ss002d6252 Posted 30 March , 2015 Author Share Posted 30 March , 2015 It is not the paybooks but the ledgers that are needed. The pay ledgers would be the ultimate coup but the pay books could give an idea as to how it was paid out. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin RussT Posted 30 March , 2015 Admin Share Posted 30 March , 2015 It was £2 basic + £1 for each extra year. It threw me and I nearly gave up on the calculations at first. Craig OK - thanks for that clarification. I did a search on FMP within their newspapers and periodicals archives - and from the numerous examples of correspondence on this subject it looks like there was just as much room for confusion then than there is now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 30 March , 2015 Author Share Posted 30 March , 2015 OK - thanks for that clarification. I did a search on FMP within their newspapers and periodicals archives - and from the numerous examples of correspondence on this subject it looks like there was just as much room for confusion then than there is now! There's a lot of mentions of it but the very little is 100% conclusive. I'm just pleased that I've managed to figure out a working system , even if some of the intricacies are still unknown. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnboy Posted 30 March , 2015 Share Posted 30 March , 2015 The pay ledgers would be the ultimate coup but the pay books could give an idea as to how it was paid out. Craig They may shed some light. The ones I have seen only show 'withdrawals'. I don't know how many pages they contained but would there have been enough for say, 4yrs worth of entries? What happened when the book was full or lost? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 30 March , 2015 Author Share Posted 30 March , 2015 They may shed some light. The ones I have seen only show 'withdrawals'. I don't know how many pages they contained but would there have been enough for say, 4yrs worth of entries? What happened when the book was full or lost? Haven't the foggiest on that . Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Cove Posted 5 April , 2015 Share Posted 5 April , 2015 Apologies if this has been mentioned before in the thread and I missed it. It seems that in addition to the rates quoted in the previous Hansard excerpts there was another one for Staff Sergeants. They were awarded £10 for the first year of service, e.g. Staff Sergeant Edward Cecil Allport, RAMC. Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 9 July , 2015 Author Share Posted 9 July , 2015 I have now, in principal, had StandTo! confirm they would be interested in an article I have written about the Soldiers Effects and the Gratuity so I need to polish it up a bit and make the final submission but hopefully it'll get accepted. Time will tell !. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin RussT Posted 9 July , 2015 Admin Share Posted 9 July , 2015 Craig Well done and thanks for all your hard work in getting to the bottom of this. I would be very pleased to receive a copy of your article if at all possible once you have finished it. Regards Russ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 9 July , 2015 Author Share Posted 9 July , 2015 Craig Well done and thanks for all your hard work in getting to the bottom of this. I would be very pleased to receive a copy of your article if at all possible once you have finished it. Regards Russ Thanks, I can do - it's been a slog but I reckon it's nearly sorted. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clk Posted 9 July , 2015 Share Posted 9 July , 2015 Hi Craig, That's excellent news !! I think that the research you've been doing on the scheme can significantly help many, many people where actual service records no longer exist, and rightfully deserves public recognition. I hope that when you've "nailed it" you are in a position to update your estimator for amateurs like me. Regards Chris Edited Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 9 July , 2015 Author Share Posted 9 July , 2015 Hi Craig, That's excellent news !! I think that the research you've been doing on the scheme can significantly help many, many people where actual Service Records no longer exist, and rightfully deserves "public" recognition. I hope that when you've absolutely "nailed it" you are in a position to update your estimator for amateurs like me. Regards Chris Thanks - the cases I've looked at are in most cases spot on to the month but where it doesn't match it opens some interesting extra details. For example: If you check a man's gratuity and see he got 15 months worth but on checking further you can see it appears he actually enlisted earlier based on his number- it's not an error in the gratuity (usually) but an extra piece of information. The shortfall in the gratuity tells you that he didn't get a full gratuity because he either had a period of detention above 28 days, had deserted or more likely had spent time on munitions work (or equivalent release to civilian employment). What it can also suggest is prior service for a man - if his number suggests Jan 15 but the gratuity says Dec 14 then you can derive that he quite possibly had previous service with a different number. Clearly nothing is ever an absolute certainty but , tied with other pieces, it adds to the web. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 16 August , 2015 Author Share Posted 16 August , 2015 I have now launched a website regarding the gratuity (still under development) and attached a version of my latest calculator (also still under development).https://wargratuity.wordpress.com/ Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnboy Posted 16 August , 2015 Share Posted 16 August , 2015 Well done Craig. A useful tool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 16 August , 2015 Author Share Posted 16 August , 2015 Well done Craig. A useful tool. It's getting there - slowly but surely !. