certainly seems to be the same man (again, speculation) is it really him, and therefore the Hubbard story just that, a story, or some variation?

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Madmeg
20 minutes ago, Keith Brannen said:

 

Not necessarily. May have a rough date, and searched for a date and picked the 1931 one because he died in Bristol (and it is possible, though while residing in Bristol, he may have died elsewhere), but the age does not agree with the age they are suggesting, but does agree with the Bristol birth I mentioned. Again, all speculation, hence the need for scans of the certificate, and how do they know, and what proof do they have, that it is the right man. As well, with a birth found in 1881 in Bristol of a man that certainly seems to be the same man (again, speculation) is it really him, and therefore the Hubbard story just that, a story, or some variation?

There are two Henry John Abbots b Bristol from 1870 onwards- one in 1881 and Henry John Joseph in 1886.

Henry JJ can be found in various census- he seems not to have left Bristol.

There is a marriage for a Henry J in 1907- possibly to Emily Dix- henry and Emily and two children are shown in the 1911 census in Bristol- a child born in 1914 shows mother's name as Dix- I havent done any more confirmation than that- this would appear to be Henry JJ- who may be the henry J who died in 1946- age is not quite right however.

Henry J b 1881 then disappears- not reliably found  in any census- however in 1911 there is a William Henry b 1881 Bristol who is a Royal marine- No birth record is available in Bristol for this man.

Other births etc in Somerset are definitely NOT bristol - so William H Abbott is another mystery- nor is he in the Rifles. 

 

There doesn;t seem to be any easy online source of records for casualties of the zeppelin raids on London. Perhaps newspapers would be the way to go? This might identify some likely addresses in poplar to launch a better search?

 

 

Edited by Madmeg

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corisande

I am reasonably sure that the Henry J Abbott who died in Bristol in 1931 aged 50, is the Henry John Abbott born Bristol in 1881

 

There are some Ancestry trees (for what they are worth) showing his birth and death

 

if you accept that then this is your Harry Abbott or you have the facts of your Harry Abbott's death wrong

 

in that case the only real info is the 1918 marriage cert

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Keith Brannen

Madmeg, Henry John born 1881 is in the 1901 census, son of Christopher James and Hannah (Adlam) with seven siblings (he is the second child). Point is, a copy of the marriage and death certificate is important to prove or discount any of these speculations.

 

corisande, does the parents' names agree with the trees that you have seen on ancestry?

Edited by Keith Brannen

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Madmeg
10 minutes ago, corisande said:

I am reasonably sure that the Henry J Abbott who died in Bristol in 1931 aged 50, is the Henry John Abbott born Bristol in 1881

 

There are some Ancestry trees (for what they are worth) showing his birth and death

 

if you accept that then this is your Harry Abbott or you have the facts of your Harry Abbott's death wrong

 

in that case the only real info is the 1918 marriage cert

The problem is that Henry J Abbott b 1881 then disappears- I couldn;t find him in the subsequent census (in Bristol), The Henry John Abbott who IS in Bristol in the census matches Henry John Joseph Abbott b 1886. 

So one of our Henry Johns is missing! 

If you accept that Henry J Abbott b 1881 is the one who died in Bristol in 1931 aged 50 then you have to account for him in 1891, 1901 and 1911- and he isn't there, only Henry JJ Abbott.

There is a (married) Harry Abbott b 1880 Milbourne Port in Fulham in 1911 but Milbourne Port is very definitely NOT Bristol or remotely near it. So however, we look at it there IS a missing Henry J Abbott to be accounted for.

 

EDIT- following post from Keith- ok that's weird- when I searched for Henry J he didnt show up - but when I search for Christopher I find the family in 1901- not sure why that happened but yup- I'll agree with you there,now we have accounted for all the henry Abbotts from bristol and there is nothing to link them with Poplar.

Edited by Madmeg

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corisande

Yes, the Henry John Abbott born Bristol in 1881, has parents Christopher James and Hannah in bapt record

 

they are in 1891 and 1901 censuses as the same family living in Bristol

 

the Ancestry tree shows this info, plus the 1931 death of their man in Bristol

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keithmroberts

I am reluctant to become involved in this, but it seems that some options have emerged from online records, but unless I have missed something they are not 100% definitive.  Some suggestions have been made that are at this stage no more than speculative comment.

