Passchendaele weekend

[AOK4]

1 hour ago, Black Maria said:

The Belgian historian made the comment about the lack of German presence in the landscape because there are so few German cemeteries in Flanders .

But maybe if the Germans hadn't of invaded her country again twenty odd years later their presence would be a lot greater than it is today.

 

 

 

Yet there are plenty of German bunkers left, so they have definitely left their presence in the landscape. And there are still many traces of the cemeteries as well (for whom is interested: a bit of patience, there's some English-language books in the pipeline).

[Black Maria]

4 minutes ago, AOK4 said:

 

Yet there are plenty of German bunkers left, so they have definitely left their presence in the landscape. And there are still many traces of the cemeteries as well (for whom is interested: a bit of patience, there's some English-language books in the pipeline).

Yes, that's true .

[Stoppage Drill]

Post-war the French and Belgian governments were reluctant to give up too much land for German cemeteries.

Most German cemeteries have multiple and mass graves which occupy much less space than individual graves.

 

The Kameradengrab (mass grave) at Langemarck Altenfriedhof alone contains, in quite a small area, twice as many dead as are buried at Tyne Cot.

Edited 1 August , 2017 by Stoppage Drill

[Steven Broomfield]

18 minutes ago, Stoppage Drill said:

Post-war the French and Belgian governments were reluctant to give up too much land for German cemeteries.

 

 

Understandably, I'd say.

 

As I am in the unfortunate position of having to show my face in the office, I was unable to watch any of yesterday's service other than a snippet on the BBC News at 10.00 p.m. What I did see, I thoroughly liked - it struck the right tone of respectful remembrance.

 

I was, however, given the impression that the BBC was implying that Noel Chavasse was buried at Tyne Cot. Was this evident in the day, or just the way it was truncated for a news bulletin?

[AOK4]

41 minutes ago, Stoppage Drill said:

Post-war the French and Belgian governments were reluctant to give up too much land for German cemeteries.

Most German cemeteries have multiple and mass graves which occupy much less space than individual graves.

 

The Kameradengrab (mass grave) at Langemarck Altenfriedhof alone contains, in quite a small area, twice as many dead as are buried at Tyne Cot.

 

It's more complex than that. In France: French and German war graves were given equal treatment (and often made at the same time after the war by the French government, hence a lot of the neighbouring cemeteries, it is also the French that introduced (after the war) the mass graves for the unknowns). In Belgium as from 1925 on all war graves were treated equally and land was expropriated by the Belgian state and then handed over the whichever graves commission to be used as a graveyard. However the Germans were soon asked to reduce the number of cemeteries.

 

As there were new negotiations with the Germans after WW2 (the inter-war German war graves service having been dissolved), one of the conditions was that the Germans reduced the number of cemeteries considerably, hence the solution with the large mass grave in Langemark  (for those who were either unidentified or individually unidentifiable) and the concentration cemeteries of Langemark, Vladslo and Menen. Note however that the soldiers are mostly buried individually! They just put more names on one stone.

 

 

[phil andrade]

In commentary I've seen written on the website of the In Flanders Fields museum, there's a statement that, while about 130,000 German soldiers from the Great War are buried in military cemeteries in Flanders ( which I assume means Belgium ), the unrecovered dead were so numerous as to account for a total of 220,000 German dead in Belgium 1914-18.

 

 Does the  implication that ninety thousand of their  Great War dead  in Belgium remain unrecovered suggest that the Germans encountered significant obstruction in their endeavour to inter their soldiers ?

 

Phil

[PhilB]

I assume you mean "reinter their soldiers", Phil.

[phil andrade]

29 minutes ago, PhilB said:

I assume you mean "reinter their soldiers", Phil.

 

Yes, in many cases I suppose that they had buried their dead, and that the cemeteries were destroyed.

 

Of course, many of the bodies would have been lost anyway, just as so many of their British counterparts had been.

 

Pulverising and prolonged  fighting had smashed up the ground and the bodies within.

