Scottish Rifles Uniform

[FROGSMILE]

23 minutes ago, michaela said:

Wow, thank you. That info is brilliant, it explains a lot. The family in 1901 census is indeed his family. The attestation documents I have list his father Thos, mother Ellen and brother James. Thomas did work as an iron turner at the foundry in his civilian life. His brother James also enlisted in 1899, but paid for his discharge after 8 days, his address was 52 Leyland Rd, Burnley. Oh yes, his birth was Dec 1883, which would make his age mentioned correct.

It’s pleasing to know that a joint effort has enabled you to learn more, especially the details given by Peter and Matlock.  It seems likely that your forebear stayed with the 12th Reserve Battalion of the Cameronian’s throughout the war, as there doesn’t seem to be a medal index card and roll entry for him.  I’m not sure if you noticed that I included the formation place and movements of his battalion in one of my earlier posts above?

Edited 10 February , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[michaela]

A photo of Thomas Green abt 1914 considering the age of the children. Not very clear, but you can just make out the cap badge.

[michaela]

5 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

It’s pleasing to know that a joint effort has enabled you to learn more, especially the details given by Peter and Matlock.  It seems likely that your forebear stayed with the 12th Reserve Battalion of the Cameronian’s throughout the war, as there doesn’t seem to be a medal index card and roll entry for him.  I’m not sure if you noticed that I included the formation place and movements of his battalion in one of my earlier posts above?

Thank you. That really is the explanation for the lack of records. Much appreciated.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, michaela said:

Thank you. That really is the explanation for the lack of records. Much appreciated.

He would still have had a full service record from his pre-war service, but because he re-enlisted or re-engaged during WW1 his consolidated file of documents would have been with all the others stored in London docks and firebombed in 1941 during WW2.  The medal records were kept separately and compiled after WW1, but because he did not serve overseas he would not have received any.

Edited 10 February , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

2 hours ago, Alan24 said:

Kinsit was 16th July 1902. The 7s on this page look like 4s. Clearly a transcript error on the part of FMP.

 

 

 

@Alan24 - Thank you very much for checking – I had my fingers crossed as that was the only thing that made sense.

 

10 hours ago, PRC said:

7520 Charles McIntosh enlisted 12th March 1902 (Silver War Badge Roll)

7571 George R. Kinsit enlisted 16th April 1902 (Silver War Badge Roll)

7572 Robert Callighan enlisted 15th July 1902 (Silver War Badge Roll)

For them to have recruited 50 in a month and then none at all for three months seemed a tad unlikely

(Either that or it was the other two that were wrong!)

 

@michaela

 

Still not quite a smoking gun, but I think it boils down to four scenarios.

• 1)     He enlists in May 1902 as 7547, does his 12 years, probably on a 3 and 9 split, and at the end opts for a further 4 years in the Reserves, retaining his regimental number. He joins Army Reserve D – see https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/enlisting-into-the-army/british-army-reserves-and-reservists/
• 2)     He enlists in May 1902 as 7547, does his 12 years, probably on a 3 and 9 split, and in the late spring of 1914 he walks away from the Army, time expired and under no legal obligation to report in the outbreak of war. However on general mobilisation he turns up anyway and by a bit of administrative sleight of hand is put back on the books under his old number rather than requiring him to sign a new term of enlistment.

The next couple are based on my study so far of men joining the Norfolk Regiment in August 1914 as Special Reservists, so a relatively small sample and I have no idea whether it applies to the Scottish Rifles. Some regiments chose to issue Special Reservists with service numbers drawn from the general Regular Army series, others gave then numbers from a parallel series with a prefix – usually 3/ but in the case of the Scottish Rifles this was possibly a prefix A/ or B/. Unfortunately prefixes are quite often the first things that gets dropped on things like MiCs.

