shippingsteel Posted 3 March , 2015 Share Posted 3 March , 2015 As time goes on and the years go by, collectors usually end up accumulating MOST of the generally easily obtainable items in their area of interest. What then.? They are then left with an array of empty 'slots' where those decidely rare or 'way beyond our price range' items may possibly fit in, if ever they were to be found. Therein lies the quandary. What to do when those special items are 'found'. Do we go all out to obtain these rare items, or remain all price conscious to the end.? As we all know, the numbers of these things are limited in the extreme. They aren't making any more of them.! Every day these items are becoming ever scarcer. And after having collected all the 'everyday' variations, the ones we need to complete our collections are now considered to be 'top-shelf' and priced accordingly. But sometimes we get the chance to pick them up. Every so often some prize item surfaces from some collection that was painstakingly built up over many years. Then we ask ourselves that big question. How badly do we need it - how much do we pay.? Are we just hobbyists, investors or really 'custodians' of that history.? Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peregrinvs Posted 3 March , 2015 Share Posted 3 March , 2015 As time goes on and the years go by, collectors usually end up accumulating MOST of the generally easily obtainable items in their area of interest. What then.? In my case, I go on to new collecting areas as I don't focus on any single one. In the case of bayonets and guns I have *most* of the ones I want at prices I want to pay. (My 'would like to own - but not badly enough to pay the market rate' list sadly gets ever longer) Since then I have gone on to 20th century British webbing equipment, (now winding down a little for the same reasons as above) postwar British combat clothing and most recently I have rediscovered a very old interest in inert ordnance. How much to pay? This is largely subjective. I tend to 'know' what I am personally prepared to pay for an item and if I can't get it for that I can usually live without. In my experience the 'wait for a bargain to turn up' approach pays off surprisingly often, but again having catholic tastes helps in that regard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dust Jacket Collector Posted 3 March , 2015 Share Posted 3 March , 2015 As a book collector it's a question I'm faced with all the time. If you see it and miss it you'll always regret it so for me, unless the item is too ludicrously high, then go for it. There's always something less important you can do without. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 3 March , 2015 Share Posted 3 March , 2015 Then we ask ourselves that big question. How badly do we need it - how much do we pay.? Are we just hobbyists, investors or really 'custodians' of that history.? Cheers, S>S S>S, Great questions, which I am sure we have all asked ourselves at some point, and we have all lived with the ' Collecting Monkey ' on our backs. How bad do we need it ? in reality, it is not usually essential to our lives. How much do we pay ?, if we want the item badly enough, whatever it costs. Are we hobbyists, investors or custodians of history ?, probably all three. I think most serious collectors have an eye on the future, and hope that their collecting efforts will yield a good return. Some 25 years ago, I chased down 2 items for my WW2 collection, and back then paid 500 pounds for each, which was not cheap. I just sold both items in America one for $7,500 and the other for $12,250, making me not a hobbyist nor a custodian of history, but rather a happy investor. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 3 March , 2015 Share Posted 3 March , 2015 I was always being asked this type of question when I worked full-time in the travel business - "Is this real silver brooch [on sale in Reyjavik/Quaqartoq/Dakar/Ushuai/etc, etc] worth X, or Y, or Z?" To which the answer was," It is worth what you think it is, but always remember you might not see another one like it - and even then, it is worth what you think it is". Generally, I take the same approach as DJC and Peregrinus. So, with the excellently preserved Weyseburg 1903 bayonet I saw on Sunday, with a fantastic scabbard and original frog: I have a few examples of those, not in such good condition, and the scabbards of mine are a bit wonky, and I have no original frogs, but mine cost nothing approaching even a quarter of what the guy wanted - TL 2,500! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerhunter Posted 3 March , 2015 Share Posted 3 March , 2015 It is a truism in the antiques and collectibles world that one must NEVER EVER buy as an investment. Retailers make HUGE markups on items and it will usually take years (if ever) to make that up. One should only buy an item because one likes it and, from time to time, one may make a profit - but the latter should be looked upon as a bonus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N White Posted 3 March , 2015 Share Posted 3 March , 2015 For me, part of the interest of collecting is the hunt. Sure, I can go to a dealer site, or gunbroker, and outright buy my list of wants (to a point...as finances allow) but where is the satisfaction in that? It is as satisfying to find the right price, as the right item. Each item has a story of its own, and part of that story is how I acquired it. My 1917 BSA, was a rescue, $129, missing a mag and 3 screws. Is it a prewar example with volley sights? Of course not. But it shoots great and I am into it for under $200. I'm still looking for that early one, but I wouldn't give up my BSA. The wonderful truth is there are plenty of guns out there, of a large variety, and several of my favorites were not ones I was actively looking for. I do not look at my collection as an investment. I am a "things" person, my wife is a "trips and experiences" person. Either way, it is