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin RussT Posted 17 August , 2015 Admin Share Posted 17 August , 2015 Craig Great stuff - thank you very much for sharing. I particularly like the criterion you have found (based on the way the WG is entered on the Register viz Type 1 or Type 2) to decide whether the SG has already been accounted for or not. One minor (presentational) suggestion. Your blog defines the Type 1 or 2 WG entries but your Calculator tool (very handy, thank you) asks for it the other way round. I would suggest you opt to define it one way or another but have your blog and tool the same and self-consistent. Well done Regards Russ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 17 August , 2015 Author Share Posted 17 August , 2015 Craig Great stuff - thank you very much for sharing. I particularly like the criterion you have found (based on the way the WG is entered on the Register viz Type 1 or Type) to decide whether the SG has already been accounted for or not. One minor (presentational) suggestion. Your blog defines the Type 1 or 2 WG entries but your Calculator tool (very handy, thank you) asks for it the other way round. I would suggest you opt to define it one way or another but have your blog and tool the same and self-consistent. Well done Regards Russ Well spotted Russ - just wanted to see if anyone was looking !. I'll swap it around in the next version. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 17 August , 2015 Author Share Posted 17 August , 2015 I particularly like the criterion you have found (based on the way the WG is entered on the Register viz Type 1 or Type 2) to decide whether the SG has already been accounted for or not. It was staring me in the face the whole time and feel slightly stupid that I missed the obvious. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 22 August , 2015 Share Posted 22 August , 2015 Well done Craig, great work. I think your brain has to work in a certain way to get this, and mine doesn't. As we say in Jockland, " it gans richt ower ma heid " Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 22 August , 2015 Author Share Posted 22 August , 2015 Well done Craig, great work. I think your brain has to work in a certain way to get this, and mine doesn't. As we say in Jockland, " it gans richt ower ma heid " Mike Thanks Mike. I can visualise it all in my head ok, it's getting it down in the spreadsheet that's been a pain. Hopefully I've got my head around it enough to make it workable. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Cove Posted 24 August , 2015 Share Posted 24 August , 2015 Craig, For completeness you might consider adding a further sheet to your calculator for Staff Serjeants. These were evidently awarded a flat rate war gratuity of £10 compared to the £8 for Serjeant and £12 for WO2. You can check this out with a search for Staff Serjeants in the CWGC database. I looked at those who died in the second 6 months of the war so most of these would have qualified for the basic war gratuity even if they didn't serve overseas. The majority were awarded £10 and the others £8 (the latter were presumably wartime enlistments and so had £2 service gratuity deducted). Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 24 August , 2015 Author Share Posted 24 August , 2015 Craig, For completeness you might consider adding a further sheet to your calculator for Staff Serjeants. These were evidently awarded a flat rate war gratuity of £10 compared to the £8 for Serjeant and £12 for WO2. You can check this out with a search for Staff Serjeants in the CWGC database. I looked at those who died in the second 6 months of the war so most of these would have qualified for the basic war gratuity even if they didn't serve overseas. The majority were awarded £10 and the others £8 (the latter were presumably wartime enlistments and so had £2 service gratuity deducted). Roger So far I've not come across any rate listed in the gratuity paperwork for these - have you any specific examples I can look at ? ( If I can see a few I may have the answer as to why) Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Cove Posted 24 August , 2015 Share Posted 24 August , 2015 So far I've not come across any rate listed in the gratuity paperwork for these - have you any specific examples I can look at ? ( If I can see a few I may have the answer as to why) Craig The first two, in alphabetical order, on my CWGC database trawl were Staff Serjeants 17454 E C Allport RAMC (died 27 June 1915) and 6779 Alfred James Armer Dorsetshire Regt (died 8 June 1915). Both of these were regular soldiers, at least they were both in the military in the 1911 census, and both received £10 war gratuity. My total sample size was about thirty. Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Wade Posted 24 August , 2015 Share Posted 24 August , 2015 I have now launched a website regarding the gratuity (still under development) and attached a version of my latest calculator (also still under development). https://wargratuity.wordpress.com/ Craig That's just terriffic! It's really good of you to develop and post this on line for anyone to use and I'm really grateful for this. Many thanks indeed Craig! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 24 August , 2015 Author Share Posted 24 August , 2015 That's just terriffic! It's really good of you to develop and post this on line for anyone to use and I'm really grateful for this. Many thanks indeed Craig! Thanks Andy - not just myself but I've had plenty of help on here. I'll be updating it regularly, at least for the next few months. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Wade Posted 24 August , 2015 Share Posted 24 August , 2015 Absolutely Craig, many thanks to everyone whose had a hand in this. Going to have a good look through all the soldiers effects I already have to see what it dates it throws up. A couple of them have service records so it can be checked against the dates on them. Marvellous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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