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trajan

WILKINSON / PALL MALL P.1907 bayonets

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auchonvillerssomme

I'm in the Sarge's good books, I only have 10 left, although I am fairly certain there a few more in the garage.

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trajan

... I could very easilly become a collector at this ... !!! ... The long haired General would kill me if I started buying something else, although my new rifles bayonet is an exception, (when I find a nice one)!

Yes, I have one of those superior officers also, although generally speaking we trade-off - boots and handbags against pointed things... Fortunately I usually manage (like Sawdoc) to slip them in to the flat on the qt and hide them in a drawer before she sees them, as otherwise the house would be overflowing with boots and handbags......

Looking forward to seeing your S.98 and wouldn't mind a gander at the Gew.98! BTW, useless fact that may be of interest - practical experience in the Boxer Revolution revealed that the S.98 was pretty-near useless at penetrating 'the thick winter clothing' of the Chinese...!!!

Trajan

Come to think of it, IIRC a fair few of these PALL MALL ones do look as if they may have been scrubbed to remove that line...

Took the chance to look at some others on this thread and elsewhere and in some cases the scrubbing seems to have been done as it was in the way of the crossguard...

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trajan

Another probable / certain one, which SS thought was possibly a 'repro' (I assume because of the scrubbing of the Pall Mall), at: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=166648&page=16(now locked) post 383....

Trajan

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JMB1943

Trajan,

Another quite early one (6 '16) for your list.

This appeared for sale recently, and is a good-looking example; the stampings are very crisp & the 'PALL MALL' is well above the cross-piece & no attempt has been made to scrub it out.

Regards,

JMB

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trajan

... Another quite early one (6 '16) for your list. ... This appeared for sale recently, and is a good-looking example; the stampings are very crisp & the 'PALL MALL' is well above the cross-piece & no attempt has been made to scrub it out.

Thanks, that is indeed an early one! Did you manage to download a photograph? Or where should I look for it, bearing in mind the photographs are soemtimes around for a while after the sale is completed...

Julian

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JMB1943

Julian,

I have sent a PM.

Regards,

JMB

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sawdoc34

I only have one pall mall example but its a 1940s dated iranian contract bayonet, will get weight etc if needed tho.

Aleck

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Terrylee

Here is a photo of one dated June 1916. It belongs to a friend of mine, a leading South African bayonet collector.

post-89541-0-52199200-1450912323_thumb.j

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trajan

Maybe time to crank this thread up again... This is one I keep forgetting to show, courtesy, IIRC, of our old friend Ogilwy...

post-69449-0-14995100-1452883583_thumb.j

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JMB1943

I am trying to keep tabs on the changeover date, by monitoring the disappearance of 'WILKINSON' & appearance of 'WILKINSON/PALL MALL'.

Currently, the latest I have for W only is 1 '16 certainly and (4?) '16 possibly; the earliest for WPM is 6 '16.

If anybody has additional info, please let us know.

Regards,

JMB

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depaor01

OK. Here's my contribution from my collection - an 03 18 Pall Mall with bend test and acceptance mark reissued in 1923... Everything from "bend test" onwards in this post is me winging it. I'd like to know if I'm correct!

Front:

post-42233-0-94906400-1452898150_thumb.j

Dave


Back:

post-42233-0-44604400-1452898288_thumb.j

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Lancashire Fusilier

OK. Here's my contribution from my collection - an 03 18 Pall Mall with bend test and acceptance mark reissued in 1923... Everything from "bend test" onwards in this post is me winging it. I'd like to know if I'm correct!

Dave,

Just as you said, a Pattern 1907 Sword Bayonet issued originally in March 1918, the Wilkinson, Pall Mall, maker's mark, and on the other side of the ricasso, the ' X ' blade bend test mark, 3 Inspector's Marks, a 1923 ' re-issue ' date mark, and the Government ownership ' Broad Arrow ' mark.

Regards,

LF

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depaor01

Thanks LF. I wasn't aware the others were inspectot's marks.

We continue to live and learn!

Dave

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Lancashire Fusilier

Thanks LF. I wasn't aware the others were inspectot's marks.

We continue to live and learn!

Dave

Dave,

The complete Inspector's Mark which can be seen ' crown/T8/E ' is made up of ' T8 ' being the individual Inspector's mark, and ' E ' being ' Enfield ', for the Royal Small Arms Factory at Enfield.

Regards,

LF

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Andrew Upton

I am trying to keep tabs on the changeover date, by monitoring the disappearance of 'WILKINSON' & appearance of 'WILKINSON/PALL MALL'.

Currently, the latest I have for W only is 1 '16 certainly and (4?) '16 possibly; the earliest for WPM is 6 '16.

If anybody has additional info, please let us know.

I have two Wilkinson bayonets in my possession, and both may be of interest to you:

http://postimg.org/image/3tq4oo2bn/full/

Wilkinson_bayonet_pic.jpg

The right is still very crisply marked, and clearly reads WILKINSON alone, with the date 5 '16, with a '28 refurbishment date to the rear.