 

In my experience with the Norfolks, the Special Reserve option was used as a way to sign up time-expired veterans who did want to have another 12 year commitment, and the status of the Short-Service enlistments that would become more commonplace in the following months was still being thrashed out. While the headline said a 6 year commitment, the form was a bit like the militia one in that a man could state how many years they were actually prepared to serve. In some cases the 6 was crossed through instead and replaced with a lower number. This allowed the regiments to build up cadres of time served men who may be were not up to physical standard for front line service or who were overage for field service but could provide training cadres for the rapidly expanding army. Such men weren't the only ones recruited as a Special Reservist but certainly with the Norfolks it is a recurring theme.

 

In the case of service number 7547 in the Scottish Rifles there is an A/7547 George Thomson and a B/7547 John Elvin \ Elven, (things are never simple, so there are MiCs for both spellings but the documents are cross referenced). While potentially that rules out Thomas Green as a Special Reservist I just don’t know enough about their numbering schema to say that with confidence. You really need a Scottish Rifles expert for that.

 

So that last two scenarios , (and there may be others), are

• 3)     He enlists in May 1902 with an unknown service number, does his 12 years, probably on a 3 and 9 split, and in the late spring of 1914 he walks away from the Army, time expired and under no legal obligation to report in the outbreak of war. On the outbreak of war he signs up as a Special Reservist for at least 2 years – in the spring of 1916 the Military Services Act extended all enlistments to make them for the duration of the war. He receives a Special Reservist number 7547.
• 4)     He enlists in May 1902 with an unknown service number, but does not complete his 12 years, being either honourably or dishonourably discharged. Honourably would include purchase and ill-health,  although both might impact the Army’s desire to take him on as a Special Reservist. On the outbreak of war he signs up as a Special Reservist for at least 2 years – in the spring of 1916 the Military Services Act extended all enlistments to make them for the duration of the war. He receives a Special Reservist number 7547.

Sorry I can’t be more definate, but all four routes could see him promoted to Corporal and serving as a trainer in one of the Home Service only battalions of the Scottish Rifles.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

[michaela]

43 minutes ago, PRC said:

 

@Alan24 - Thank you very much for checking – I had my fingers crossed as that was the only thing that made sense.

 

For them to have recruited 50 in a month and then none at all for three months seemed a tad unlikely

(Either that or it was the other two that were wrong!)

 

@michaela

 

Still not quite a smoking gun, but I think it boils down to four scenarios.

• 1)     He enlists in May 1902 as 7547, does his 12 years, probably on a 3 and 9 split, and at the end opts for a further 4 years in the Reserves, retaining his regimental number. He joins Army Reserve D – see https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/enlisting-into-the-army/british-army-reserves-and-reservists/
• 2)     He enlists in May 1902 as 7547, does his 12 years, probably on a 3 and 9 split, and in the late spring of 1914 he walks away from the Army, time expired and under no legal obligation to report in the outbreak of war. However on general mobilisation he turns up anyway and by a bit of administrative sleight of hand is put back on the books under his old number rather than requiring him to sign a new term of enlistment.

The next couple are based on my study so far of men joining the Norfolk Regiment in August 1914 as Special Reservists, so a relatively small sample and I have no idea whether it applies to the Scottish Rifles. Some regiments chose to issue Special Reservists with service numbers drawn from the general Regular Army series, others gave then numbers from a parallel series with a prefix – usually 3/ but in the case of the Scottish Rifles this was possibly a prefix A/ or B/. Unfortunately prefixes are quite often the first things that gets dropped on things like MiCs.

 

In my experience with the Norfolks, the Special Reserve option was used as a way to sign up time-expired veterans who did want to have another 12 year commitment, and the status of the Short-Service enlistments that would become more commonplace in the following months was still being thrashed out. While the headline said a 6 year commitment, the form was a bit like the militia one in that a man could state how many years they were actually prepared to serve. In some cases the 6 was crossed through instead and replaced with a lower number. This allowed the regiments to build up cadres of time served men who may be were not up to physical standard for front line service or who were overage for field service but could provide training cadres for the rapidly expanding army. Such men weren't the only ones recruited as a Special Reservist but certainly with the Norfolks it is a recurring theme.

 

In the case of service number 7547 in the Scottish Rifles there is an A/7547 George Thomson and a B/7547 John Elvin \ Elven, (things are never simple, so there are MiCs for both spellings but the documents are cross referenced). While potentially that rules out Thomas Green as a Special Reservist I just don’t know enough about their numbering schema to say that with confidence. You really need a Scottish Rifles expert for that.

