Passchendaele weekend

[Gareth Davies]

20 minutes ago, stiletto_33853 said:

Hi Gareth,

 

The full article states "Tony Hayes, the chief executive of the Veteran's Association UK described the comments as disgusting". Mr. Hayes said: "The French and Germans are using it as leverage against Britain."

 

Ta.

[Stoppage Drill]

"Tony Hayes, Chief Exec of Veterans Association UK . . . . " . . . then you have to pay to read further.

[phil andrade]

6 minutes ago, AmericanTommy said:

I was one of the reenactors present in Zonnebeke and Ypres over the weekend. Was a very moving experience. If you saw some Cameronians walking about it was a group of us down from Glasgow. On the 31st we got into modern clothes and moved about the salient. I gave a tour to some reenactors following the 15th Division's assault on Frezenberg. Was a bit sad seeing no attention paid on the actual day of the assault at many of the famous sites. Also somewhat irked at the large focus on the word "Passchendaele". Seems no one will talk of Broodseinde, Pilckem, or the other major events which made up the overall Third Battle of Ypres. 

 

 

 

Excellent photo, thanks.

 

You mention excessive focus on the name Passchendaele.

 

What's in a name ?

 

But I suppose that, in this case, the name is everything.  Has there ever been an event in military history so defined by it ?

 

Phil

[Gareth Davies]

3 minutes ago, phil andrade said:

 

Excellent photo, thanks.

 

You mention excessive focus on the name Passchendaele.

 

What's in a name ?

 

But I suppose that, in this case, the name is everything.  Has there ever been an event in military history so defined by it ?

 

Phil

 

Here's Gary Sheffield's thoughts on that question.

 

http://www.historytoday.com/gary-sheffield/passchendaele-what’s-name

[stiletto_33853]

ok full article

[phil andrade]

Thanks for posting the article, Andy.

 

Did you note that persistent and exasperating error :  325,000 deaths ?

 

Is it too much to ask that there be differentiation between deaths and total casualties ?

 

Millions of people on the Continent of Europe cherish a profound and heartfelt belief that the EU has saved Europe - and, perhaps by extension, the world - from another gigantic war.

 

I like Tim Collins's comments, but I'm dismayed at the way our neighbours in Europe are traduced for saying what they feel.

 

Phil

[stiletto_33853]

Phil,

 

Yes noted the error. Sorry I do not sign up to the notion that the EU has saved Europe from another gigantic war, was it not the EU that said the EU will stretch to the Urals and has caused quite a few problems in the Ukraine.

 

Agreed re our neighbours being traduced, however is there an agenda there??

 

Andy

[Stoppage Drill]

3 minutes ago, phil andrade said:

 

 

I like Tim Collins's comments, but I'm dismayed at the way our neighbours in Europe are traduced for saying what they feel.

 

Phil

 

One should tailor one's remarks to the occasion. Simple good manners. I assume that those who feel the need to abuse the convention are boorish or rattled. Probably both.

 

I was surprised that the British National Anthem was played before the Belgian one on several occasions. The location - Belgium - and the fact that Belgian King outranked anybody else present indicated to me that La Brabançonne should have taken precedence.

 

[sassenach]

Agree on both counts, SD

[Phil Wood]

2 hours ago, Stoppage Drill said:

I was surprised that the British National Anthem was played before the Belgian one on several occasions. The location - Belgium - and the fact that Belgian King outranked anybody else present indicated to me that La Brabançonne should have taken precedence.

 

 

What is precedence on such occasions? I would have thought it would be to get the minor tunes out of the way before playing the most important one.

 

[ianw]

I was at the Menin Gate on Sunday night and around Ypres generally and felt welcomed and the warmth of being among friends . A particularly welcoming group were the Belgian officers assisting their King at the LPC - a great bunch of guys. Personally I quite understand why the French and Germans proudly point to the E.U making it less likely that they will ever end up in conflict. I find the DT comments rather boorish  - but I suppose that reactions to it are likely to be informed by one's position on whichever side of the UK's Great Divide you find yourself.

 

[phil andrade]

2 hours ago, stiletto_33853 said:

Phil,

 

Yes noted the error. Sorry I do not sign up to the notion that the EU has saved Europe from another gigantic war, was it not the EU that said the EU will stretch to the Urals and has caused quite a few problems in the Ukraine.

 

Agreed re our neighbours being traduced, however is there an agenda there??

 

Andy

 

Make no mistake, I am tremendously steeped in love of Commonwealth, and there is nowhere on earth more conducive to experiencing that emotion than the Ypres battlefields.

 

So I subscribe fully to the notion that the commemoration should nurture that uniquely British pride.

 

That said, it makes me ashamed when I see thoroughly decent and heartfelt  " European " convictions sneered at.

 

Perhaps I'm being naive, and have failed to see an agenda.

 

I'm wrong about a lot of things !

 

Phil

 

 

[AOK4]

1 hour ago, Phil Wood said:

 

What is precedence on such occasions? I would have thought it would be to get the minor tunes out of the way before playing the most important one.

 

 

Interesting question to which I couldn't find an answer immediately. It may have to do with the fact that the ceremony was on a British cemetery. I read in belgian newspapers that it was William and Kate who had invited the Belgian king to the Last Post ceremony (which seems very odd as the ceremony is a local (Belgian) affair in origin, but then again at a British memorial).

