Scottish Rifles Uniform

[Alan24]

Mark & FS,

 

Had a look on Sunday and as expected no example of Colour Sergeant insignia on display, except for a set of Green Jackets era sleeve badges, but low light and glass made this difficult to photo.

 

There is no curator on duty at weekends so maybe it'll have to be a written inquiry to see what they have in the vaults.

 

One thing that may interest you is this Brassard as worn by a member of the RB, other than that, no Great War uniforms on display.

 

Regards

 

Alan.

[FROGSMILE]

Thank you for taking the time and trouble Alan.  If you are ever able to get a photo of the badge from the vaults/archives, I know that Mark and I will be very grateful.  Few seem to have survived, probably due to moths, but there must be a few out there somewhere.

[MBrockway]

On 03/09/2018 at 20:33, Alan24 said:

Mark & FS,

 

Had a look on Sunday and as expected no example of Colour Sergeant insignia on display, except for a set of Green Jackets era sleeve badges, but low light and glass made this difficult to photo.

 

There is no curator on duty at weekends so maybe it'll have to be a written inquiry to see what they have in the vaults.

 

One thing that may interest you is this Brassard as worn by a member of the RB, other than that, no Great War uniforms on display.

 

Regards

 

Alan.

 

 

Crikey - didn't know that was there!  I am VERY familiar with these images though ...

 

King George V presents the VC to Corporal William Beesley, 13th Battalion, Rifle Brigade, at Third Army HQ at Frohen-le-Grand, 9 August 1918. 

© IWM (Q 11129)

 

Beesley was plain Rifleman when he took part in the action on 08 May 1918 at Bucquoy for which he was awarded the VC, but had made Corporal before HM the King presented the medal.  The insignia are for 111th Inf Brigade (blue triangle), 37th Division (yellow horseshoe) and I think the red bar on the epaulette represents the company

 

In the same 13/RB action at Bucquoy, Serjeant William Gregg was also awarded the VC.  Gregg was already a DCM and MM holder.  Here's the two of them with Beesley on the left (not on the right as captioned by the IWM on their 'new, improved' website) ...

 

 

© IWM (Q 11134)

 

 

Interesting that Beesley appears to have the black/green RB rank badge and is only wearing it on the right sleeve, while Gregg has standard serjeant's stripes worn conventionally.

 

© IWM (Q 11135)

 

Their VC citations are here

 

 

Mark

 

 

Edited 12 March , 2021 by MBrockway
Broken links repaired

[Steven Broomfield]

Out of interest, every time I've looked at that item of clothing I wonder about the term 'brassard'. It looks more to me like the sleeve and shoulder strap (and shoulder) of the jacket have been carefully preserved, rather than a brassard as such.

[Alan24]

2 hours ago, Steven Broomfield said:

Out of interest, every time I've looked at that item of clothing I wonder about the term 'brassard'. It looks more to me like the sleeve and shoulder strap (and shoulder) of the jacket have been carefully preserved, rather than a brassard as such.

What would its purpose be?

In the first of Mark's photos all the same insignia appears to be stitched directly to the jacket's sleeve.

 

Alan.

[Steven Broomfield]

I suspect that someone, at some point, cut up the jacket, hemmed the end pieces, and made a very nice memento. My guess would be a proud mum, wife or girlfriend, and it was presented to the museum/regiment along with other memorabilia.

[charlie962]

Great photo of the two proud smiling VC winners.

[Alan24]

4 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Great photo of the two proud smiling VC winners.

 

Those photos also formed part a temporary exhibition in the RGJ Museum detailing VC winners of the KRRC and RB (...and possibly Ox & Bucks?) which unfortunately has just closed.

25 or 26 stories were told and the museum holds 12 of the VCs. 2 Others are in private hands and most of the rest are in the Ashcroft Gallery IIRC. 

 

The Winchester Museums as a group have between them the largest group of VCs outside London.

 

Regards

 

Alan.

[Heid the Ba]

Excellent photos, thanks for posting. 

Edited 4 September , 2018 by Heid the Ba

[MBrockway]

22 minutes ago, Alan24 said:

 

Those photos also formed part a temporary exhibition in the RGJ Museum detailing VC winners of the KRRC and RB (...and possibly Ox & Bucks?) which unfortunately has just closed.