 

So that last two scenarios , (and there may be others), are

• 3)     He enlists in May 1902 with an unknown service number, does his 12 years, probably on a 3 and 9 split, and in the late spring of 1914 he walks away from the Army, time expired and under no legal obligation to report in the outbreak of war. On the outbreak of war he signs up as a Special Reservist for at least 2 years – in the spring of 1916 the Military Services Act extended all enlistments to make them for the duration of the war. He receives a Special Reservist number 7547.
• 4)     He enlists in May 1902 with an unknown service number, but does not complete his 12 years, being either honourably or dishonourably discharged. Honourably would include purchase and ill-health,  although both might impact the Army’s desire to take him on as a Special Reservist. On the outbreak of war he signs up as a Special Reservist for at least 2 years – in the spring of 1916 the Military Services Act extended all enlistments to make them for the duration of the war. He receives a Special Reservist number 7547.

Sorry I can’t be more definate, but all four routes could see him promoted to Corporal and serving as a trainer in one of the Home Service only battalions of the Scottish Rifles.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

Your work on this is terrific. I can’t thank you enough. Just a thought about that Absent Voters list, the address (according to burnleyinthegreatwar) states 60 Lyndhurst Rd. The birth certificate for son James is 60 Leyland Rd. I wonder if it has been recorded in error. I have posted on a fb group. Once again, I applaud you for your time.

[robbie56]

A few more photographs from the album belonging to my Gt Grandfather, 1st Cameronians (India), 7th Battalion Seaforths.

…..

[FROGSMILE]

5 hours ago, robbie56 said:

A few more photographs from the album belonging to my Gt Grandfather, 1st Cameronians (India), 7th Battalion Seaforths.

 

…..

Thank you so much for posting these photos robbie, they really are very important historically and it would be wonderful if you could get them scanned with a high dpi.  If you don’t have your own scanner your local public library will have one and I usually find the staff helpful if you need assistance.  Sending copies as digital files to the following institutions will preserve them in perpetuity for future generations and historians:

1.https://www.sllccameronians.co.uk
2.http://www.cameronians.org/sitemap/index.html

There is some urgency beginning to be felt I think because the WW2 generation are largely gone and that only leaves the much smaller cohort of post WW2 conscripts and even tinier numbers of former regulars of that regiment, all of whom well into their pensions now.

Turning to the photos themselves, although very interesting to see I suspect that the shots of iconic buildings in Lucknow are not especially rare, but the photos of the soldiers will I think be quite unique, especially the String Band of the Cameronian’s.  Around that time there was great competition between regimental bands, both on foreign service and home service (the latter a small band due to imposed establishment restrictions), to extend their musical range beyond pure instrumental military marching.  The string band is an example in case, and something not widely seen across the Infantry as a whole.  Some regiments developed a great reputation for their bands musical prowess and as a backdrop to that it should be kept in mind that the bands upkeep costs and many of its instruments were underpinned by the ‘band fund’ paid into as a mandatory levy placed on each individual officer via subscription, usually on his mess bill (the amount ascending according to rank).  The Adjutant, or 2i/c, was generally the Band President and watched over the band and it’s reputation on behalf of the commanding officer.

As regards D Company (notice the older abbreviation format of ‘Co’, the small number of officers and NCOs reveals it to relate to the old 8-company organisation (A to H).  The two officers are wearing black crepe armbands as per regulations for official mourning, which very probably relates to the passing of Queen Victoria I think.  Seated next to the officers, right as we look, the company colour sergeant can be seen with his special rifles pattern badge of crossed swords and crown over three stripes in the regimental colour scheme of black on a very dark green.  The long Lee Enfield can clearly be identified as the long arm with which they are equipped.  The colour sergeant appears to have the prize badge of sergeant of best shooting company on his left forearm.  The company’s own piper can be seen at far right with a small dog on his lap.  On ceremonial parades he usually had a small banner on the drones of his pipes that had been presented to him by the officer commanding the company.  One one side was a regimental emblem and on the other something personal to the officer who funded it.  In the lowermost photo the pipe-major can be in all his splendour and he wears a Douglas Tartan kilt as adopted by the regiment.