 

My initial thoughts are to agree that some money needs to be spent. Certificates can nowadays be ordered for digital delivery if not required for legal reasons, and it may be that Aunt Tory needs to get some solid evidence to make this worth while. That might mean obtaining certificates all the way back from her parents if these cannot be found. Once some reliable starting point is located, it may be possible to move from intelligent interpretation to established fact.  https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/default.asp

Until there is absolute confidence in a starting point t really is difficult to move onwards.  I found in tracing my own family tree that I had to order either 4 or 5 certificates as I progressed to confirm connections and fill in the gaps. At least these days the cost has reduced.

 

Keith

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AndrewFrench

Hi everybody

Thank you so much for posting. It's been an overwhelming response. My friend has joined the forum but does not seen yet to have posted in the discussion - hopefully she we be able to contribute soon. 

Andrew

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Dai Bach y Sowldiwr
1 hour ago, AndrewFrench said:

Hi everybody

Thank you so much for posting. It's been an overwhelming response. My friend has joined the forum but does not seen yet to have posted in the discussion - hopefully she we be able to contribute soon. 

Andrew

I think she has:

 

 

 

Edited by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

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alf mcm

Bessie Abbott married Arthur D. Lawrence in Bristol during the 2nd quarter of 1939. She is shown with her husband and son Sidney {and 3 redacted others} living in Bristol. Sidney’s date of birth is wrong, it is the date for his brother Robert Henry Abbott.  https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=tna%2fr39%2f5000%2f5000a%2f003%2f29

 

Bessie’s date of birth is 7th February 1891, and this ties in with her baptism on 29th March 1891, as Bessie Price. https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/60857/42886_1831109388_0316-00059?pid=2851594&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D60857%26h%3D2851594%26tid%3D%26pid%3D%26usePUB%3Dtrue%26_phsrc%3DbmY22514%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=bmY22514&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true

 

It seems that Bessie Abbott should appear in the new WFA/Fold 3 pension records. Her name doesn’t appear, probably because ledgers for south and south-east England have been ‘weeded’ by government departments. We may have to wait until the pension cards are released later this year to get an explanation of what happened.

 

Regards,

 

Alf McM

Edited by alf mcm

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tullybrone
2 hours ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

I think she has:

 

 

 

 

Yes I remember bidding her a cheery welcome to the forum yesterday evening but for some reason my post on this topic has now “been disappeared”?

 

Strange......

 

Steve

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Aunty Tory

I can't thank you enough for thinking this through and offering questions and suggestions.  Reading through everyones replies, you're absolutely right, there is currently so little to go on.  I will go online and order copies of marriage and death certificates to see if that sheds any further light - good idea :-)

 

To give you a bit more background, William Hubbard (or Abbott) was my great-grandfather.  As I am a descendant through my fathers side, my maiden name was Abbott, and my grandfather Robert Henry Abbott was his son.  We were always told there was a story of a name change, but my grandfather rarely spoke of it, and now sadly there is no one left alive in the family who would have any concrete facts.  I did however find some papers in my grandads possessions, one is a letter from a firm of solicitors in the 60's who were trying to trace the family to distribute a small sum from a deceased estate belonging to a Richard John Waugh.  Most of the family tree I built on Ancestry came from that information, but again, I'm unsure about the providence of the information as there don't seem to be supporting records.  I also have a letter from my aunt (his eldest daughter) which relates her recollections of the story - I attach both.

 

Is there a place I could check the army pension records?  Sounds like that might be a good place to look.

IMG_0132.pdf

IMG_0131.pdf

IMG_0133.pdf

IMG_0130.pdf

IMG_0129.pdf

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Aunty Tory
1 hour ago, tullybrone said:

 

Yes I remember bidding her a cheery welcome to the forum yesterday evening but for some reason my post on this topic has now “been disappeared”?

 

Strange......

 

Steve

I'm sorry for not replying - I didn't see it?  I'm just checking you're able to see my comments & attachments too?  I've posted twice in this thread, are you seeing them?

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tullybrone
Just now, Aunty Tory said:

I'm sorry for not replying - I didn't see it?  I'm just checking you're able to see my comments & attachments too?  I've posted twice in this thread, are you seeing them?

 

Yes thanks Victoria.

 

No apology needed.

 

Steve

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Keith Brannen

Aunty Tory, just a quick read of the information shows that the 1931 death certificate of Henry J. is not the one to order. IMG_0132.pdf states that he died 2nd August 1931 and "in this record is described as William Abbott". If so, then the death certificate you want is for William Abbott, aged 36, death registered in the September quarter 1931.

