War Gratuities

[addeter]

Hi there

I just dowloaded the spreadsheet calculator from the War Gratuities wordpress. Very impressed. I am a lover of spreadsheets, and really like the engineering that went into it. It confirmed what I suspected, which was the soldier I was researching had less than 12 months service.

Anyway, my great great uncle Alfred, a private, was killed in March 1917, and his widow was paid £3 as his war gratuity. He died at either the 9th or the 49th CCS based in Contay in Picardy.

I have been trying to figure out whether he died from wounds, or perhaps in an accident. His unit, the 2nd South Staffs, was involved in fighting on 17th February, took around 100 casualties that day, and then was moved back from the front for the rest of the month. Alfred died on March 4th before his unit returned to the front. I have suspected that he was wounded on the 17th, and died of wounds on the 4th, but unsurprisingly battalion diaries, and the CCS diaries make no specific mention of him.

However, on looking at the war gratuity he was given in the effects register it uses the phrase "in the field" for place of death. Does anyone know if I should read anything into this, rather than "in action".

His entry from the register is at the link below.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ncrh2s8kc8nyclk/1920%20Alfred%20Robottom%20effects%20register.jpg?dl=0

Thanks Antony

[ss002d6252]

Hi there

I just dowloaded the spreadsheet calculator from the War Gratuities wordpress. Very impressed. I am a lover of spreadsheets, and really like the engineering that went into it. It confirmed what I suspected, which was the soldier I was researching had less than 12 months service.

Anyway, my great great uncle Alfred, a private, was killed in March 1917, and his widow was paid £3 as his war gratuity. He died at either the 9th or the 49th CCS based in Contay in Picardy.

I have been trying to figure out whether he died from wounds, or perhaps in an accident. His unit, the 2nd South Staffs, was involved in fighting on 17th February, took around 100 casualties that day, and then was moved back from the front for the rest of the month. Alfred died on March 4th before his unit returned to the front. I have suspected that he was wounded on the 17th, and died of wounds on the 4th, but unsurprisingly battalion diaries, and the CCS diaries make no specific mention of him.

However, on looking at the war gratuity he was given in the effects register it uses the phrase "in the field" for place of death. Does anyone know if I should read anything into this, rather than "in action".

His entry from the register is at the link below.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ncrh2s8kc8nyclk/1920%20Alfred%20Robottom%20effects%20register.jpg?dl=0

Thanks Antony

Thanks - it took many hours.

Soldiers Died in the Great War shows that he 'Died' - it's not 100% accurate but 'Died' is usually used to denote deaths not by enemy action (illness, accident etc).

Craig

[Guest]

Doubt if I will ever get to grips with this, so.......

These two men have consecutive numbers. They were transferred to their regiment at the same time, but both enlisted in the RAMC. They did not serve overseas with the RAMC, and there is no service record for either.

The first was kia on 2/3/1916, the second posted missing 18/7/1916. Is it possible to tell, using the effects amounts, to tell if they enlisted in the RAMC at the same time?

Mike

[ss002d6252]

Doubt if I will ever get to grips with this, so.......

These two men have consecutive numbers. They were transferred to their regiment at the same time, but both enlisted in the RAMC. They did not serve overseas with the RAMC, and there is no service record for either.

The first was kia on 2/3/1916, the second posted missing 18/7/1916. Is it possible to tell, using the effects amounts, to tell if they enlisted in the RAMC at the same time?

Mike

I'll take a look Mike and see what I can establish.

Can you give their numbers or links to the pages ?

Craig

[Guest]

S/11087

S/11088

Thanks Craig.

Mike

[Ron Clifton]

Mike

Bear in mind that soldiers were given fresh numbers when transferring from one corps/regiment to another. Therefore, though they may both have been transferred into a new regiment at the same time, and been given adjacent numbers, and they both came from the RAMC, it does not follow that they both joined the RAMC at the same time, and hence may not have had adjacent RAMC numbers.

Ron

[ss002d6252]

S/11087

S/11088

Thanks Craig.

Mike

Home service only gave a reduced gratuity - for a private the minimum was still £5 (gross) but the monthly addition was 5s rather than 10s. For some reason home service men are more of a pain to work with.

#11087 - £4 net, £6 gross. Gives £5 for first 12 months + £1 for 2 months = 14 months service

#11088 - £6 net, £8 gross. Gives £5 for first 12 months + £3 for 6 months = 18 months service

#11087 suggested enlistment is Feb 15 and #11088 suggested enlistment Feb 15 (obviously either under a RAMC number or any earlier regiment they were in).

