trajan Posted 1 March , 2019 Author Share Posted 1 March , 2019 I know, I know, I know - but it would mean raiding the holiday money... This is a Wilkinson thread, I know, but this is the pommel marking for what is an Enfield 1/12... It reads "6.N.? There are not too many regiments it might be - 6th Loyal North Lancs seems to fit best... Granddad was in the 5th... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyH Posted 1 March , 2019 Share Posted 1 March , 2019 (edited) Julian, Can I see an F, after the N? Mike. Edited 1 March , 2019 by MikeyH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 1 March , 2019 Author Share Posted 1 March , 2019 (edited) I wondered... I have opened a parallel thread - see https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/270348-unit-marked-for-6-north-lancs-p1907/ Unless I have missed something, then the only possible unit markings would be "6.N.L" for Loyal North Lancs, or "6.N.STF" for North Staffs - and I can't see a squiggle there for an 'S'... Edited 1 March , 2019 by trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 11 May , 2019 Author Share Posted 11 May , 2019 Nice new WILKINSON / PALL MALL scrubbed marked for the R.E. at: https://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?1091717-British-P1907-Wilkinson-Regimental-marking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 14 December , 2019 Author Share Posted 14 December , 2019 By chance (hey, free on a Saturday of kids and univ, class work for a chance!) I stumbled on an old thread by Lancs Fusilier: https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/159958-dating-1897-pattern-infantry-swords/?tab=comments#comment-1551357 in which he states that somebody has the Wilkinson archives! And he gives the contact details!!!!! wonder if an answer to the WILKINSON / PALL MALL conundrum might be found there? I don't have the time (or the spare cash for whatever fee!) to check it out... Anybody? Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWF1967 Posted 31 January , 2020 Share Posted 31 January , 2020 I thought I’d post my new find, and ask if anyone could identify the maker of the scabbed please. It had an inspection stamp on the leather but it has mostly worn away. The grip stamps are fairly clear, most on the blade, especially on the one side, are rubbed. There is a crescent shape mark on the handle but it may be damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave66 Posted 31 January , 2020 Share Posted 31 January , 2020 Great find GWF.....love those grip stamps. there is mention of WJH being W J Hill of Birmingham on this thread here....https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/231149-p07-scabbard-markings/?tab=comments#comment-2301240 Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWF1967 Posted 31 January , 2020 Share Posted 31 January , 2020 7 hours ago, Dave66 said: Great find GWF.....love those grip stamps. there is mention of WJH being W J Hill of Birmingham on this thread here....https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/231149-p07-scabbard-markings/?tab=comments#comment-2301240 Dave. Many thanks for the link Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DisasterDog Posted 14 January , 2023 Share Posted 14 January , 2023 1919 dates found by Lance on Gunboards: https://www.gunboards.com/threads/a-pair-of-unusual-wilkinsons.1235293/#post-11194083 “Wilkinson” is at the same height above the crosspiece, but I can’t tell if “Pall Mall” was scrubbed from from the one example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 14 January , 2023 Author Share Posted 14 January , 2023 1 hour ago, DisasterDog said: 1919 dates found by Lance on Gunboards: https://www.gunboards.com/threads/a-pair-of-unusual-wilkinsons.1235293/#post-11194083 That's certainly interesting! Thanks!!! They must have been rushing to complete the contract! Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyH Posted 28 January , 2023 Share Posted 28 January , 2023 (edited) My latest very recent aquisition, a Wilkinson which suffers from a clumsily struck date of manufacture, the month seems to be 5 overstruck on 1907, but no year visible. The Pall Mall line is more evident than on many other examples. The blade is in really good condition. The round stud scabbard is dated 1917 and marked J.W.B, which I believe is J.W.Brookes of Birmingham. Mike. Edited 28 January , 2023 by MikeyH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 28 January , 2023 Author Share Posted 28 January , 2023 Nice to see these ones are still turning up. Many years ago when I started this thread they were just oddities, e.g., as my dear old mate SS commented, On 26/01/2015 at 10:36, shippingsteel said: IThe Pall Mall stamping is just another P1907 maker's variation. ... The Pall Mall bayonets are nothing overly special, just another Wilkinson really. But that is clearly not the case with so many of these examples turning up, all with the second line entirely or almost scrubbed out... . Does anyone know where the Wilkison archive is? If we know where these are maybe someone, I (and/or JMB, of 'Smiling Tiger' fame'), can find an explanation. Probably a very simple one, just scrubbing out the lower PALL MARKING marking while fitting the crosspice /crossguard ...??? Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyH Posted 28 January , 2023 Share Posted 28 January , 2023 45 minutes ago, trajan said: Nice to see these ones are still turning up. Many years ago when I started this thread they were just oddities, e.g., as my dear old mate SS commented, But that is clearly not the case with so many of these examples turning up, all with the second line entirely or almost scrubbed out... . Does anyone know where the Wilkison archive is? If we know where these are maybe someone, I (and/or JMB, of 'Smiling Tiger' fame'), can find an explanation. Probably a very simple one, just scrubbing out the lower PALL MARKING marking while fitting the crosspice /crossguard ...??? Trajan Julian, The Royal Armouries hold some W.S.C. archive records, others are said to be 'held privately'. Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 28 January , 2023 Share Posted 28 January , 2023 The scrubbed out appearance of the Pall Mall stamping I think is simply a case of "it comes with the territory" ... As these were later war bayonets and hence had much higher survivability they were more prone to facing refurbishment during the inter-war period which would have involved some harsh cleaning and re-bluing. You do see many of these with post-war inspection dates and also with some of their original inspection markings and bend test X heavily scrubbed as well. Cheers, SS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 29 January , 2023 Author Share Posted 29 January , 2023 (edited) 7 hours ago, MikeyH said: ... The Royal Armouries hold some W.S.C. archive records, others are said to be 'held privately'. ... Thanks Mike, I have met and am in irregular contact with two of their curators , including the edged weapons' one. I was supposed to do their German bayonets before COVID came along, and hope to get there this year to do that and if so I will follow up this suggestion. IIRC, it is a descendant of the family that holds the bulk of the records - perhaps Mick Rose or Skennerton will know. They really should be in a nationnl archive, likewise the Mauser records... 6 hours ago, shippingsteel said: The scrubbed out appearance of the Pall Mall stamping I think is simply a case of "it comes with the territory" ... As these were later war bayonets and hence had much higher survivability they were more prone to facing refurbishment during the inter-war period which would have involved some harsh cleaning and re-bluing. You do see many of these with post-war inspection dates and also with some of their original inspection markings and bend test X heavily scrubbed as well. Thanks for this suggestion SS - already considered. The thing is that P.1907 bayonets were made to a fairly strictly regulated process regarding weight dimensions, etc. - read Ballard and Bennett Royal Armouries journal on the matter. It is odd that any refurbishing entailed scrubbing the second line only. JMB and I have seen a fair number of scrubbed bayonets (e.g., Bennett and Ballard, also in the Royal Armouries journal), and in many cases it involved scubbing almost all the makers mark as well as other marks not one part. BUT, in that case, all these bayonets were intended for the RAF, and this was clearly part of a regular sustained process of refurbishment before re-issue, often without - I stress - any post-GW inspection stamps. Trajan Edited 29 January , 2023 by trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyH Posted 23 March , 2023 Share Posted 23 March , 2023 (edited) I now have my most recent P1907 bayonet to hand. The 2 previous ricasso photos were from the auction description. I think that the state of preservation in exceptional, certainly the best of my admittedly small collection. The original finish is still present in most areas. It carries a refurb. date of 1919, the grips have been lightly sanded, with the inspectors marks still just visible. The finish