The final photo is to a degree the odd one out as it shows the NCOs of a Royal Garrison Artillery battery wearing the final pattern of undress frock from the late 1890s, before the introduction of khaki drab service dress superseded it for most purposes, although in places like India and Canada it was preserved as a smart form of dress for much longer.  It was dark blue with a red collar and both the framing to the collar and the Austrian knot cuff decoration were formed from golden yellow ‘round cord’.  Seated at centre and sitting adjacent to each other are the Battery Sergeant Major and Battery Quartermaster Sergeant, whose badges of rank were identical and took the form of crown, over gun, over three stripes.  They are very likely to be from a Mountain Battery sharing the same station (‘cantonment’).  I think that the frock is the artillery’s India pattern (or foreign service) type, as I’ve never yet seen any images of it worn on the home establishment.

 

Edited 12 March by FROGSMILE

[robbie56]

Thanks Frogsmile,

                              I did consider sending a few of the photographs to one of the sites you mention. Recently I came across another album from the same period but I can’t put my hands on it at the moment, somewhere under a pile of “stuff”. If I remember the photographs were of uniformed soldiers. 
 

My Gt Grandfather died of wounds received on the assault of the Hohenzollern Redoubt, Sept 1915. I know that he went to India when he was nineteen, 1892. He returned home to marry and thereafter returned to India. My Grandmother was born 1905 in India. I believe he returned to U.K. around 1908/9. Is it likely he spent approximately fifteen years in India  minus the trip home ? I think that unlikely as there may have been a couple of returns of the battalion to the U.K. during that period and then back to India ? I understand the 2nd battalion was in South Africa whilst the 1st was in India. Maybe the 1st had to return for home service whilst the 2nd active ?
 

However it would appear that many men spent more time abroad than at home during their relatively active adult years. To me that is significant. Indeed I may have a few cousins in Pakistan today !
 

I’ll have a look for the second album,

Regards,

R

ps - The Colour Sergeant you refer to is sitting next to my Gt Grandfather.

Edited 12 March by robbie56
Update

[FROGSMILE]

36 minutes ago, robbie56 said:

Thanks Frogsmile,

                              I did consider sending a few of the photographs to one of the sites you mention. Recently I came across another album from the same period but I can’t put my hands on it at the moment, somewhere under a pile of “stuff”. If I remember the photographs were of uniformed soldiers. 
 

My Gt Grandfather died of wounds received on the assault of the Hohenzollern Redoubt, Sept 1915. I know that he went to India when he was nineteen, 1892. He returned home to marry and thereafter returned to India. My Grandmother was born 1905 in India. I believe he returned to U.K. around 1908/9. Is it likely he spent approximately fifteen years in India  minus the trip home ? I think that unlikely as there may have been a couple of returns of the battalion to the U.K. during that period and then back to India ? I understand the 2nd battalion was in South Africa whilst the 1st was in India. Maybe the 1st had to return for home service whilst the 2nd active ?
 

However it would appear that many men spent more time abroad than at home during their relatively active adult years. To me that is significant. Indeed I may have a few cousins in Pakistan today !
 

I’ll have a look for the second album,

Regards,

R

I realise that the albums are in good hands Robbie but they might not be in the future as others might not share your interest after you’re gone and scanning will preserve copies.

You have posted the photo of D Company and details of your gt grandfather’s WW1 service previously and I commented then on how wonderful the images are: https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/263922-scottish-rifles-uniform/

As regards your gt grandfather’s service in India it was common for battalion’s to spend as long as 20-years there before swapping with their partner battalion on home service.  During the interim they each year, during the trooping season (best weather for travel by ship), received drafts of replacements from the depot, and the other battalion, to replace time-expired men returning home to be de-kitted and discharged to civilian life.  It’s probable that during a full career your grandfather would have served with both battalion’s.

1st Battalion the Cameronian’s (Scottish Rifles).