25 or 26 stories were told and the museum holds 12 of the VCs. 2 Others are in private hands and most of the rest are in the Ashcroft Gallery IIRC. 

 

The Winchester Museums as a group have between them the largest group of VCs outside London.

 

Regards

 

Alan.

 

The VC's used to be quite well covered on the old RGJ Museum website, but since they updated same for the hard of thinking, most of the useful/interesting stuff seems to have gone

 

I'm shooting from the hip here, but doesn't The Rifles have the highest VC count of any of the British Army regiments?  IIRC, it used to be the RGJ.

 

Mark

 

[Steven Broomfield]

1 hour ago, MBrockway said:

 

 

 

 

I'm shooting from the hip here, but doesn't The Rifles have the highest VC count of any of the British Army regiments?  IIRC, it used to be the RGJ.

 

Mark

 

 

Almost certainly, on the basis that it has the highest count of regiments of any regiment in the British Army

 

Amongst them: RB, 60th, Ox & Bucks, KSLI, SLI, DCLI, KOYLI, Glosters, Devons, Wilts, Berks, Dorset. I may have forgotten a few.

[FROGSMILE]

On 03/09/2018 at 22:29, FROGSMILE said:

Thank you for taking the time and trouble Alan.  If you are ever able to get a photo of the badge from the vaults/archives, I know that Mark and I will be very grateful.  Few seem to have survived, probably due to moths, but there must be a few out there somewhere.

 

After years of looking I've managed to find the relevant badge for Colour Sergeants of Rifle Regiments post 1902.  Herewith enclosed for posterity.

 

[michaela]

On 27/08/2018 at 14:14, robbie56 said:

Thanks Frogsmile, I enjoyed the read. Attached are more photographs from the same period in India. 

R

My English great grandfather was killed WW1 whilst serving in the Seaforth Highlanders.

 

Great photos! My great grandfather was in the Scottish Rifles and served in Nowshera. See attached photo. Would it be possible to recognize him in the top group photo? Many thanks

[FROGSMILE]

32 minutes ago, michaela said:

 

Great photos! My great grandfather was in the Scottish Rifles and served in Nowshera. See attached photo. Would it be possible to recognize him in the top group photo? Many thanks

There were around a thousand men in an infantry battalion overseas at that time Michaela, organised in 8 companies (lettered A to H) with over 100 men in each plus a headquarters staff.  The group photo is just one company - H. 

[michaela]

Thank you Frogsmile. Where would I find info as to what group my great grandfather was in?

[FROGSMILE]

47 minutes ago, michaela said:

Thank you Frogsmile. Where would I find info as to what group my great grandfather was in?

It depends on whether his service record has survived Michaela.  Something like 5/6th of the military records of soldiers who served in WW1 were destroyed by firebombs on London Docks in 1941.  Do you know anything at all about the dates that he served?

 If you post all the personal details that you have of him focusing on full name, date of birth and home town it might be possible to trace some basic details and see whether he served during WW1.

[michaela]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

It depends on whether his service record has survived Michaela.  Something like 5/6th of the military records of soldiers who served in WW1 were destroyed by firebombs on London Docks in 1941.  Do you know anything at all about the dates that he served?

 If you post all the personal details that you have of him focusing on full name, date of birth and home town it might be possible to trace some basic details and see whether he served during WW1.

His full name, Thomas Green born 1883 Burnley. He joined the East Lancs in Aug 1901 for a term of six years, no 1358 but was transferred to the Scottish Rifles in May1902. I have his attestation for 1901, but gives no more info after 1902. He was also serving during WW1, but I haven’t found his service or medal documents for that period. I posted on here with a view to finding something for WW1, but no one could find anything. I have since received a birth certificate for his son for 1916 where he gives his occupation as corporal 12th Scottish Rifles (reservist). His service term must have been divided in 2, as in 1911 he is working as an iron turner in Burnley, and in 1907 married in Burnley.