to the metal scabbard parts is also still very good. The scabbard bears a J.W.B. stamp and 17, presumably for 1917. I have seen J.W.B. referenced as being a Birmingham company. A local company J.W.Brookes of Earls Barton, Northamptonshire was a contractor for army boots in the Great War, is it possible they also produced the leather scabbard? Footnote for JMB, the blade is sharpened for around 15" of its length and still retains a very keen edge. Mike. Edited 23 March , 2023 by MikeyH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMB1943 Posted 23 March , 2023 Share Posted 23 March , 2023 MikeyH, You possibly referenced me because of my comment that my dozen Patt. 07’s would not cut bread. Glad to see that you have found at least one that WILL cut bread; please keep it handy and in good shape, because you never know when I will come knocking……. Seriously, it does look to be in very good condition; I cannot make out a date, but the position of the “WILKINSON “ does make me think that this is a scrubbed “PALL MALL” one. I do not see JWB as a Birmingham maker of scabbards listed in Skennerton’s book. Regards, JMB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t.ryan Posted 23 March , 2023 Share Posted 23 March , 2023 JMB In the Great Britain section (manufacturers and sub contractors component parts) of Skennerton's latest book "The Broad Arrow Mk2" page 43 states JWB as John White & Sons (pre WW2). Cheers, TR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMB1943 Posted 23 March , 2023 Share Posted 23 March , 2023 TR, JWB = John White & Sons doesn’t seem to ring true; what does the B indicate, Birmingham? Regards, JMB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t.ryan Posted 24 March , 2023 Share Posted 24 March , 2023 JMB, It does not say anything about Birmingham but that could be, and I cannot see anything else there to compare it with. Cheers, TR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 24 March , 2023 Share Posted 24 March , 2023 It may be different but John Whites were a leather/boot and shoe concern in Rushden Northants where I grew up. I knew they were involved in boot production (obviously) but would be intrigued if they were involved in scabbards too Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyH Posted 24 March , 2023 Share Posted 24 March , 2023 11 hours ago, JMB1943 said: MikeyH, You possibly referenced me because of my comment that my dozen Patt. 07’s would not cut bread. Glad to see that you have found at least one that WILL cut bread; please keep it handy and in good shape, because you never know when I will come knocking……. Seriously, it does look to be in very good condition; I cannot make out a date, but the position of the “WILKINSON “ does make me think that this is a scrubbed “PALL MALL” one. I do not see JWB as a Birmingham maker of scabbards listed in Skennerton’s book. Regards, JMB JMB, See photo in my original post 28th Jan, only part of date to be seen is 5 for May, the year is unstruck. Yes "PALL MALL" is partially visible. Regards, Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyH Posted 27 March , 2023 Share Posted 27 March , 2023 (edited) On 24/03/2023 at 01:34, 4thGordons said: It may be different but John Whites were a leather/boot and shoe concern in Rushden Northants where I grew up. I knew they were involved in boot production (obviously) but would be intrigued if they were involved in scabbards too Chris Chris, With your local connection, you may be interested to see this image of the letterhead of W.J.Brookes of Earls Barton. In June 1917, they were making 500 pairs of boots per week for the British army, and were appealing to extend an exemption for an employee one Harold Cox, to the Wellingborough Tribunal. He was granted this until 12th August of that year Mike. Edited 27 March , 2023 by MikeyH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMB1943 Posted 27 March , 2023 Share Posted 27 March , 2023 MikeyH, This is actually W. J. Brookes, and I also cannot find a mention in Skennerton’s B&CB. Regards, JMB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyH Posted 27 March , 2023 Share Posted 27 March , 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, JMB1943 said: MikeyH, This is actually W. J. Brookes, and I also cannot find a mention in Skennerton’s B&CB. Regards, JMB JMB, Had transposed the inititals, W.J.Brookes did achieve a sort of fame in more recent times Google:- Kinky Boots...... Mike. Edited 27 March , 2023 by MikeyH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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