an entertainment expense, and you expect nothing more from it than the pleasure of doing what you like. That said, because of my focus on finding deals and taking opportunities, what I have sunk into my collection versus what the items would sell for, is quite disproportionate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redbarchetta Posted 3 March , 2015 Share Posted 3 March , 2015 For me, part of the interest of collecting is the hunt. Sure, I can go to a dealer site, or gunbroker, and outright buy my list of wants (to a point...as finances allow) but where is the satisfaction in that? It is as satisfying to find the right price, as the right item. My thoughts exactly - anyone can form a collection if money is no object - the fun is in finding something you know more about than the seller and getting it for a bargain price. In fairness, as a collector of trench art there are no 'lists' of things I have yet to find, as all pieces are unique and there is no way of knowing what else is out there until it turns up, but even so, I know a bargain when I see one, and know a speculative dealer overpricing something when I see it too! James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 3 March , 2015 Share Posted 3 March , 2015 It is a truism in the antiques and collectibles world that one must NEVER EVER buy as an investment. Retailers make HUGE markups on items and it will usually take years (if ever) to make that up. One should only buy an item because one likes it and, from time to time, one may make a profit - but the latter should be looked upon as a bonus. Totally agree - and I think it is crazy that so many retailers put so high a price on things often bought relatively cheaply at auctions and then justify the high prices by claiming the market is slow so they have to cover my storage cost... Like hotels with their stupid bar prices who wonder why people bring in their own booze... The investment value is a bonus, if it works out that way, and if one is going to sell up... For me, part of the interest of collecting is the hunt. Sure, I can go to a dealer site, or gunbroker, and outright buy my list of wants (to a point...as finances allow) but where is the satisfaction in that? It is as satisfying to find the right price, as the right item. Each item has a story of its own, and part of that story is how I acquired it. My 1917 BSA, was a rescue, $129, missing a mag and 3 screws. Is it a prewar example with volley sights? Of course not. But it shoots great and I am into it for under $200. I'm still looking for that early one, but I wouldn't give up my BSA. The wonderful truth is there are plenty of guns out there, of a large variety, and several of my favorites were not ones I was actively looking for. I do not look at my collection as an investment. I am a "things" person, my wife is a "trips and experiences" person. Either way, it is an entertainment expense, and you expect nothing more from it than the pleasure of doing what you like. That said, because of my focus on finding deals and taking opportunities, what I have sunk into my collection versus what the items would sell for, is quite disproportionate. Well said! I think I have bought about 10-15 pieces from the e-bay equivalent over here, at the beginning of collecting, although I still keep a check on what comes up that might be a bargain (watching a nice if boring Waffenfabrik 98/05 at the moment - do I need yet another? No, but if it goes for TL 100 or so, why not?!). I get almost all my pieces from the Antika Pazari, with a few supplied by a dealer friend who knows my likes and gives me first choice. I generally work to a monthly limit, and have a reasonable idea of what each piece is worth to others and to me, the vital point, and only once have I paid significantly over what I would have liked to pay - but that was for a rather exceptional piece which came up at a time of drastic Turkish lira decline when the owner had insisted on a sale price in GBP... Investment? Well, perhaps... But I will admit that if a bit of friction does arise in the house over my hobby I do point out that my bayonets and books will still be around in a few years time, unlike shoes, etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark holden Posted 3 March , 2015 Share Posted 3 March , 2015 I agree 100% if its for you buy because you like it not for profit. If in the course of collecting bargains come along that's great but as a collector I am prepared to push the boat out for that rare item but only if if I can afford it at the time. Increasingly the bits I am looking for now would be clsssed as scarce or rare so I am always fighting others in the same boat and sometimes prices run out of control. all the best Mark It is a truism in the antiques and collectibles world that one must NEVER EVER buy as an investment. Retailers make HUGE markups on items and it will usually take years (if ever) to make that up. One should only buy an item because one likes it and, from time to time, one may make a profit - but the latter should be looked upon as a bonus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 3 March , 2015 Share Posted 3 March , 2015 I recently made a decision to downsize my very eclectic collection, so apart from my books, buttons and some items that have a strong personal connection (or had huge impact on the wallet), most has gone. The last of it is being donated to a museum. I did feel a bit sad, but not as bad as I expected. So if you have picked up anything recently pass a UV light over it and you might see my name and postcode. Regarding gaps, there has been a hole in my post 1881 button collection where I am missing a 1881 - 1895 KOYLI, I bought one years ago but when I got home it was missing, I could probably get away with framing the collection as is, but can't because I know there is a gap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon92 Posted 3 March , 2015 Share Posted 3 March , 2015 I see collecting as an evolutionary process. Old passions fade and new ones emerge. Along that line, I do sell off previously prized items that are no longer so important sometimes at a good profit and sometimes not. This furnishes fresh capital to fuel newer interests and allows me to occasionally pay a top of the line price for a highly wanted item. