Scottish Rifles Uniform

[Muerrisch]

Scraping  together what Denis Edwards discovered regarding additional badges for pipe majors. Much of this was done by correspondence with the regiments or their museums. Some of it is suspect. Leaving aside the more widespread additions, this is what I have, and happy to have corrections. In no particular order.

 

KOSB; pipes in wreath 1908 to 1934

RSF; grenade 1895 to 1908, St Andrew then added [badge on back of the book]

Cameronians; mullet, bugle horn in wreath with double-headed eagle above fro 1918

BW; pipes in wreath 'in' 1925

Seaforth;  pipes in wreath 1881 then deer in wreath 1895 to 1910 then deer, scroll, crowned thistle 1926

Gordon; deer in wreath 1865 onwards [really?]

 

Thinks ................. surely somebody has done the research  properly. I am way out of my depth with amatters Scottish.

 

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Muerrisch said:

Thinks ................. surely somebody has done the research  properly. I am way out of my depth with amatters Scottish.

 

It’s very niche as you have implied with your comments regarding how Denis Edwards fared when writing to regimental museum’s several decades ago now.  At best it might fill a full page in an in-depth work covering Scottish regimental uniforms.  Those same museums have not always thrived in the intervening years and to put matters into perspective it’s only been months since the oldest British Army infantry regiment, once regaled as ‘Pontius Pilates bodyguard’, along with the regiment that dispatched Bonny Dundee, both units veterans of Culloden in the service of the Crown, were effectively disbanded by merger to create a fourth so-called Ranger Regiment.  This occurred with barely a whimper.  No publicity, no public outcry, no retired general officers galvanising public opinion, and utterly spineless and silent regimental colonels.  It was shameful.

In that light the chances of anyone selling a book about pipe majors badges that were largely regimental and underpinned by very sketchy records, will be a tall order.  It seems to be largely North Americans who get swept up by the fancy dress inspired by the political ambitions of Sir Walter Scott anyway, and I doubt that many contemporary Scots would show a great deal of interest.  There just doesn’t seem to be the enthusiasm for such things nowadays, and the ranks of our small body of enthusiastic uniformologists, who remain determinedly interested, grows ever thinner.

Edited 14 March by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

6 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

It’s very niche as you have implied with your comments regarding how Denis Edwards fared when writing to regimental museum’s several decades ago now.  At best it might fill a full page in an in-depth work covering Scottish regimental uniforms.  Those same museums have not always thrived in the intervening years and to put matters into perspective it’s only been months since the oldest British Army infantry regiment once regaled as Pontious Pilots body guard along with the regiment that dispatched Bonny Dundee, both units veterans of Culloden in the service of the Crown, were effectively disbanded by merger to create a so-called Ranger Regiment.  This occurred with barely a whimper, no publicity, no public outcry, no retirees general officers galvanising public opinion and utterly spineless and silent regimental colonels.  It was shameful.  In that light the chances of anyone selling a book about pipe majors badges that were largely regimental and underpinned by very sketchy records will be a tall order.  It seems to be largely North Americans who get swept up by the fancy dress inspired by the political ambitions of Sir Walter Scott anyway and I doubt many contemporary Scots would show a great deal of interest.  There just doesn’t seem to be the enthusiasm for such things nowadays and the ranks of our small body of enthusiastic uniformologists grows ever thinner.

True. At least there is now this suspect list on the forum for some increasingly thinner North American to be prompted to study such 'fancy dress'.

[FROGSMILE]

2 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

True. At least there is now this suspect list on the forum for some increasingly thinner North American to be prompted to study such 'fancy dress'.

As you have chosen to be very selective with what you’ve quoted, to be crystal clear nothing pejorative was meant with any of my remarks.  I have merely said what is accurate and I cede to none my admiration of Scottish soldiers, as any who know me will testify.  Unlike some I’ve actually served alongside them. 

[Muerrisch]

7 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

As you have chosen to be very selective with what you’ve quoted, to be crystal clear nothing pejorative was meant with any of my remarks.  I have merely said what is accurate and I cede to none my admiration of Scottish soldiers, as any who know me will testify.  Unlike some I’ve actually served alongside them. 

Very wise!

[FROGSMILE]

1 minute ago, Muerrisch said:

Very wise!

So what was your intent with your pointed quotation, what were you hoping to achieve?