Craig

Edited 24 February , 2016 by ss002d6252

[Guest]

Many thanks Craig, that is great information. Again, credit to you for all the work you've done on this. An extremely useful tool (maybe one day the penny will drop for me)

Mike

[ss002d6252]

Many thanks Craig, that is great information. Again, credit to you for all the work you've done on this. An extremely useful tool (maybe one day the penny will drop for me)

Mike

My spreadsheet doesn't cover home service men (yet) but I intend to at some point.

EDIT:

I've corrected my earlier post - I misread what you said and thought they were home-service men only !.

It's also made me notice a bug in my spreadsheet that I hadn't noticed before

Craig

Edited 24 February , 2016 by ss002d6252

[Guest]

Mike

Bear in mind that soldiers were given fresh numbers when transferring from one corps/regiment to another. Therefore, though they may both have been transferred into a new regiment at the same time, and been given adjacent numbers, and they both came from the RAMC, it does not follow that they both joined the RAMC at the same time, and hence may not have had adjacent RAMC numbers.

Ron

Thanks as ever Ron. Yes that makes sense. I think they probably both did enlist at same time, as both working same shop same town. One of them was member of local VAD, possibly both..

Cheers Mike

[ss002d6252]

Thanks as ever Ron. Yes that makes sense. I think they probably both did enlist at same time, as both working same shop same town. One of them was member of local VAD, possibly both..

Cheers Mike

Looks like Feb 15 for both men so I think your theory holds.

Craig

[Guest]

Looks like Feb 15 for both men so I think your theory holds.

Craig

Good man Craig.

Mike

[clk]

Hi,

 

Just starting to research a second cousin (3 times removed) who died of pneumonia in 1916. Does anyone know what ACI 27(iii) said in the context of the image below, and why it negated any entitlement to a war gratuity payment. I'd also be interested in knowing why there was "no pay or allowance from army funds". I'm guessing that it might be some peculiarity relating to how the ASC Canteen Section was funded/run, but would very much welcome any comments.

 

Many thanks.

 

Regards

Chris

[RaySearching]

Army Order 17 of 1919 

From our good friend ss002d6252 (Craig)   Here

 

who I am sure to be along shortly to explain 

 

regards Ray

 

[ss002d6252]

5 minutes ago, RaySearching said:

Army Order 17 of 1919 

From our good friend ss002d6252 (Craig)   Here

 

who I am sure to be along shortly to explain 

 

regards Ray

 

I will - as soon as I can figure out exactly to what it's referring. I have my thoughts but I need to check.

Craig

[clk]

Hi Ray/Craig,

 

I had a look at Craigs (excellent) website and read the AO, but couldn't see how it fitted in with what I currently know. So in this case I think the key must be the wording of the ACI.

 

Thanks to the both of you.

 

Regards

Chris

[ss002d6252]

He was

58 minutes ago, clk said:

Hi,

 

Just starting to research a second cousin (3 times removed) who died of pneumonia in 1916. Does anyone know what ACI 27(iii) said in the context of the image below, and why it negated any entitlement to a war gratuity payment. I'd also be interested in knowing why there was "no pay or allowance from army funds". I'm guessing that it might be some peculiarity relating to how the ASC Canteen Section was funded/run, but would very much welcome any comments.

 

Many thanks.

 

Regards

Chris

He was in receipt of civilian wages - this always disbarred a man from getting a gratuity for the period (usually post office workers - first canteen man I've seen). He must only have served in the army canteen on civilian wages.

 

Para 27 of the AO

Paragraphs 12 (c) of the Schedule refers to service spent in the following categories :-(i) Soldiers enlisted for Forage Department, Royal Army Service Corps.
(ii) Civilian staffs of war hospitals enlisted at civil rates of pay for home and local service.
(iii) Soldiers serving with the Expeditionary Force Canteens and drawing civil rates of pay. (Any period during which the soldier was attached to the Expeditionary Force Canteens and drawing Army rates of pay will reckon as war service).
(iv) Soldiers released for civil employment as munitions workers.
(v) In the case of a soldier in agricultural employment, the whole of any continuous period of more than 8 months during which he may have been so employed and in receipt of civil pay under the conditions of ACI 1155 of 1917.
(vi) In the case of a soldier released from military duty under Army Order 229 of 1918 the whole of any continuous period of more than 8 months during which he was not entitled to Army pay and allowance.Soldiers of the Transport Workers Battalions and of the Dock Battalions, King’s Liverpool Regiment will be eligible for the gratuity.

 

Para 12(c) of the schedule says
The following periods of service will not reckon as qualifying service for the purposes of the gratuity:-
(a) Any period of service previous to the date of conviction, or of the order dispensing with a trial, for desertion, unless such service is restored under the King’s Regulations on or before the 3^rd August 1919.
(b) Any period of penal servitude, or of imprisonment or detention exceeding 28 days undergone by the soldier, and any continuous period of absence without leave exceeding 28 days.
(c) Any period of service during which the soldier has been continuously in receipt of full civil wages, except, as may be otherwise provided by the Army Council.
(d) Any period of service as a soldier of the Non-Combatant Corps.