Edited 9 February , 2021 by michaela

[FROGSMILE]

40 minutes ago, michaela said:

His full name, Thomas Green born 1883 Burnley. He joined the East Lancs in Aug 1901 for a term of six years, no 1358 but was transferred to the Scottish Rifles in May1902. I have his attestation for 1901, but gives no more info after 1902. He was also serving during WW1, but I haven’t found his service or medal documents for that period. I posted on here with a view to finding something for WW1, but no one could find anything. I have since received a birth certificate for his son for 1916 where he gives his occupation as corporal 12th Scottish Rifles (reservist). His service term must have been divided in 2, as in 1911 he is working as an iron turner in Burnley, and in 1907 married in Burnley.

The normal term of service at that time was 12-years, Michaela.  For the infantry it was divided as 7-years with the colours (meaning full time regular service) and 5-years with the regular reserve (meaning he could be called up in an emergency).  
 

The 12th Reserve Battalion did not go overseas, which was quite normal, as it was a Reserve unit intended specifically for providing trained replacements to the front line and he might well have served out the war training or administering others.  
 

Some forum members such as @PRC and @Matlock1418 might be able to find out a little more about his civilian and military life, but I’m unsure what might have survived.

 

12th (Reserve) Battalion Cameronian’s (Scottish Rifles).
Formed at Nigg in October 1914 as a Service Battalion of K4 and came under orders of 101st Brigade, original 34th Division. Moved to Tain in February 1915.
10 April 1915 : became a Reserve Battalion and moved to Stobs in May 1915. By December it had moved to Catterick.
1 September 1916 : converted into 56th Training Reserve Battalion of 12th Reserve Brigade at Kinghorn.

Edited 9 February , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Matlock1418]

4 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Some forum members such as @PRC and @Matlock1418 might be able to find out a little more about his civilian and military life, but I’m unsure what might have survived.

Surely happy to help if I / probably if we can - We might find something [but no rash promises from me]

- perhaps more likely so from PRC [No pressure, eh? But he can make his own promises!] ;-)

Michaela,

Please ... Any other details of key events and/or issues which can help a great deal?

As you don't mention and he didn't seem to immediately pop up on CWGC - did he survived the war ??  [I hope he did]

Did he suffer any injuries or disability ?? [I rather hope not]

Name of wife and son and any pre- & post-war addresses will no doubt aid PRC [and perhaps me]

And potentially any other army numbers you might have - though I suspect you don't have such as again I suspect you would have mentioned

 

@FROGSMILE - Would numbers have changed between pre-war service and/or in wartime service?

And if so in what manner?

Perhaps we on GWF [and I really mean you and others on this as not at all my bag] could find others close to him ???

:-) M

[michaela]

36 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Surely happy to help if I / probably if we can - We might find something [but no rash promises from me]

- perhaps more likely so from PRC [No pressure, eh? But he can make his own promises!] ;-)

Michaela,

Please ... Any other details of key events and/or issues which can help a great deal?

As you don't mention and he didn't seem to immediately pop up on CWGC - did he survived the war ??  [I hope he did]

Did he suffer any injuries or disability ?? [I rather hope not]

Name of wife and son and any pre- & post-war addresses will no doubt aid PRC [and perhaps me]

And potentially any other army numbers you might have - though I suspect you don't have such as again I suspect you would have mentioned

 

@FROGSMILE - Would numbers have changed between pre-war service and/or in wartime service?

And if so in what manner?

Perhaps we on GWF [and I really mean you and others on this as not at all my bag] could find others close to him ???

:-) M

Thomas was born and lived in Burnley. His address in 1901 was 58 Leyland Rd, Burnley. He married in 1907 to Jane Williamson. They had 3 children, Rose Ellen in 1908, Thomas 1910 and James 1916. In 1939 his address was 30 St Cuthbert St, Burnley. He died in 1954. I did find on an Absent Voters list for Burnley a Thomas Green, Scottish Rifles, Pte no 7547, address 60 Lyndhurst Rd, Burnley, but I am not sure it relates to my Thomas. Many thanks for your offer to help.

[PRC]

Well no promises from me either if @Matlock1418won't commit

 

18 hours ago, michaela said:

His full name, Thomas Green born 1883 Burnley. He joined the East Lancs in Aug 1901 for a term of six years, no 1358

 

The records you have there are in the WO96 series and cover an attestation in the Militia. He joined the 3rd Battalion of the East Lancashire Militia on the 5th July 1901, aged 17 years and 8 months. The Militia was a locally paid for and controlled organisation, entirely separate from the British Army, (although several reforms had tried to bring them closer together including affiliating them with the County Regiment), but their role was primarily defence of their own county from external invasion and to supplement the local police force in cases of civil unrest and the breakdown of law and order.