 

But, using rather simple arithmetic , it seems that one quarter of all the British Empire's dead on the Western Front were lost on the battlefields.  Half were found and identified, one quarter were recovered but were unidentifiable, and the remainder have been " lost".  If the figures I cited for Germany are correct, then forty per cent of all the dead Germans in Belgium have been similarly lost, which is a big difference and requires explanation .

 

Phil

[AOK4]

33 minutes ago, phil andrade said:

In commentary I've seen written on the website of the In Flanders Fields museum, there's a statement that, while about 130,000 German soldiers from the Great War are buried in military cemeteries in Flanders ( which I assume means Belgium ), the unrecovered dead were so numerous as to account for a total of 220,000 German dead in Belgium 1914-18.

 

 Does the  implication that ninety thousand of their  Great War dead  in Belgium remain unrecovered suggest that the Germans encountered significant obstruction in their endeavour to inter their soldiers ?

 

Phil

 

The official number in 1957 (after concentration) was 134,481 German soldiers in Belgium. One also has to consider that way over 10,000 were buried just across the border in Northern France (mostly from First and Third Ypres). I would say that also many hundreds were repatriated either during or after the war.

[ianw]

Yours truly was in Ypres on Sunday night courtesy of my Great Uncle on the Menin Gate. I will treasure my "Descendant" name tag. The first benefit was special parking near St Georges and then a good cup of tea chatting with the other descendants in the sunshine.  I met up with a lovely former HMS Belfast man (1947) and his daughter. He was a real character and eventually charmed Kate & William at the reception after the LPC.  I tried the same with Teresa May but was not very successful. Can she mind read I wonder?

 

We formed up at "19.34 precisely" for the march/totter/stagger down to the Menin Gate  - the various N.C.Os looked down in despair at the mob that they were charged with getting there! We did get a bit behind the band as the cobbles played havoc with the wheelchairs , powered chairs and a few ankles , but we did it!

 

The ceremony itself was not over-embellished thank goodness but I have heard better renditions - I think one of the buglers may have been nervous. At the end we walked back to a little reception in the depths of the Cloth Hall, passing on the way Mrs May who was pressing the flesh of the lined up crowds.  Another Great Uncle's Mons Trio I was wearing got the attention of an ADC at the reception and Mrs May duly appeared for a quick chat.  As I said , my HMS Belfast man got Kate and his daughter was able to use my "fact" about the Middleton's - 25 of them on the Menin Gate!  The Chairman of the LPA got an hon. O.B.E (other buglers efforts?) from William. As an award for 90 years of LPA service, richly deserved.

 

Then off we went to nice seats for the show. This was amusing as we were not well ushered and set off at a gallop into the better seats up by the Royals where we should not have been with "only" our red "Descendants" badges. Proper important folk had gold badges and mooched up a bit later as is their wont only to not have enough seats . By this time the descendants were not moveable and P.R folk with phones clamped to their ears were visibly very unhappy. I had a bunch of DUP M.Ps immediately my right who were importantly texting through a lot of a the show. I laughed when I saw the Chief of the General Staff having to look for a spare seat - but to his credit he did this with a smile and enjoyed the show.

 

The performance itself was pretty good in my opinion. Particularly the projections onto the Cloth Hall which worked really well I think.  I felt very guilty when the rain fell down the CH as we were blessed with a perfect summer evening. So at the end I waltzed off into the night to meet up with my daughter for a delicious late burger and fries which made this common man very happy. As usual with Ypres visits , a great time was had but I contrasted my experience with that of Great Uncle Herbert in his trench . He would have been amazed by what was going on 100 years on.

 

Breathing the exhaled breath of the great and the good is always a bit trying so I didn't do Tyne Cot the next day having quieter personal visits to do.

[steandpaula]

1 hour ago, Steven Broomfield said:

 

Understandably, I'd say.

 

As I am in the unfortunate position of having to show my face in the office, I was unable to watch any of yesterday's service other than a snippet on the BBC News at 10.00 p.m. What I did see, I thoroughly liked - it struck the right tone of respectful remembrance.