[gordon92]

2 hours ago, robbie56 said:

Gordon 92,

Your photograph of PM William Stuart c1905 appears to be the same photograph I posted with background, the wall and grass, in place. Any idea where the photograph was taken ?

R

The 1st Battalion Cameronians were in India from1894 until 1912. If the photo is around 1905, it would have been at Nowshera.

[robbie56]

Thanks Gordon92,

Reason I ask is because my Grandmother was born in Kalabagh 1905 and Nowshera is only 70ish miles north. Just a bit of detail for me.

[FROGSMILE]

11 hours ago, robbie56 said:

Thanks Gordon92,

Reason I ask is because my Grandmother was born in Kalabagh 1905 and Nowshera is only 70ish miles north. Just a bit of detail for me.

You might be interested to see this list of British Army stations in India as at November 1904:

https://usacac.army.mil/sites/default/files/documents/carl/nafziger/904KAC.pdf

Edited 15 March by FROGSMILE

[robbie56]

It’s surprising so many young soldiers spent most of their formative years outside of GB. 
 

ps I’m still looking for second album and have not forgotten the high resolution photos. I’ll pm you when I have the collection “done”.

The attached photograph annotated Rhaniket, previously published, has a chap in white uniform looking upwards towards an Indian gentleman, probably Muslim. Is the the white uniform military or that of a civilian on government service ?

[FROGSMILE]

55 minutes ago, robbie56 said:

It’s surprising so many young soldiers spent most of their formative years outside of GB. 
 

ps I’m still looking for second album and have not forgotten the high resolution photos. I’ll pm you when I have the collection “done”.

The attached photograph annotated Rhaniket, previously published, has a chap in white uniform looking upwards towards an Indian gentleman, probably Muslim. Is the the white uniform military or that of a civilian on government service ?

He’s a Cameronian wearing white (hot season) uniform with black buttons and the regimental white foreign service helmet.

I’ll be very grateful to see the scans.  As one of the smaller regiments the Cameronian’s have left a relatively small footprint which is why your collection of albums is so important.

You might find this of interest Robbie: http://www.boxpeopleandplaces.co.uk/army-life.html

Ranikhet was one of the several ‘hill stations’ where British regiments under ordinary routine went in the hot season in order to avoid the disease and hardships brought during the most baking hot weather down on the cantonments.  It was - “famous for its natural beauty and apple orchards. Located at an altitude of 6,132 ft above sea level and not only famous for its natural beauty, but also for being home to the famous Jhula Devi Temple.”

NB.  The boy in turban (pagri) won’t necessarily have been a Muslim, many of the different native groups wore a pagri and it’s appearance usually indicated their origin/allegiance.

 

Edited 15 March by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

Here are some more in hot season dress. In the lowermost photo the soldier is wearing a waist length drill jacket rather than the more usual white drill frock with cutaway front.  Wearing a simple white uniform during the hot season in India was a very long standing practice and the original khaki dress was merely that same uniform dyed into a dusty, stone-like hue with a variety of vegetable dyes to create a less conspicuous uniform that better matched the terrain.

Edited 15 March by FROGSMILE

[robbie56]

It was my assumption. As a youngster I grew up within the Indian and Pakistani cultures in and around the Indian Ocean area. I may have been looking with younger eyes at the headdress which was, relative to my distant memories or interpretation, usually accompanied by a style of dress which indicated their cultural identity. Maybe the distinction has changed with time and I take your point bearing in mind the photograph is 120 years ago !
 

I’ll hopefully get the photos scanned next week, probably the library. In total there’s about half a dozen that may be of interest. I’ll pm when done.

I have had a look, several hours in fact, trying to position the chaps in the above photograph. Problem I suspect is Rhaniket has expanded well beyond the hilltop houses in the background.

[robbie56]

 

Would this photograph be of Married / Residential Quarters ? Do you know where ?

R

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

19 minutes ago, robbie56 said:

 

Would this photograph be of Married / Residential Quarters ? Do you know where ?

R

 

 

That is one of the residential areas in Ranikhet, now a tourist holiday destination, and some of the buildings will be quite old, but I cannot say whether that was one of the military areas robbie. 

