WILKINSON / PALL MALL P.1907 bayonets

[JMB1943]

Speaking of dull/sharp bayonets and cutting a loaf of bread, I am currently re-reading "There's a Devil in the Drum", by John F. Lucy.

He served in the Royal Irish Rifles, and whilst describing the retreat from Mons he writes (Chapter 23, p. 123),

"While we were resting our officers visited the local shops for food, and amused us by reappearing with bread transfixed on their swords--an ingenious way of carrying half a dozen bulky loaves of French bread."

So the swords had at least some usefulness!

Regards,

JMB

 

[t.ryan]

4thGordons, JMB, MikeyH.

Back to the John White and the JWB marked scabbard.

This photo shows the old John Whites delivery van clearly showing John Whites Boots painted on the side as well as a small write up about the boot and shoe industry in 1919.

Could that J.W.B. stand for John Whites Boots. as Ian Skennerton's book states.??? or is the 1917 dated scabbard to early for John Whites. ???

Cheers,

TR

 

 

[MikeyH]

10 hours ago, t.ryan said:

4thGordons, JMB, MikeyH.

Back to the John White and the JWB marked scabbard.

This photo shows the old John Whites delivery van clearly showing John Whites Boots painted on the side as well as a small write up about the boot and shoe industry in 1919.

Could that J.W.B. stand for John Whites Boots. as Ian Skennerton's book states.??? or is the 1917 dated scabbard to early for John Whites. ???

Cheers,

TR

 

 

TR,

According to an online history of the company, John White established his business in 1918 in Rushden, by the end of 1919 he employed three people.  He seems to have been a very astute businessman and by 1921 had made 100,000 pairs of shoes and boots.  By 1935, the company was the largest shoemaker in Britain.  During the Spanish Civil War, both sides wore White's footwear, 100,000 pairs being supplied to each.  

Mike.

Edited 31 March by MikeyH

[t.ryan]

MikeyH,

I have also been doing a bit more homework on JWB  and emailed the company (still going) to see if they had any information on early history on whether other leather components were made during WW1. 

I was very surprised with the quick response from Stuart. His email enclosed; is more or less also saying that WW1 was possibly to early for John White to be involved.

I looked into the Rusden museum but it is currently closed for winter until mid May.

Cheers.

TR

[MikeyH]

15 hours ago, t.ryan said:

MikeyH,

I have also been doing a bit more homework on JWB  and emailed the company (still going) to see if they had any information on early history on whether other leather components were made during WW1. 

I was very surprised with the quick response from Stuart. His email enclosed; is more or less also saying that WW1 was possibly to early for John White to be involved.

I looked into the Rusden museum but it is currently closed for winter until mid May.

Cheers.

TR

TR,

The company supplied over eight million pairs of boots to the armed forces in WW2, 'one ninth of the footwear supplied to the troops'.

Regards,

Mike.

Edited 1 April by MikeyH

[t.ryan]

 

MikeyH,

That is one hell of a lot of pairs of military boots, and a great effort from the John White Boot Factory.

It would appear that John White was a little late for WW1 marked components such as the scabbard mentioned above; but it will be interesting to see if they supplied component parts other than boots leading up to and during WW2 and if so what identifying stamps they may have used. I will check out the Rushden museum at a later date and see if any information is available.

It would also be interesting to find out the same thing with the J.W.B. marked scabbard and the J W Brookes firm which was mentioned earlier.

Cheers,

TR

 

[4thGordons]

There was s a boot and shoe museum in Northampton which also has archives! 
i think it is housed in the ArtGallery and Museum.
i remember walking past the John white factory as a kid - in the summer they would have the doors open and it ( and the smell of glue etc) always fascinated me.

Chris

 While the Highland Div was in Bedford in 1914/15 ( just 12 miles down the A6) IIRC the 7th RWF were in Rushden for a time in 1915.

[AMK]

Hi all, I wonder if anyone can shed any light on this mis-stamped and undated Wilkinson Pall Mall 1907 pattern bayonet? Aside from the "I" missing from the stamp, it is also completely devoid of acceptance stamps and has no crown. It has me stumped! 

[JMB1943]

Hello AMK,

Welcome to the GWF.

Certainly an unusual example of a Wilkinson.

While they often show poor stamping, with the crown being sometimes very faint, I have never seen the second “I” missing as on yours.

It makes me wonder if the blade at the ricasso has a very broad V-shape and the “I” fell just in that, so had no metal surface to impact.