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 3 March , 2015 Share Posted 3 March , 2015 It is a truism in the antiques and collectibles world that one must NEVER EVER buy as an investment. Retailers make HUGE markups on items and it will usually take years (if ever) to make that up. One should only buy an item because one likes it and, from time to time, one may make a profit - but the latter should be looked upon as a bonus. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 3 March , 2015 Share Posted 3 March , 2015 It is a truism in the antiques and collectibles world that one must NEVER EVER buy as an investment. Retailers make HUGE markups on items and it will usually take years (if ever) to make that up. One should only buy an item because one likes it and, from time to time, one may make a profit - but the latter should be looked upon as a bonus. To a point I agree however if you buy quality at a high price in my experience you always see a profit as long as you wish to realise it. Quality always sells and at the moment if you have Militaria, quality and provenance you are onto a winner. Militaria is still demanding high prices across the board.TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 4 March , 2015 Share Posted 4 March , 2015 A really interesting thread. After 5 years of collecting lots of different 'types' of bayonets, I realised that the ones I valued most were the ones with a certain history to them – ie unit marked to British units (especially those that fought at Gallipoli and the Western Front) and early Australian marked bayonets. I recently sold off a sizeable part of my collection which fell outside these parameters and used the money to buy a few more expensive bayonets which I had my eye on but would not otherwise have been able to afford. There's definitely a cap on what I can spend on an item, but I would now much rather buy fewer quality items than lots of lower quality items. And I agree that collectors are acting as custodians of the pieces they collect - I get a lot of pleasure in finding a nice Aussie bayonet and "bringing it home" from the US! Cheers, J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 4 March , 2015 Share Posted 4 March , 2015 To a point I agree however if you buy quality at a high price in my experience you always see a profit as long as you wish to realise it. Quality always sells and at the moment if you have Militaria, quality and provenance you are onto a winner. Militaria is still demanding high prices across the board. TT You are right, good quality militaria makes money, but I had some surprises, especially with the WW2 items, stuff that you could buy in every army surplus shop in every town until a few years ago for pence, such as 3 complete sets of 37ptn webbing fetched 140 quid each. Possibly because they were all large belts and large braces and fitted him off the shelf, but even so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 4 March , 2015 Author Share Posted 4 March , 2015 Many interesting comments posted above. All showing a slightly different perspective on what is mostly a common theme across the various areas of collecting. And different views are to be entirely expected as collecting itself is a very personal activity. There are no 'rules' as such, and "each to his own" is a good motto. Personally, I have collected without ever having purchased from a dealer's website. There is something about 'paying too much' to which I am strongly opposed.! And as some have already mentioned, where is the fun and satisfaction in that.? Just plonking down your money and walking away hardly constitutes a challenge.! I have of course used the online auction sites, which can be useful from time to time. There are often bargains to be had (missed identifications & bad descriptions) But again competition can be fierce on those particularly sought after items, which does tend to negate their usefulness as a way to source the items that you seek. I do like the atmosphere of large Militaria fairs, and haggling with those type of dealers is always a lot of fun. But the pickings are usually fairly slim and well handled. You get to the stage where there is not that much around in the regular 'fishing spots' that really get your attention. Antique shops are always the unknown quantity.! Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 4 March , 2015 Share Posted 4 March , 2015 Is there any one subject you would advise a newcomer to collect? My own advice is don't pay out any big money until you have attended a few fairs and seen other collections, handle as much as possible and then decide, usually you get a feeling about an item. Then read as much as you can, not just about your subject but about the context, how it fits in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 4 March , 2015 Share Posted 4 March , 2015 Many interesting comments posted above. All showing a slightly different perspective on what is mostly a common theme across the various areas of collecting. Indeed - and many of us are, I suspect, wondering what the item was that inspired this thread! Not one of those experimental S.98's? That's about the rarest I can think of at the moment! I am in broad agreement with you on most of your comments in the above post, as there is nothing like the chase and the find, except that collecting choices are rare in Turkey. For example, we have no militaria fairs, and the import of bladed weapons is prohibited - if found in the bags, they are simply confiscated but a penalty is possible also (not quite shades of a certain film, but financial!). There are exactly two 'antika pazarilar' (i.e., really