Edited 15 March by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, robbie56 said:

It was my assumption. As a youngster I grew up within the Indian and Pakistani cultures in and around the Indian Ocean area. I may have been looking with younger eyes at the headdress which was, relative to my distant memories or interpretation, usually accompanied by a style of dress which indicated their cultural identity. Maybe the distinction has changed with time and I take your point bearing in mind the photograph is 120 years ago !
 

I’ll hopefully get the photos scanned next week, probably the library. In total there’s about half a dozen that may be of interest. I’ll pm when done.

I have had a look, several hours in fact, trying to position the chaps in the above photograph. Problem I suspect is Rhaniket has expanded well beyond the hilltop houses in the background.

I’m sure if you were ever lucky enough to visit Ranikhet that someone would recognise the vista of that photo.

I’ll be very pleased to see the photos, thank you.

Thanks also for the super photo of the Cameronian’s (although the 2nd Battalion were sticklers for referring to themselves as Scottish Rifles and never Cameronian’s) Sergeant in undress frock (cold season working uniform - thin serge and unlined).

The little certificate taking a baby on to the strength (battalion’s nominal roll of “dependants”**) is significant because only once taken on the strength did the army take responsibility.  Amongst other things wives “on-the-strength” we’re entitled to a half government ration, and each child a quarter ration.

Given your childhood experience this might be of interest to you too:

1. https://www.oldindianphotos.in/2013/01/group-of-soldiers-possibly-in-india.html?m=1

2.https://www.rhodesia.me.uk/ranikhet/

** the official term still used today. 

Edited 15 March by FROGSMILE

[robbie56]

Many thanks for the old photographs and the links. It is extremely satisfying to see some of the buildings which my Gt Grandparents must have walked past on a daily basis.

The bottom photograph, “Ranikhet Cantonment”, with the blue/grey walls and red corrugated roof is very typical of British Military buildings in that part of the world. Indeed it looks a replica of similar buildings I knew in the 60s/70s.

The scenery in the area looks absolutely stunning. My Gt Grandfather left the Army 1912 with I now suspect seventeen years in India. He re-enlisted 1914 to the 7th Seaforth Highlanders. I agree he volunteered to go to France at 42 years of age with the battalion probably because he felt a significant sense of responsibility towards the young men he trained for 1915. Also there’s maybe something about not staying in the same place too long. France may just have been a natural step for him bearing in mind his movements in India.

Again, much appreciated.

[FROGSMILE]

56 minutes ago, robbie56 said:

Many thanks for the old photographs and the links. It is extremely satisfying to see some of the buildings which my Gt Grandparents must have walked past on a daily basis.

The bottom photograph, “Ranikhet Cantonment”, with the blue/grey walls and red corrugated roof is very typical of British Military buildings in that part of the world. Indeed it looks a replica of similar buildings I knew in the 60s/70s.

The scenery in the area looks absolutely stunning. My Gt Grandfather left the Army 1912 with I now suspect seventeen years in India. He re-enlisted 1914 to the 7th Seaforth Highlanders. I agree he volunteered to go to France at 42 years of age with the battalion probably because he felt a significant sense of responsibility towards the young men he trained for 1915. Also there’s maybe something about not staying in the same place too long. France may just have been a natural step for him bearing in mind his movements in India.

Again, much appreciated.

I’m pleased it was of interest Robbie, I’ve long had an ambition to visit a hill station, but I’m not sure if I’ll ever manage it.  I’ve just learned that the Indian Government apparently made a seismic decision last year to hand over (transfer) all of the cantonment management responsibilities for buildings outside the barracks from the army to local civic council leaders.  It ends many hundreds of years of the old system first established by the British.

I’m sure that you must be right about your grandfather’s motives when enlisting again, he was one of those who formed the backbone of the old regular army of 1914.  He would have been an interesting man to talk to and one of the first things I’d have asked him is how it felt to go from a regiment of Kirk going non-conformists to a kilted regiment that was probably very Catholic.  Two regiments who would at one time have been sworn enemies.

Edited 15 March by FROGSMILE

[robbie56]

……..and his brother was a Church of England minister.

[FROGSMILE]

Just now, robbie56 said:

……..and his brother was a Church of England minister.

Well maybe that sums things up perfectly.  In truth I think that the days of religion being truly important in the Cameronian’s were long gone by WW1 and in any case it had been the 1st Battalion’s forebears who came from those origins, I doubt that the Scottish Rifles (2nd Battalion) cared one way or the other.