 

I was, however, given the impression that the BBC was implying that Noel Chavasse was buried at Tyne Cot. Was this evident in the day, or just the way it was truncated for a news bulletin?

Hi Steven, yes I felt they kind of led you to believe Chavasse was in Tyne Cot also, but on the whole not a bad couple of days broadcasting. Did anyone catch Charlie Stains, I think his name is, on the morning BBC news saying we are going to France for the ceremonies ?

[keithfazzani]

On 30/07/2017 at 20:53, nigelcave said:

I was especially pleased to hear them sing the hymn 'O Valiant Hearts'. The clerical PC brigade got at this some years ago - as far back as thirty years ago.

 

O Valiant Hearts is sung regularly at Buffs and RWK annual memorial services. Was  sung at our commemoration service in 2014 at L'Hautrage when the bandmaster included both the British and German Last Post in the final verse. Not a dry eye - including mine - which made completeting the Service somewhat of a challenge.

 

Keith Fazzani - Regimental Chaplain; Queen's Own Buffs Regimental Association

[Phil Wood]

1 hour ago, steandpaula said:

Hi Steven, yes I felt they kind of led you to believe Chavasse was in Tyne Cot also, but on the whole not a bad couple of days broadcasting. Did anyone catch Charlie Stains, I think his name is, on the morning BBC news saying we are going to France for the ceremonies ?

 

Charlie Stayt - I suspect that a few of them at Tyne Cot also thought they were in France. The whole event was a triumph of style over substance - nice ceremonies and show, dodgy history (notwithstanding the presence of Richard van Emden and Peter Barton). When I heard the opening bars of Oh What a Lovely War my heart sank. And when a 'historian' told us about the first use of the new bite and hold tactic in September . . . 

 

That said I am sure it will persuade thousands more to travel to the area and visit relatives graves and memorials than any accurate history ever would.

 

 

[pioneecorps]

Although I enjoyed watching Passechendaele, it was very moving listening to the Veterans talk of their experiences, but I couldn't help thinking on hearing Harry Patch of his saying:

 

I felt then, as I feel now, that the politicians who took us to war should have been given the guns and told to settle their differences themselves, instead of organising  nothing better than legalised mass murder.

 

Gerwyn

 

[BIFFO]

I thought that both the ceremonies  were deeply moving.

I felt that the Ypres event struck just the right balance. I think a trick was missed, at the end of ieper ceremony when the soldiers marched through Menin Gate,you could hear their footsteps,if they turned the gates lights of would have sounded like troops marching to the front and never coming back

 

[Ian Riley]

3 hours ago, steandpaula said:

Hi Steven, yes I felt they kind of led you to believe Chavasse was in Tyne Cot also, but on the whole not a bad couple of days broadcasting. Did anyone catch Charlie Stains, I think his name is, on the morning BBC news saying we are going to France for the ceremonies ?

Ste,

Spending today and tomorrow walking the ground of the 1/5 SLR up to the Black Line, discussing the Rev Harry Maddox's letter to Bishop Chavasse (I think Maddox was attached to 1/5 SLR)

 

Ian

[ianw]

55 minutes ago, BIFFO said:

I thought that both the ceremonies  were deeply moving.

I felt that the Ypres event struck just the right balance. I think a trick was missed, at the end of ieper ceremony when the soldiers marched through Menin Gate,you could hear their footsteps,if they turned the gates lights of would have sounded like troops marching to the front and never coming back

 

Yes, I agree.  I think it must have been in 1991 when well after the end of the LP Ceremony, dusk was falling and I had wandered back to the Gate - as you do. In the gloamin on the far side of the Gate, a group of Tommies in full kit and uniform formed up , equipment was adjusted, the men inspected by the officer and without further ceremony - or indeed any ceremony at all - they marched away up the Menin Road and round the bend and out of sight.  A few dozen people had gathered and witnessed one of the most extraordinary sights I have seen in Ypres.