glorified car-boot sales) in Turkey each month, one in Istanbul, one in Ankara, and on the same day; precious few 'real' Antique shops (which over-charge anyway); and exactly one junk shop! I usually find something at the monthly Antika Pazari here that is reasonable - my latest good find being a 1920 marked 98/05, and the odd piece pops up on the local e-bay, often at ridiculous prices, as with a Gras being offered for TL 9,000 - that's about USD 4,000! But I can find bargains there - my Luxembourg piece and the Simson 1887 came that way. However, for the really hard to get items and even the odd bargain then I am not ashamed to have a dealer friend who always gives me first choice, even though the thrill of the chase is missing. TTFN, Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerhunter Posted 4 March , 2015 Share Posted 4 March , 2015 Is there any one subject you would advise a newcomer to collect? My own advice is don't pay out any big money until you have attended a few fairs and seen other collections, handle as much as possible and then decide, usually you get a feeling about an item. Then read as much as you can, not just about your subject but about the context, how it fits in. The first items to buy are books about the subject and join a club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartH Posted 4 March , 2015 Share Posted 4 March , 2015 I think I am slightly different collector and I am interested in the sum of the parts, but enjoy like everyone, adding new things. I would advise new collectors research, research and more research. Also don't believe all you read in books. Finally be aware if you always haggle and bargain hard, when the really rare stuff comes up and a dealer has it, he won't contact you first, many a collection is missing the un-obtain-am, because when a dealer has it for the first time in 20 year, he has 50 customers, and the bargain hunter is last on the list. I am not saying don't enjoy a bargain, we all do, but scarcity is everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie Posted 4 March , 2015 Share Posted 4 March , 2015 I have been fortunate enough in the past to obtain WW1 machine guns - both British and German, at a time when prices were relatively low. Although I no longer have them, at least I once had the pleasure of having them in my humble abode. I won't go into the reasons of disposing of the collection - and it had nothing to do with money. But nowadays it is almost as costly to buy a deactivated Mg08 as it is to buy a small family car - and that is a ridiculous state of affairs. With being retired, and now on a much smaller income, I rely on being able to find the occasional treasure at ridiculously low prices. It can certainly be done if you search enough! I do still make the occasional higher-end purchases, but usually it is through selling off some of my other items. Anything is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. The problem is that some collectors are stupid enough to pay far in excess of an items worth - simply because they just HAVE to have it for their collection. These are the kind of collectors with whom dealers just love to sell to! I suppose we have all knowingly paid over the odds for something at some time in our collecting career, and so we are all to blame for the current situation in the collecting world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peregrinvs Posted 4 March , 2015 Share Posted 4 March , 2015 The rising prices of militaria are simply the result of decreasing supply and increasing demand and the main reason for that is the internet. I don't buy the idea that it is primarily caused by people 'paying over the odds' - the only objective measure of whether a collectable is priced 'over the odds' is whether or not it sells. But having said that I regularly thank my lucky stars I acquired the bulk of my bayonet and deact collection around 10-20 years ago as I certainly couldn't afford to start from scratch again. So it goes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flers1916 Posted 4 March , 2015 Share Posted 4 March , 2015 In case this helps I started my collection with the aim of having an example of the weapons and equipment carried by a fighting man on the Western Front. I found this difficult to keep to but it was my starting point. I have since bought a couple of post WW1 pistols. Can I use this post to ask what do collectors intend to do with their collections as an instruction in their will or before? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 4 March , 2015 Share Posted 4 March , 2015 The first items to buy are books about the subject and join a club. Books? Too true, although some sneer at 'bookish learnin''! Clubs, well where appropriate! But, yes,research mucho-macho when starting and books and forums like this are a major part of the key. When I was just beginning to get an interest in bayonets I had no idea of what many of the ones around were and missed a nice P.1907 HQ with the right scabbard simply because I had no idea what it was other than being a P.1907 bayonet! In case this helps I started my collection with the aim of having an example of the weapons and equipment carried by a fighting man on the Western Front. I found this difficult to keep to but it was my starting point. I have since bought a couple of post WW1 pistols. Can I use this post to ask what do collectors intend to do with their collections as an instruction in their will or before? I had hoped to get at least one example of every bayonet used by the main fighting forces in WW1 plus one of each Turkish-issued bayonet... Have to admit the first aim is no longer a priority and I am trying to specialise in German WW1 types and Turkish ones. As for afters? Well, my daughter already has my 17th-18th century English Delft ware collection, and the boys will get these pointed things.., Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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