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gc1

Scottish Rifles Uniform

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gc1

Hello

 

This is a photo of my Grandfather James Albert Hall b. 1890. It is assumed this was taken on his wedding day? I have not been able to find out anything at all about his WW1 service. I found a medal card, but no record to tie up to the service number. 

It has suddenly dawned on me that it was only family research, that we decided this is the uniform of the scottish rifles - I wonder if anyone is able to confirm that. Also I am really confused about the scarf he's wearing.

Unfortunately I know very little about my Grandfather as he left my Grandmother and his children in 1940. 

I'd be so grateful if anyone is able to help confirmation of the uniform, especially as he was a Londoner, seems strange that he was in a scottish regiment.

 

 

mf16497801hall8x10.jpg

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charlie962
24 minutes ago, gc1 said:

scottish rifles

Welcome gc1.        Indeed, the cap badge of the Cameronians (Scottish Rifles)

                                2037998058_Cameronianscapbadge.JPG.4164a9d8113a9173922cd8dd31308c77.JPG

 

A lot of Londoners went into Scottish units.

 

Charlie

Edited by charlie962

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Steven Broomfield

The scarf looks distinctly non-regulation, so I wonder if he wore it while on leave to look good and also to prevent the collar of his jacket chafing.

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gc1

Thank you both for your replies and I can now definitely at least be sure this is the Scottish Rifles Regiment.

As far as the scarf is concerned I think you must be right, I just wanted to make I was'nt missing something with the uniform. 

Also I just realised if this is his wedding day it would have been December 1913, so before the war.

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munce

I think that type of headress was only introduced in 1915.

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Steven Broomfield

Technically, the regiment was The Cameronians (The Scottish Rifles), created in 1881 by the amalgamation of the 26th (Cameronians) and 90th (Perthshire Light Infantry). There was a long-standing between the 1st Battalion (ex-26th) and 2nd battalion (ex-90th) to the extent that the 1st Battalion referred to themselves as The Cameronians, whilst the 2nd were The Scottish Rifles.

 

Not particularly relevant to the picture, but a bit of background.

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robbie56

Great grandfather in the Cameronians, English as well.

FullSizeRender.jpg

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FROGSMILE
On 26/08/2018 at 21:51, robbie56 said:

Great grandfather in the Cameronians, English as well.

FullSizeRender.jpg

 

Great picture.  The two officers in centre, OC and 2i/c, are both observing mourning for the Old Queen, as per Queen’s Regulations for the Army, by wearing black crepe arm bands left upper arm. On their left is the company Colour Sergeant with a Rifles pattern Colour Sergeants badge (a crossed swords and bugle arrangement in lieu of colours) on his right upper arm.  To the top left of the frame you can just about see the rest of the company banked up in four rows, probably ready for the officers and NCOs to join them for the second portrait.

 

From the 1890s on there were large contingents of English and Irish in almost all of the Scottish regiments, as recruitment in Scotland had suffered a decline  in numbers.

Edited by FROGSMILE

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charlie962

Good photo and good comentary by Frogsmile

 

Charlie

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robbie56

Thanks Frogsmile, I enjoyed the read. Attached are more photographs from the same period in India. 

R

My English great grandfather was killed WW1 whilst serving in the Seaforth Highlanders.

IMG_2706.jpg

IMG_2707.jpg

IMG_2709.jpg

IMG_2711.jpg

IMG_2713.jpg

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FROGSMILE

Thank you so much for posting these photos, all are interesting, but I especially like the second picture down showing the battalion HQ ‘Staff Sergeants’ (seated) and the Colour Sergeants (standing behind).  These are all of the most senior other ranks of the battalion, and career men all.  They were in effect the engine room of the unit.

 

Front row, left to right:

 

1. The Pioneer Sergeant,

2. the Armourer Sergeant,

3. the Regimental Quartermaster Sergeant,

4. the Bandmaster (a warrant officer),

5. the Sergeant Major of battalion (a warrant officer and after 1915 ‘RSM’),

6. the Schoolmaster (at most senior grade a warrant officer - notice cap with crown in lieu of a badge of rank),

7. the Bugle Major,

8. and finally, very probably the Orderly Room Sergeant (aka Chief Clerk).

 

Notice the spelling “Color”, which was still common in British-English at that time.

 

The wedding photo of the Sergeant Drummer (later returned to title of Drum Major) is very evocative of the period and the groom and several of the guests are from the Black Watch.

 

Also the tennis party with the narrow striped kamarbands holding up the white trousers, which was a particularly common affectation when playing sports and led to stripes in regimental colours.

 

Footnote.  I'm intrigued that the Cameronian's Armourer Sergeant is still wearing regimental dress as from 1898 he was ordered to wear the uniform of the Army Ordnance Corps!

Edited by FROGSMILE

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gordon92

I especially like the 4th photo down taken at the wedding of Sergeant Drummer ???? (cannot fully decipher the script) who is clearly sitting in 2nd row center.  There are several other sergeants present undoubtedly from the 2nd Battalion Black Watch.  I would date this photo as 1902-1905 at either Ambala or Peshawar.  By 1906 the 2nd BW had received Wolseley pattern helmets.