[Hyacinth1326]

'a group of Tommies in full kit and uniform formed up , equipment was adjusted, the men inspected by the officer and without further ceremony - or indeed any ceremony at all - they marched away up the Menin Road' 

 

Spine tingling.

 

Last evening some old friends of mine had a drink and a sing song in a well known Ypres hostelry.  They met up with some fellows in WWI uniform.  Apparently they decided to show their respects at midnight at one of the local cemeteries (as some of us do).  Lined up, heads bowed.  A short prayer, a few tears, followed by a pull on the whisky flask.  Then back to the Grand Place.

I so wish I could have been with them.

 

I too thought that sequence at the end of Sunday's commemoration event when the present day soldiers marched past the Cloth Hall towards the Menin Gate with the huge yet ephemeral shadows of the Tommies playing on the stones above them, was profoundly moving.

Edited 1 August , 2017 by Hyacinth1326
someting missed

[Hyacinth1326]

6 hours ago, phil andrade said:

If the figures I cited for Germany are correct, then forty per cent of all the dead Germans in Belgium have been similarly lost, which is a big difference and requires explanation .

 

 

It is to be hoped there were no Miraumont Quarry type incidents in Flanders but feelings doubtless ran as high in Belgium as they did in France.

[steandpaula]

3 hours ago, Ian Riley said:

Ste,

Spending today and tomorrow walking the ground of the 1/5 SLR up to the Black Line, discussing the Rev Harry Maddox's letter to Bishop Chavasse (I think Maddox was attached to 1/5 SLR)

 

Ian

Hi Ian, have a great time, looks like perfect weather for it. We are over 16th September for a week so will be around Hill 37/ Gallipoli Copse area for a day or two(20th/21st), really looking forward to it.

Ste M

[gillchadwick]

On 7/29/2017 at 23:37, bruce said:

Are any Pals going to be there?

If so, I will be on the field at Zonnebeke chateau on both days, so please come and say hello!

 

bruce

I have just read your post on my return home!sorry to have missed you.

[Ian Riley]

2 hours ago, Hyacinth1326 said:

'a group of Tommies in full kit and uniform formed up , equipment was adjusted, the men inspected by the officer and without further ceremony - or indeed any ceremony at all - they marched away up the Menin Road' 

 

Spine tingling.

 

Last evening some old friends of mine had a drink and a sing song in a well known Ypres hostelry.  They met up with some fellows in WWI uniform.  Apparently they decided to show their respects at midnight at one of the local cemeteries (as some of us do).  Lined up, heads bowed.  A short prayer, a few tears, followed by a pull on the whisky flask.  Then back to the Grand Place.

I so wish I could have been with them.

 

I too thought that sequence at the end of Sunday's commemoration event when the present day soldiers marched past the Cloth Hall towards the Menin Gate with the huge yet ephemeral shadows of the Tommies playing on the stones above them, was profoundly moving.

Agreed .Nice post and nice gestures. Thanks for this.  "Grand Place" in Ieper?  - "Grote Markt" might be better today but possibly in 1914, French prevailed over Dutch!

[phil andrade]

2 hours ago, Hyacinth1326 said:

 

 

It is to be hoped there were no Miraumont Quarry type incidents in Flanders but feelings doubtless ran as high in Belgium as they did in France.

 

To my embarrassment, I do not know about the Miraumont Quarry incident.

 

Please enlighten me.

 

Phil

[Don Regiano]

10 hours ago, Steven Broomfield said:

 

 

I was, however, given the impression that the BBC was implying that Noel Chavasse was buried at Tyne Cot.

 

Yes, but the interview was held at Brandhoek New Military Cemetery - or, should I say, with it in the background.  However, unless the viewer recognised this, the impression would be as you suggest.  A relative of mine is buried in the next row to Noel Chavasse at Brandhoek.

[KGB]

I was the one who got so sunburned he looked like a tomato. Or lobster.