Passchendaele weekend

[stiletto_33853]

Well that did not take long now did it!!

 

Today's Daily Telegraph, page 4 "French and Germans used Paschendaele to Promote EU" British veterans group accuse countries of disgusting attempts to politicise battle centenary.

 

Oops

 

Andy

[phil andrade]

Well, if the Franco German political class ( Mitterand and Kohl at the time ) used Verdun to promote the EU - remember them holding hands at Douamont ? - then it's hardly a bombshell if they endeavour the same effect at Passchendaele.

 

I suppose the big difference is that, for all the Franco Belgian involvement at Ypres 1914-18, Passchendaele is very much a British Commonwealth fixture, although not as exclusively as Verdun is a French one.

 

Brexit has been a kind of Ghost at the Feast in these commemorations.  I felt the chill of that ghost while watching the new Dunkirk film, too.

 

Phil

[Stoppage Drill]

The Belgian lady professor who joined the TV discussion with van Emden, Desert Island Kirstie and t'other fella made several veiled remarks which - to my delicate and sensitive ears - had inappropriate allusions.

[Hyacinth1326]

10 hours ago, phil andrade said:

To my embarrassment, I do not know about the Miraumont Quarry incident.

 

Please enlighten me.

 

Phil

Well It is alleged in a couple of the Battleground Europe books that the returning French civilians systematically dis-interred and burned German bodies in Miraumont Quarry in the Somme sector in the 1920s.  I first heard the story back in 1993 but found it difficult to believe.  

Edited 2 August , 2017 by Hyacinth1326
wrote re-interred instead of dis-interred. Pratt that I am.

[Hyacinth1326]

2 minutes ago, Stoppage Drill said:

had inappropriate allusions.

Yes but that was inevitable, given the BBC production team would need to show they had included a range of ideological viewpoints, some of them laughable to the historian

Flanders is still a battlefield, only now the battles are fought on paper.  

[phil andrade]

Thank you, Hyacinth.

 

The German occupation of France and Belgium in the Great War....had it been sufficiently harsh to merit that kind of resentment ?

 

Current historiography tends to emphasise that it was a good deal harsher than is generally allowed.

 

Phil

[Hyacinth1326]

10 hours ago, Ian Riley said:

"Grote Markt" might be better today

 Whoops.  I have not been there since 1996.  That's my excuse and I'm sticking to it.

[stiletto_33853]

Agreed Phil, no great surprise. Some comments from Colonel Tim Collins OBE,  come to mind though. "Cheap Shots" we stood next to Australian, Canadian, New Zealand and South African war graves alongside British headstones adding Perhaps this should remind us who our real friends are, who we can rely on and reacquaint ourselves.

I do not remember any cheap shots by the British regarding the French commemorations, however Brexit had not occurred then.

 

Andy

[Stoppage Drill]

2 minutes ago, phil andrade said:

Thank you, Hyacinth.

 

The German occupation of France and Belgium in the Great War....had it been sufficiently harsh to merit that kind of resentment ?

 

Current historiography tends to emphasise that it was a good deal harsher than is generally allowed.

 

Phil

 

I imagine that, if it happened, it may have been a practical act, albeit it callous, rather than vengeful, by peasants who wished to clear their recovered land.

[phil andrade]

5 minutes ago, Stoppage Drill said:

 

I imagine that, if it happened, it may have been a practical act, albeit it callous, rather than vengeful, by peasants who wished to clear their recovered land.

 

That strikes me as entirely plausible.

 

French peasant farmers were bound to be fairly hard headed and pragmatic : they had to be.

 

Phil

[squirrel]

IIRC did the French farmers receive a "bounty" (paid by whom I am unable to recall) after the war for bodies that were discovered on their land?

The amount for an allied soldier was more than that for a German which may be the reason why some German bodies were not reported when found and dealt with as the farmers saw fit..

[AOK4]

1 hour ago, stiletto_33853 said:

Well that did not take long now did it!!

 

Today's Daily Telegraph, page 4 "French and Germans used Paschendaele to Promote EU" British veterans group accuse countries of disgusting attempts to politicise battle centenary.

 

Oops

 

Andy

 

Can you give a short resume of the article?