Please note also that in Europe we would always also play the European hymn on official ceremonies (as the last one if I remember correctly). This may also be an indication for our British forum pals that we on the European mainland look differently towards the European Union (we may not always like it politically, but we have come to accept it as some kind of a uniting element, probably a bit similar to the Commonwealth feeling).

 

Jan

PS: I understand this thread is going a bit off-topic, but yet it may be interesting for understanding the different feelings at commemorations of WWI.

[trajan]

On 8/1/2017 at 16:52, ianw said:

Yours truly was in Ypres on Sunday night courtesy of my Great Uncle on the Menin Gate. I will treasure my "Descendant" name tag.

 

Lovely account - thank you!

[squirrel]

2 hours ago, Phil Wood said:

 

What is precedence on such occasions? I would have thought it would be to get the minor tunes out of the way before playing the most important one.

 

A shortened version of the National Anthem is played for members of the Royal family when they arrive at such ceremonies. Duke & Duchess of Cambridge arrived before the King of the Belgians hence the British Anthem was played first. IIRC at the end of the proceedings the British National Anthem was played before the Belgian which is correct. 

[ianw]

Yes, William and Kate did arrive first. But also was the King of Belgium technically a guest and visitor to British soil under the Menin Gate?

 

 

[ianw]

1 hour ago, AOK4 said:

 

 This may also be an indication for our British forum pals that we on the European mainland look differently towards the European Union (we may not always like it politically, but we have come to accept it as some kind of a uniting element, probably a bit similar to the Commonwealth feeling).

 

 

 

Many British feel the same about the E.U which explains the agony that is being experienced by many at the moment

[sassenach]

The King of Belgium is the King of the Belgians.

1 minute ago, ianw said:

 

Many British feel the same about the E.U which explains the agony that is being experienced by many at the moment

Many, certainly, but a minority.

[nigelcave]

7 hours ago, Hyacinth1326 said:

Michael Stedman reported the Miraumont Quarries body burning in his book on Fricourt-Mametz (under the Fricourt German Cemetery section) but I am certain it is covered in more detail in another book in the series.  

It is quite clear where the German cemetery extension at Miraumont was - it is still a pasture field and lies below the communal cemetery. There are several war time photographs of it, including two visits by the King of Wurttemberg.

 

There were probably anything up to 5,000 Germans buried here, along with a large number of British. Those British buried in the original (and current) cemetery have been left there - or at least a number of them have. The Germans in the churchyard are all gone. Jack Sheldon, in his B. Europe book on Beaumont Hamel, makes this comment:

 

'There is no trace of the German memorials or any of the casualties who were buried here - anywhere. ... The only certainty is that they had known graves and now they do not.

 

There are rumours about their fate and I was certainly told by one (very) long term local resident that the German bodies were removed and burnt. 

[Black Maria]

15 minutes ago, sassenach said:

 

Many, certainly, but a minority.

Yes indeed .

 

[AOK4]

32 minutes ago, ianw said:

Yes, William and Kate did arrive first. But also was the King of Belgium technically a guest and visitor to British soil under the Menin Gate?

 

 

 

That is NOT British soil. It is technically Belgian (the Belgian state expropriated it and has given the use of it to the IWGC, now CWGC as long as the plot is used as memorial/cemetery, once the cemetery/memorial would no longer be there, the plot reverts to the Belgian state as was the case with the German cemeteries when they were concentrated).

 

Jan

[squirrel]

The playing of National Anthems at the end of events is covered by precedence. The senior one for the occasion having the precedence of being played last.

[Phil Wood]

5 minutes ago, squirrel said:

The playing of National Anthems at the end of events is covered by precedence. The senior one for the occasion having the precedence of being played last.

 

Thank you, as I suspected.

[Lanayca]

8 hours ago, AmericanTommy said:

I was one of the reenactors present in Zonnebeke and Ypres over the weekend. Was a very moving experience. If you saw some Cameronians walking about it was a group of us down from Glasgow. On the 31st we got into modern clothes and moved about the salient. I gave a tour to some reenactors following the 15th Division's assault on Frezenberg. Was a bit sad seeing no attention paid on the actual day of the assault at many of the famous sites. Also somewhat irked at the large focus on the word "Passchendaele". Seems no one will talk of Broodseinde, Pilckem, or the other major events which made up the overall Third Battle of Ypres. 

 

 

Will you be going back for the Scottish weekend later in August? I was also there this weekend with the 18 pounder but won't get back for the Scottish event . My grandfather was with the 13th Royal Scots at Frezenberg

[gillchadwick]

My first feeling on arriving at Tyne Cot on July 31st was one of disappointment, it was no longer a revered and sombre  cemetery but had become a stage.The audience jostled about looking for the best vantage point or bagging a seat.

However during the two hour wait for the 'players' to take up their positions,relatives spoke  to one another of their Soldier and the cemetery was no longer a sea of faceless names on headstones but became alive with families stories of the relative that they had come to honor and respect  still remembered 100 years later.

I was privileged to attend and honor the memory of my Dad's eldest brother who had had lost his life on that day 100 years ago.