 

Craig

4 minutes ago, clk said:

Hi Ray/Craig,

 

I had a look at Craigs (excellent) website and read the AO, but couldn't see how it fitted in with what I currently know. So in this case I think the key must be the wording of the ACI.

 

Thanks to the both of you.

 

Regards

Chris

My reply has just crossed with your post.

 

Craig

[clk]

Many, many thanks Craig,

 

Last known to me (in 1911) he was a licensed victualler/publican, whose father had owned a small brewery. I guess the next step for me is to look at the circumstances under which men could be engaged on civilian pay rates, and how those rates were benchmarked. The wording "no pay or allowance from army funds" did make me wonder if there was some kind of recourse elsewhere. Just looking at it today, I understand that pre 1917, and the establishment of the Navy and Army Control Board, external contractors had more influence in supplying (and pricing) goods to the canteens, and wondered whether they might have had some kind of contractual obligations,

 

Regards

Chris

[ss002d6252]

3 minutes ago, clk said:

Many, many thanks Craig,

 

Last known to me (in 1911) he was a licensed victualler/publican, whose father had owned a small brewery. I guess the next step for me is to look at the circumstances under which men could be engaged on civilian pay rates, and how those rates were benchmarked. The wording "no pay or allowance from army funds" did make me wonder if there was some kind of recourse elsewhere. Just looking at it today, I understand that pre 1917, and the establishment of the Navy and Army Control Board, external contractors had more influence in supplying (and pricing) goods to the canteens, and wondered whether they might have had some kind of contractual obligations,

 

Regards

Chris

I'll take a poke around tomorrow and see if I can see anything - I'm disappearing soon to the exciting world of studying 'contract law'.

 

Craig

[ss002d6252]

1 hour ago, clk said:

Many, many thanks Craig,

 

Last known to me (in 1911) he was a licensed victualler/publican, whose father had owned a small brewery. I guess the next step for me is to look at the circumstances under which men could be engaged on civilian pay rates, and how those rates were benchmarked. The wording "no pay or allowance from army funds" did make me wonder if there was some kind of recourse elsewhere. Just looking at it today, I understand that pre 1917, and the establishment of the Navy and Army Control Board, external contractors had more influence in supplying (and pricing) goods to the canteens, and wondered whether they might have had some kind of contractual obligations,

 

Regards

Chris

Around Nov 16 was when they announced the set-up would be changed in how they were run (180 firms with 1800 staff). The fact he was a soldier, at the time the canteens were civilian, is interesting. Presumably the staffing was a mix of army and civilian, with the firms taking over the soldiers wages.

 

 

#089014 Andre was also appointed to the ASC Canteens as a Sgt.

 

Part of the special 'terms & conditions' survives in Andre's record - http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbm%2fwo363-4%2f007285763%2f00706&parentid=gbm%2fwo363-4%2f7285763%2f34%2f696

 

The terms of service specifically point out that , financially, he's not the army's problem.

 

Craig

Edited 2 November , 2016 by ss002d6252

[clk]

Thank you Craig. That's really helpful of you, and most interesting.

 

Regards

Chris

[wandererpaul]

Hi Craig

Your knowledge on War Gratuity would be greatly received this end.

 

Can you help with this man please? What sort of enlistment date would his gratuity give?

 

Also, his service number 21127, what date does this give us too?

 

I know he's at Fort Hill Hospital in Rochester in 1911 census.

 

Many thanks

 

Paul

Edited 4 November , 2016 by wandererpaul

[ss002d6252]

10 minutes ago, wandererpaul said:

Hi Craig

Your knowledge on War Gratuity would be greatly received this end.

 

Can you help with this man please? What sort of enlistment date would his gratuity give?

 

Also, his service number 21127, what date does this give us too?

 

I know he's at Fort Hill Hospital in Rochester in 1911 census.

 

Many thanks

 

Paul

£24 10s gives a war gratuity for 51 months qualifying service. This in itself indicates either being embodied in August 14 or enlistment in 14.

 

I'm not sure when his service number of #21127 was allocated.

 

Craig

[wandererpaul]

Many thanks.

[wandererpaul]

Re his number, 21127, this page gives a date of enlistment as before or around February 1911.

 

Quote

 

19801 joined on 25th January 1910
21130 joined on 2nd February 1911
22616 joined on 2nd March 1912 

Edited 4 November , 2016 by wandererpaul