 

Besides, not everyone in the world has the same views towards WWI as the British. The British (and the former colonies etc.) seem to regard the soldiers as heroes leading the Allies to victory for freedom, most other countries see the soldiers as victims in a European civil war and as a call for unity in Europe so that there would be no more intra-European war. It is all a matter of perspective.

 

Jan

[AOK4]

30 minutes ago, phil andrade said:

Thank you, Hyacinth.

 

The German occupation of France and Belgium in the Great War....had it been sufficiently harsh to merit that kind of resentment ?

 

Current historiography tends to emphasise that it was a good deal harsher than is generally allowed.

 

Phil

 

The German occupation was both harsh at times and sometimes lenient as well (just read some of the stories of Heinrich Wandt, even if some stories are exaggerated or hear-say, to understand how amateuristic German occupation sometimes was). Current historiography tends to look at things sometimes too much from nowadays' viewpoints and in the perspective of WW2 (for which occupation in WW1 would have been a "training ground") and unfortunately most of the historians lack unbiased and first-hand knowledge about Germany and its army around WWI.

 

Jan

[Phil Wood]

27 minutes ago, Stoppage Drill said:

 

I imagine that, if it happened, it may have been a practical act, albeit it callous, rather than vengeful, by peasants who wished to clear their recovered land.

 

Bear in mind that many British cemeteries had to be moved or 'concentrated' because the landowners wanted their land back - I don't suppose there was as much emotional pressure to give up their land for a German cemetery as for a British one.

[Hyacinth1326]

I can't help but wonder whether in corners of certain foreign fields, violation of British cemeteries does't just stop at smashing headstones as at Mosul.  Maybe the desecration goes much further.  And if it did, would be be told ?  Forgive me, this is just distasteful and probably groundless speculation.  After all, a Tommy Jinn would be a ferocious Jinn.

Edited 2 August , 2017 by Hyacinth1326

[Phil Wood]

11 minutes ago, squirrel said:

IIRC did the French farmers receive a "bounty" (paid by whom I am unable to recall) after the war for bodies that were discovered on their land?

The amount for an allied soldier was more than that for a German which may be the reason why some German bodies were not reported when found and dealt with as the farmers saw fit..

 

There have been suggestions that German bodies were passed off as British in order to claim the bounty.

[Hyacinth1326]

Michael Stedman reported the Miraumont Quarries body burning in his book on Fricourt-Mametz (under the Fricourt German Cemetery section) but I am certain it is covered in more detail in another book in the series.  

[sassenach]

50 minutes ago, AOK4 said:

 

Can you give a short resume of the article?

 

Besides, not everyone in the world has the same views towards WWI as the British. The British (and the former colonies etc.) seem to regard the soldiers as heroes leading the Allies to victory for freedom, most other countries see the soldiers as victims in a European civil war and as a call for unity in Europe so that there would be no more intra-European war. It is all a matter of perspective.

 

Jan

Perhaps it is not surprising that the winners see themselves as heroes, and the losers see themselves as victims.  

[PhilB]

In case anyone is wondering about Charles`s medal display, here they are.

[stiletto_33853]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/01/france-germany-accused-hijacking-passchendaele-commemoration/

[Gareth Davies]

Which group is complaining?

[stiletto_33853]

Hi Gareth,

 

The full article states "Tony Hayes, the chief executive of the Veteran's Association UK described the comments as disgusting". Mr. Hayes said: "The French and Germans are using it as leverage against Britain."

Edited 2 August , 2017 by stiletto_33853

[Terry_Reeves]

It was a Mr Tony Hayes, the Chief Executive of an organisation calling themselves the Veterans' Association UK who  made a statement to the press using the word "disgusting". Mr Hayes appears not to have read  the "disgusting" piece properly.

 

TR

 

[sassenach]

I do wish people would try to find an alternative and more measured word to "disgusting." 

[AmericanTommy]

I was one of the reenactors present in Zonnebeke and Ypres over the weekend. Was a very moving experience. If you saw some Cameronians walking about it was a group of us down from Glasgow. On the 31st we got into modern clothes and moved about the salient. I gave a tour to some reenactors following the 15th Division's assault on Frezenberg. Was a bit sad seeing no attention paid on the actual day of the assault at many of the famous sites. Also somewhat irked at the large focus on the word "Passchendaele". Seems no one will talk of Broodseinde, Pilckem, or the other major events which made up the overall Third Battle of Ypres.