1894India 

 <1897>Rhaniket 

 <1899>Lucknow 

 <1904>Nowshera 

 <1909>Cawnpore 

 1909South Africa 

 1912Scotland: Glasgow 

 1914.08France and FlandersLofC, BEF

 1914.10France and Flanders6 Div

 1915.05France and Flanders27 Div

 1915.08France and Flanders2 Div

 1915.11France and Flanders33 Div

 1919Ireland: Curragh

2nd Battalion the Cameronian’s (Scottish Rifles).

 <1892Jubbulpore 

 1895England

 <1897>Parkhurst 

 <1899>Gibraltar 

 1899.10South Africa4 Inf Bde

 1902South Africa

 1907England: Aldershot 

 1910Malta 

 1914.11France and Flanders8 Div

 1918.02France and Flanders20 Div

 1919Mesopotamia 

 1922.01India: Quetta 

 1923Kurdistan

 <1924.01>Baluchistan/Waziristan

Edited 12 March by FROGSMILE

[robbie56]

Thanks.

I had 1892 to India but seems to have been 1894.

Other photographs I have are annotated with the locations mentioned from 1894 to 1909. That’s 15 years ! (Believe it or not but curry has been a big favourite in the family through all generations ! Connected generations !)

I know he wasn’t in South Africa however I have a date for him in Glasgow 1912 when he left after 21 years. If the 1st went direct to South Africa 1909 he may have gone directly to Glasgow that same year, 1909, in preparation to leave the Army.

A shock to the system, India to Glasgow ! 

I take your point regarding the photographs. The originals show their age but the definition is of high quality.

[FROGSMILE]

49 minutes ago, robbie56 said:

Thanks.

I had 1892 to India but seems to have been 1894.

Other photographs I have are annotated with the locations mentioned from 1894 to 1909. That’s 15 years ! (Believe it or not but curry has been a big favourite in the family through all generations ! Connected generations !)

I know he wasn’t in South Africa however I have a date for him in Glasgow 1912 when he left after 21 years. If the 1st went direct to South Africa 1909 he may have gone directly to Glasgow that same year, 1909, in preparation to leave the Army.

A shock to the system, India to Glasgow ! 

I take your point regarding the photographs. The originals show their age but the definition is of high quality.

The 2nd Battalion were still in India in 1892 so perhaps that’s where you got that date from.  15-years in India was not at all uncommon and some battalions were there for over twenty.  There was a change around programme but of course it became interrupted by events on the ground, especially the various insurrections on the North West Frontier that then required troops to sort out and that led to delays and changes in schedules.

His going straight to the depot in 1909, when it was so close to his time expired date, is entirely probable.

The resolution of the old glass plate process was sublime, but they will deteriorate over time as some already are, so the sooner you can digitise (scan) them, the better.  They really are quite rare and if you look at the two linked websites you will see that they have no regimental images from that late 1890s, early 1900s period. You have fate in your hands Robbie.

Edited 12 March by FROGSMILE

[robbie56]

Thanks Again,

I’ll make contact and send photographs in present form. If they subsequently want higher definition I’ll manage that. 
 

Fifteen years a least in India, explains a lot,

Regards,

R

[FROGSMILE]

28 minutes ago, robbie56 said:

Thanks Again,

I’ll make contact and send photographs in present form. If they subsequently want higher definition I’ll manage that. 
 

Fifteen years a least in India, explains a lot,

Regards,

R

The present form is just a mobile phone photo Robbie and so without the ‘resolution’ quality of the originals that you have pointed out.  A scan will replicate the quality of the originals, but in digital format.  As a researcher of uniforms I plead with you [please] to scan them, because in the future researchers will be reliant on the high dpi of a scan to make out the details.  That is what they are dependent upon.

Thank you again for posting the images in both threads.

Best wishes,

FS

Edited 12 March by FROGSMILE

[robbie56]

I’ll follow through. I’m trying to find the second album,

I’ll have to ask the wife to light a candle !

[FROGSMILE]

11 minutes ago, robbie56 said:

I’ll follow through. I’m trying to find the second album,

I’ll have to ask the wife to light a candle !