 

For many young man under 18 it was a dry run for joining the Army, as the training they received on enlisting would serve as a boot camp for joining the Regulars.

 

On the form he describes himself as a Mechanic, but not an apprentice. His next of kin were father Thomas, mother Ellen and an elder brother James. He and they were living at 58 Leyland Road, Burnley.

 

Which is not quite where they were to be found or how they were listed on the 1901 Census of England & Wales– they were recorded at 52 Leyland Road, 58 being noted as an unoccupied property. The 17 year old Thomas, born Burnley, is actually recorded as an Apprentice in a Foundry. Perhaps he lost his apprenticeship and that was why he was considering joining the Army.

Parents are Thomas, (56, Cotton weaver, born Manchester) and Hellen(?), (aged 52, born Ireland). Children living with them include a 21 year old James, a Cotton weaver, born Burnley.

 

The final part of his militia record is effectively stating that he has resigned to join the Scottish Rifles on the 23rd May 1902.

 

Paul Nixon’s Army Numbers site tells us that the Scottish Rifles issued numbers 7435 on the 2nd January 1902 and 7780 on the 11th February 1903.

https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2014/10/cameronians-scottish-rifles-1881-1914.html

 

11 hours ago, michaela said:

I did find on an Absent Voters list for Burnley a Thomas Green, Scottish Rifles, Pte no 7547, address 60 Lyndhurst Rd, Burnley, but I am not sure it relates to my Thomas.

 

Well if that is a Regular Army number that would fit right in.

 

However:-

7520 Charles McIntosh enlisted 12th March 1902 (Silver War Badge Roll)

7571 George R. Kinsit enlisted 16th April 1902 (Silver War Badge Roll)

7572 Robert Callighan enlisted 15th July 1902 (Silver War Badge Roll)

 

I’m working from the transcripts on FMP so would appreciate if someone could check Kinsit on Ancestry.

 

As @FROGSMILE says, the standard enlistment term was 12 years and at the time he signed up the most common split was 7 years in the colours and 5 in the reserves. But as he married in 1907 and the first child was born in 1908, that would tend to suggest he did a 3 years in the colours and 9 in the reserves split – which co-incidentally the British Army tried pushing from 1903 onwards.

 

Either way however his 12 years would have been up just before the outbreak of war. A man could opt to extend his period in the reserves by another 4 years, which would allow him to retain his original service number. I think some men just turned up at the barracks gate even though they were under no legal obligation to serve. Note if he had been discharged from his original enlistment and joined up again then he would have had a new service number. A slight fly in the ointment, as I have been discovering while wading through Military records, is that Special Reservists who joined the Scottish Rifles in the opening month of the war also seem to have been issued with a four digit number starting 75xx.

 

Still it's  very strong chance from the service number that you have found the right man.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

Edited 10 February , 2021 by PRC
Typo

[FROGSMILE]

An absolutely brilliant interpretation Peter, and your explanation of the Militia as an institution especially so for Michaela to understand.  I’m most intrigued by the mention of an Apprenticeship because for a long time there was a clause in the attestation document requiring the recruit to declare under penalty of prosecution that he was not an [indentured] apprentice.  I don’t know when, or if that clause was removed, but recall that it had been put in because of complaints in Parliament that too many apprentices were using enlistment as a means to escape their masters.  That said it might just have been the regular army attestation but given that the Militia was a common route into the army as you’ve said, it does beg a question as to what had occurred in this case.

 

 I note your comment about the 3 and 9 engagement and recall that the army did indeed promote that split for a period with the express intent of building up the size of the regular reserve as quickly as possible.

Edited 10 February , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Alan24]

8 hours ago, PRC said:

7571 George R. Kinsit enlisted 16th April 1902 (Silver War Badge Roll)

7572 Robert Callighan enlisted 15th July 1902 (Silver War Badge Roll)

I’m working from the transcripts on FMP so would appreciate if someone could check Kinsit on Ancestry.