Edited by Keith Brannen

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corisande

All that seems to be known for certain is that he married as Harry Abbott in 1918 so why do you think he died as William Abbott in 1931 ?

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Keith Brannen
23 minutes ago, corisande said:

All that seems to be known for certain is that he married as Harry Abbott in 1918 so why do you think he died as William Abbott in 1931 ?

IMG_0132.pdf  first paragraph: "Your father, the said Henry Abbott, died on the 2nd day of August 1931 at 250 Wick Road, Bristol, and in this record he is described as William Abbott."

 

Agree that the marriage license is the most important, as the death certificate would not have much more than the above (except informant).

 

 

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Susan Tall

In the solicitors letter that Aunty Tory included it says that Henry Abbott married Bessie Price on 6 Feb 1918 at the Parish Church, Clifton, Bristol and his named was recorded as Harry Abbott.  Then they say the said "Henry Abbott, died on the 2nd day of August 1931 at 250 wick Road, Bristol, and in this record he is described as William Abbott".

 

Another interesting point in the solicitors letter is that Mrs Richley a daughter of Robert Samuel Hubbard informed them that she had a brother William Henry "who had some trouble with the Army".  Nothing about him being injured and losing his memory.

 

I did earlier find mention of a Hubbard deserting the Army in 1918 - just a thought.  Was his shell shock story all made up to cover his desertion?

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George Rayner

Maybe because he was William Henry as a given name-although not registered- when born as a Hubbard?

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corisande

He marries as Harry Abbott, yet appears from these letters to have died as William Abbott

 

The family legend is that his wife never knew who he really was until after his death. So why would anyone have registered his death as William. The informant on the doc would at least tell us who knew he was not Harry Abbott

 

But there is still nothing to show how HUBBARD  enters the fray

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Keith Brannen

I would assume that as time went on he may possibly have reverted to using his given name of William Henry, or the William part, but that is speculation. The Hubbard part enters in the letter IMG_0132.pdf, where it says the information was given to D J  Hooper & Co by his sister Mrs Richley who "informed us she had a brother William Henry who had some trouble with the Army, as a result of which he changed his name to Henry Abbott."

 

I think that Susan Tall may be on the right track, and that he may have been a deserter, and, while sheer speculation on my part, might have been either during training or possibly on leave, but I would assume definitely while in England.

 

EDIT: Again sheer speculation on my part, but I wonder if after he died, and the letter or visit from his sister to the wife which upset her, was because the sister finally informed the wife of the real reason he had "trouble with the army" rather than the story that he told. Again sheer speculation, but seems to fit.

Edited by Keith Brannen

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Susan Tall

Well I've found him on the 1901 census and his baptism, but it is even more confusing now!

 

In 1901 he is at 32 Sheridan St, Stepney with father Robert Hubbard, 44, a Cattle Drover, mother Elizabeth 43. 

William is down as 13 and born at City Minories.  Also in the family are Mary, 13, born Whitechapel, Matilda, 15 a cigar maker born Whitechapel and Elizabeth, 25, a domestic servant, born St Georges East.

 

I found his baptism in Holy Trinity Minories, Tower Hamlets, on 9th October 1887, born 25th August 1887, son of Robert Samuel and Elizabeth Maria Hubbard, 38 Haydon St.  Robert Samuel is a drover, BUT he was christened as William George Hubbard.

 

His sister Mary was baptised Mary Beatrice Hubbard, same church on 5th May 1889.  (The ages on the census are wrong as it has both William and Mary as aged 13).

 

Robert Samuel died in 1901 and his wife shortly after according to the aunt's report.

 

I can't find him in the 1911 census, but then I was looking for William Henry and not William George.

His older sister Elizabeth appears to be in Tower Hamlets workhouse.  She is a Cook but the reason for her being there is "No Home".

 

Will now go and look for a William George Hubbard!!

 

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corisande

The William Abbott who died in Bristol in Aug 1931, appears to have been 36 at death

 

In other words born circa 1895, so he could not have been 13 in 1901 census

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alf mcm

Ages on death certificates and censuses did not have to be verified, so cannot always be considered accurate.

Mrs Richley, mentioned on IMG_0131-1.pdf was Matilda A. Gadd, married for the second time. She was Matilda A. Hubbard when she married for the first time. She therefore knew that her brother had originally been called William Henry Hubbard, and had changed his name to Henry Abbott.

 

Regards,

 

Alf McM

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