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FROGSMILE
15 minutes ago, gordon92 said:

I especially like the 4th photo down taken at the wedding of Sergeant Drummer ???? (cannot fully decipher the script) who is clearly sitting in 2nd row center.  There are several other sergeants present undoubtedly from the 2nd Battalion Black Watch.  I would date this photo as 1902-1905 at either Ambala or Peshawar.  By 1906 the 2nd BW had received Wolseley pattern helmets.

 

The name is Sergeant Drummer ‘Henderson’.

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robbie56

All the photographs I have are annotated Kalabagh, Nowshera or Lucknow dated 1900 to 1906. 

The women look ,ummmm, slightly less "substantial" than their husbands. I believe a few of the men married in haste whilst between tour in the UK. Indeed I know of a couple who met on their wedding day and a week or so later off on a boat to India.

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FROGSMILE
7 hours ago, robbie56 said:

All the photographs I have are annotated Kalabagh, Nowshera or Lucknow dated 1900 to 1906. 

The women look ,ummmm, slightly less "substantial" than their husbands. I believe a few of the men married in haste whilst between tour in the UK. Indeed I know of a couple who met on their wedding day and a week or so later off on a boat to India.

 

The most striking thing to me looking with relatively modern eyes is that none of the ‘sitters’ are smiling - it looks decidedly odd, but of course photos were such formal events still at that time so perhaps I should not be surprised.  Thank you again for posting such evocative and interesting images.

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gc1

Robbie your photographs are amazing, so much history. Thank you for sharing them.

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gordon92
20 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

The name is Sergeant Drummer ‘Henderson’.

Thank you for the interpretation.  I admire your visual acuity.

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FROGSMILE
40 minutes ago, gordon92 said:

Thank you for the interpretation.  I admire your visual acuity.

 

Glad to help.  It’s more to do with long practice reading and signing off Army documents I think. 

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MBrockway
On 27/08/2018 at 15:16, FROGSMILE said:

Thank you so much for posting these photos, all are interesting, but I especially like the second picture down showing the battalion HQ ‘Staff Sergeants’ (seated) and the Colour Sergeants (standing behind).  These are all of the most senior other ranks of the battalion, and career men all.  They were in effect the engine room of the unit.

 

 

Hear, hear, as good a set of rifles badges as I have seen for a long time.

Mark

 

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FROGSMILE
17 hours ago, MBrockway said:

 

Hear, hear, as good a set of rifles badges as I have seen for a long time.

Mark

 

 

Yes, I thought exactly that too, Mark.  If you can provide a decent photo of an actual RB/Cams 'Colour Sergeant' badge of that, final pattern before they were abolished, I'd be most grateful.  The only one I've been able to track down is KRRC, and that is a only poor image.

 

krrcbadge1887.jpg

Edited by FROGSMILE

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MBrockway

That's the same image I have in my own files!  I have nothing for the RB nor Scottish Rifles and the only other close-up I have is the very poor diagram (#210) in the 1916 Rank At A Glance booklet ...

 

1617485148_Rankbadges-ColourSerjeantRifleRegts.jpg.03d083f7680f0ccfb64936a5fc7d6b11.jpg

 

 

This gives no clue on the colours used nor the felt backing.  Also by 1916 it was probably wrong anyway!

 

I'll have a look through my photo collection - I might spot some examples from the KRRC, but I have much less RB material.

 

Edited by MBrockway
Crop was too large & bits of next badge intruded

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FROGSMILE
1 hour ago, MBrockway said:

That's the same image I have in my own files!  I have nothing for the RB nor Scottish Rifles and the only other close-up I have is the very poor diagram (#210) in the 1916 Rank At A Glance booklet ...

This gives no clue on the colours used nor the felt backing.  Also by 1916 it was probably wrong anyway!

 

I'll have a look through my photo collection - I might spot some examples from the KRRC, but I have much less RB material.

 

 

Thanks Mark, I have all those images too, and a variety of B&W photos are available, especially on TF uniform.  Like you, I suspect, it’s photos of the cloth badge itself that I seek.  I imagine that the regimental museums have some, but there don’t seem to be any images of them available online.  There are some of the much earlier pattern in GMIC, but it’s the final pattern that seems so hard to find.

 

Regards,

 

FS

Edited by FROGSMILE

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Alan24
20 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

  I imagine that the regimental museums have some, but there don’t seem to be any images of them available online.  

Next time I'm in Winchester I'll have a look at what's on display for you.(they may be not all be on display)

This could be as early as this Sunday or may be in the next couple of weeks or so...depends on weather, opening times etc.

I think the Rifles Museum still opens at weekends from noon in the autumn (whereas the Hants Regiment does not open at weekends out of season.)

 

Regards

 

Alan 

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FROGSMILE
47 minutes ago, Alan24 said:

Next time I'm in Winchester I'll have a look at what's on display for you.(they may be not all be on display)

This could be as early as this Sunday or may be in the next couple of weeks or so...depends on weather, opening times etc.

I think the Rifles Museum still opens at weekends from noon in the autumn (whereas the Hants Regiment does not open at weekends out of season.)

 

Regards

 

Alan 

 

Thank you Alan, I will be very grateful.  They were in use a relatively short time within the Army’s history and being made of worsted wool not that many will have survived.

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MBrockway

Alan - I'd really appreciate any photos/info too.  Cheers, Mark

 

 

 

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