It’s interesting that the 1st Battalion completely missed the 2nd Boer War due to their being in India, I’m not sure if that applied to all of the battalion’s garrisoned there, or just some of them. 

[Muerrisch]

Not my area at all, but the pipe-major's arm badge over 4 chevrons may be a very early example of a special regimental [and non-regulation] supplementary such badge. They eventually became rather widespread.

However, the Jocks are a no-go subject for this Sassenach, so I open the matter for informed comment please.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Muerrisch said:

Not my area at all, but the pipe-major's arm badge over 4 chevrons may be a very early example of a special regimental [and non-regulation] supplementary such badge. They eventually became rather widespread.

However, the Jocks are a no-go subject for this Sassenach, so I open the matter for informed comment please.

It seems likely that only the 2nd Battalion (late 90th) favoured it as it doesn’t feature in this poster of the home service battalion and I cannot see it in any other images of the Pipe Major either.

[Muerrisch]

Thank you. I will have a look at the Denis Edwards book ............ upstairs in a cold study.

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

Thank you. I will have a look at the Denis Edwards book ............ upstairs in a cold study.

It does seem quite unusual, given the late 1890s date, and looks about the same size and design as a blazer badge but well before such things existed. 

Edited 14 March by FROGSMILE

[gordon92]

15 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

Not my area at all, but the pipe-major's arm badge over 4 chevrons may be a very early example of a special regimental [and non-regulation] supplementary such badge. They eventually became rather widespread.

However, the Jocks are a no-go subject for this Sassenach, so I open the matter for informed comment please.

The Pipe Major photo posted by robbie56 appears to be that of PM William Stuart c1905.

This image shows the PM of 2nd Bn Scottish Rifles in 1935 with a badge above the four chevrons.

There also appears to be a badge on this PM of the 1st Cameronians, but I have no date for the photo.

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, gordon92 said:

The Pipe Major photo posted by robbie56 appears to be that of PM William Stuart c1905.

This image shows the PM of 2nd Bn Scottish Rifles in 1935 with a badge above the four chevrons.

There also appears to be a badge on this PM of the 1st Cameronians, but I have no date for the photo.

Thanks Mike that’s very timely and I especially like the photo of PM Stuart where again the regimental badge is positioned just above the four-bar inverted stripes.  I agree that there’s a badge in the same position above rank stripes of the other PM but it looks like something much smaller than the regimental badge.  I suspect that rather like the HLI, whose depot they shared, the two regular battalions did subtly different things as a nod to their differing lineages. 

Edited 14 March by FROGSMILE

[gordon92]

2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Thanks Mike that’s very timely and I especially like the photo of PM Stuart where again the regimental badge is positioned just above the four-bar inverted stripes.  I agree that there’s a badge in the same position above red stripes of the other PM but it looks like something much smaller than the regimental badge.  I suspect that rather like the HLI, whose depot they shared, the two regular battalions did subtly different things as a nod to their differing lineages. 

Indeed. The former 90th Perthshire Light Infantry never had a pipe band. When they became the 2nd Scottish Rifles and formed a pipes and drums, they were trained by the 1st Seaforth (see David Murray's Music of the Scottish Regiments). So as not to be confused with the 1st Cameronians, the 2nd SR devised a sporran for the pipers that was a different design. There was a lot of that going around with many of the strange marriages of 1881.

[FROGSMILE]

10 minutes ago, gordon92 said:

Indeed. The former 90th Perthshire Light Infantry never had a pipe band. When they became the 2nd Scottish Rifles and formed a pipes and drums, they were trained by the 1st Seaforth (see David Murray's Music of the Scottish Regiments). So as not to be confused with the 1st Cameronians, the 2nd SR devised a sporran for the pipers that was a different design. There was a lot of that going around with many of the strange marriages of 1881.

Yes I think you’ll find the sporrans and variations have been discussed in Cameronian’s themed threads here before, so we’re treading over old ground.

Edited 14 March by FROGSMILE

[robbie56]

Gordon 92,

Your photograph of PM William Stuart c1905 appears to be the same photograph I posted with background, the wall and grass, in place. Any idea where the photograph was taken ?

R