 

Kinsit was 16th July 1902. The 7s on this page look like 4s. Clearly a transcript error on the part of FMP.

 

 

[Matlock1418]

8 hours ago, PRC said:

Well no promises from me either if @Matlock1418won't commit

Peter, What can I say?  The usual splendid service and in the usual incredibly short time [don't know how you manage it!] :-)

 

47 minutes ago, Alan24 said:

Yes, I too think Kinsit's month of enlistment was 7 - i.e. 16 July 1902

 

Sorry, nothing more on Thomas Green leaping out for me at the moment I'm afraid.

:-) M

Edited 10 February , 2021 by Matlock1418
clarification

[michaela]

9 hours ago, PRC said:

Well no promises from me either if @Matlock1418won't commit

 

 

The records you have there are in the WO96 series and cover an attestation in the Militia. He joined the 3rd Battalion of the East Lancashire Militia on the 5th July 1901, aged 17 years and 8 months. The Militia was a locally paid for and controlled organisation, entirely separate from the British Army, (although several reforms had tried to being them closer together including affiliating them with the County Regiment), but their role was primarily defence of their own county from external invasion and to supplement the local police force in cases of civil unrest and the breakdown of law and order.

 

For many young man under 18 it was a dry run for joining the Army, as the training they received on enlisting would serve as a boot camp for joining the Regulars.

 

On the form he describes himself as a Mechanic, but not an apprentice. His next of kin were father Thomas, mother Ellen and an elder brother James. He and they were living at 58 Leyland Road, Burnley.

 

Which is not quite where they were to be found or how they were listed on the 1901 Census of England & Wales– they were recorded at 52 Leyland Road, 58 being noted as an unoccupied property. The 17 year old Thomas, born Burnley, is actually recorded as an Apprentice in a Foundry. Perhaps he lost his apprenticeship and that was why he was considering joining the Army.

Parents are Thomas, (56, Cotton weaver, born Manchester) and Hellen(?), (aged 52, born Ireland). Children living with them include a 21 year old James, a Cotton weaver, born Burnley.

 

The final part of his militia record is effectively stating that he has resigned to join the Scottish Rifles on the 23rd May 1902.

 

Paul Nixon’s Army Numbers site tells us that the Scottish Rifles issued numbers 7435 on the 2nd January 1902 and 7780 on the 11th February 1903.

https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2014/10/cameronians-scottish-rifles-1881-1914.html

 

 

Well if that is a Regular Army number that would fit right in.

 

However:-

7520 Charles McIntosh enlisted 12th March 1902 (Silver War Badge Roll)

7571 George R. Kinsit enlisted 16th April 1902 (Silver War Badge Roll)

7572 Robert Callighan enlisted 15th July 1902 (Silver War Badge Roll)

 

I’m working from the transcripts on FMP so would appreciate if someone could check Kinsit on Ancestry.

 

As @FROGSMILE says, the standard enlistment term was 12 years and at the time he signed up the most common split was 7 years in the colours and 5 in the reserves. But as he married in 1907 and the first child was born in 1908, that would tend to suggest he did a 3 years in the colours and 9 in the reserves split – which co-incidentally the British Army tried pushing from 1903 onwards.

 

Either way however his 12 years would have been up just before the outbreak of war. A man could opt to extend his period in the reserves by another 4 years, which would allow him to retain his original service number. I think some men just turned up at the barracks gate even though they were under no legal obligation to serve. Note if he had been discharged from his original enlistment and joined up again then he would have had a new service number. A slight fly in the ointment, as I have been discovering while wading through Military records, is that Special Reservists who joined the Scottish Rifles in the opening month of the war also seem to have been issued with a four digit number starting 75xx.

 

Still it's  very strong chance from the service number that you have found the right man.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

Wow, thank you. That info is brilliant, it explains a lot. The family in 1901 census is indeed his family. The attestation documents I have list his father Thos, mother Ellen and brother James. Thomas did work as an iron turner at the foundry in his civilian life. His brother James also enlisted in 1899, but paid for his discharge after 8 days, his address was 52 Leyland Rd, Burnley. Oh yes, his birth was Dec 1883, which would make his age mentioned correct.

Edited 10 February , 2021 by michaela