As to a possible date, no earlier than 5 16 with the “PALL MALL” present.

It does at least have the X-bend test marking and one viewer’s stamp, so at least entered the inspection process.

Another jarring note is the (serial) number 656, which to my eyes is upside down and lacks a unit identifier.

All in all, a strange beast altogether.

Regards,

JMB

Edit: I think that with a bit of wishful thinking, the crown is just barely visible above 1907.

Edited 4 July by JMB1943
Add info

[AMK]

Thank you JMB for your thoughts. The serial doesn't look particularly "British" to my eye, in that it is not typical of the typeface I would expect to see. I was wondering about the unmarked Saudi Arabian batch that I've read about, could this be one such example? 

Edited 4 July by AMK

[JMB1943]

AWK,

What is this Saudi Arabian batch? …..The memo apparently didn’t reach me.

Regards,

JMB

[AMK]

I may have read incorrectly, bit I think when reading through this thread I saw mention of a batch found in Saudi Arabia devoid of most markings other than the Wilkinson stamp and a bend test stamp. That said, I've been trawling the entire internet trying to find information on this bayonet so I could have my wires crossed! 

[JMB1943]

AMK,

On the 2nd page of this thread a discussion of Iraqi-marked Wilkinson bayos is started by Trajan.

Was that the post ? That is the nearest I can find to Saudi.

Regards,

JMB

[shippingsteel]

This example appears to be a standard Wilkinson production bayonet that has failed to make it through the inspection process. Perhaps best termed a "commercial" bayonet it was not accepted into service due to some flaw, (possibly the vertical seam visible centre of blade both sides ricasso)

Wilkinson was a private contractor, so anything not accepted initially into British service (while still remaining fully functional) was then available to be later sold to any interested bidder. After the war much surplus was sold into foreign military forces, and likely where this ended up.

Cheers, SS 

[AMK]

Thanks SS, a "factory second" was my initial thought but I couldn't find any written evidence to back up that theory. The fact that you have suggested it to be a possibility is enough to convince me that it is indeed an example which for whatever reason didn't make it through the full round of inspections and was released to the commercial market (or pinched from the scrap bin!).

I'm glad it had provoked some discussion either way! Thanks for your input chaps.

[Dave66]

Found a new addition today, brought it because it was A….Cheap, and B….had an unscrubbed Pall Mall marking, 11 16.

Pics below,

Dave.

[JMB1943]

Dave,

It looks like a good, honest example; was it accompanied by a scabbard?

Isn’t it interesting how any given Patt. 07 (esp. a Wilkinson) will usually lack at least one, and often several, of the expected markings.

This is usually attributed to a combination of poor striking and over-zealous polishing.

Conversely, when you look at the Smiling Tiger bayonets for Siam that were produced by scrubbing out the original British markings you will regularly find that said markings have not been totally obliterated.

Regards,

JMB

 

[Dave66]

No scabbard I’m afraid JMB, but I did manage to have a move round once home, and given the 38 stamp I had a scabbard with some traces of ww2 era green paint in a 37 frog…yet another keeper!

Best wishes,

Dave.

Edited 20 September by Dave66

[Mk VII]

On 04/07/2023 at 15:15, AMK said:

Hi all, I wonder if anyone can shed any light on this mis-stamped and undated Wilkinson Pall Mall 1907 pattern bayonet? Aside from the "I" missing from the stamp, it is also completely devoid of acceptance stamps and has no crown. It has me stumped! 

 

 

 

Some years ago a batch of well-worn commercial Sht L-E's was imported, reportedly from Bahrain. All had numerals in this typeface stamped on (I think) the marking disc.  There were also bayonets similarly marked. 

[JMB1943]

The appearance in 5 ‘16 (and thereafter) of WILKINSON / PALL MALL on the ricasso led to the suggestion by a member that it was readily explained due to Wilkinson opening a second production line for the  Patt. 1907 bayonet at their showroom for officers in Pall Mall.

I had never subscribed to this theory because Pall Mall was a fashionable place; not the sort of area in London where factories would have been built in 1916.

It occurs to me, that had that been the case, there would have been two production lines, one their major factory in Acton , W. making Bayonets marked WILKINSON, and the second making bayos with the WILKINSON / PALL MALL stamp.

However, after 5 ‘16, don’t Bayonets marked WILKINSON-only disappear? I would be interested to see photos of any WILK-only Bayonets date-stamped after 5 ‘16.

This leads me to think that there never was a second production line.

Regards,

JMB