The left has been very heavily polished in use, so the markings are less distinct, but do still appear to read WILKINSON alone, with the probable date 11 '18, also with a '20's refurbishment date to the rear. Whilst there is a gap below the Wilkinson, there are no remaining traces of Pall Mall if ever they were there.

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trajan

I have two Wilkinson bayonets in my possession, and both may be of interest to you:...

Thanks Andrew,

A bit too late here (22:00!) for me to study properly but a pound to a penny says the left one was a Pall Mall version.

Look at the position of the WILKINSON - set really high above the crossguard. Also, as you say, it has been heavily gone over (not an RAF one is it?). And, just a quick look suggests that the 'K' on that one is closer in shape to the 'K' on the PALL MALL's - look at the junction of the two arms in your two, they are different. Note also the angle of the upswept arm of the K on your left one relative to the bottom stroke of the L compared to the other. Yes, I know, a lot depends on how the stamps (=dies) were struck (different pressures, etc.), and different dies are involved but as in numismatics, die-linkage is something to bear in mind here. And looking back at, for example, the ones in posts 34 and 36 (thanks Depar01), the dies used in those for the WILKINSON look closer to yours on the left than to the one on the right. I could be imaging things, yes, and obviously side by side comparisons need to be done, but... Especially given how high the Wilkinson stamp is on your left one!

Julian

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Andrew Upton

Also, as you say, it has been heavily gone over (not an RAF one is it?). ...I could be imaging things, yes, and obviously side by side comparisons need to be done, but... Especially given how high the Wilkinson stamp is on your left one!

Neither has any regimental markings, just the usual manufacture/inspection/refurbishment dates. As I said, if there were Pall Mall marks on the 1918 one then they are totally gone, so I couldn't say for sure if it was just how the guy stamping the blade did Wilkinson a bit higher than usual or something else (though I agree the probable answer is it was supposed to be Pall Mall marked, and just incredibly lightly stamped, and subsequently polished off in the 1920's refurbishment).

The 5 '16 date on the other though does push the confirmed use of Wilkinson alone right up to the month before the earliest known sighting of a Wilkinson Pall Mall one, which would suggest the change took place most likely around the end of May/beginning of June 1916.

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Mickjam

I do not know if is relevent,but on page 190 of Skennertons British and Commonwealth Bayonets,it states wartime production figures By 1917 from Wilkingson sword co ltd,53 Pall Mall ,london SW1,as

514.500.

mIck

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trajan

I do not know if is relevent,but on page 190 of Skennertons British and Commonwealth Bayonets,it states wartime production figures By 1917 from Wilkingson sword co ltd,53 Pall Mall ,london SW1,as

514.500.

All is relevant given that most of us don't do this as a profession and so are likely to forget what might have been said before! You will find - with a diligent search - quite a few threads here that go back over details that sometimes get forgotten through lack of committed attention. In my own case, I had certainly forgotten what S&R said about the production of these, except that they began in mid-1917... :blush:

BTW, have you got any examples of these Pall Mall ones? The real clue seems to me to be with the 'blank' ones - in the absence of obvious scrubbing marks - the height of the 'WILKINSON' stamp on the ricasso. But, as I have said before, P.1907's are not really my thing (Cries of 'Shame, shame!' from the assembled company! :devilgrin: ), it was merely an observation of mine that inspired this thread! So, now, Mick, what have you got in the way of German Imperials.... A couple of nice rare unit-marked S.98/05's with high ears intact? :whistle:

Julian

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Mickjam

All is relevant given that most of us don't do this as a profession and so are likely to forget what might have been said before! You will find - with a diligent search - quite a few threads here that go back over details that sometimes get forgotten through lack of committed attention. In my own case, I had certainly forgotten what S&R said about the production of these, except that they began in mid-1917... :blush:

BTW, have you got any examples of these Pall Mall ones? The real clue seems to me to be with the 'blank' ones - in the absence of obvious scrubbing marks - the height of the 'WILKINSON' stamp on the ricasso. But, as I have said before, P.1907's are not really my thing (Cries of 'Shame, shame!' from the assembled company! :devilgrin: ), it was merely an observation of mine that inspired this thread! So, now, Mick, what have you got in the way of German Imperials.... A couple of nice rare unit-marked S.98/05's with high ears intact? :whistle:

Julian

Hi again Julian

The only German Bayonets i Own at Moment are a 1898 gewhr Soligen and a 1915 butcher.standard type.

Seen some of yours on the posts ,do not know if i dare start collecting them as well.

Regards

Mick

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JMB1943

P.07 WILK PALL MALL 5 '16.docx

This Wilkinson (5 '16) is currently for sale in the land down under and is marked 'PALL MALL', and together with Andrew Upton's 5 '16 Wilkinson ONLY example (post #40) clearly defines the change-over date as 5 '16.

Regards,

JMB

EDIT: As a follow-up to this, I would like to establish the latest RSAF, Enfield (EFD) P.07 bayonet

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trajan

attachicon.gifP.07 WILK PALL MALL 5 '16.docx

This Wilkinson (5 '16) is currently for sale in the land down under and is marked 'PALL MALL', and together with Andrew Upton's 5 '16 Wilkinson ONLY example (post #40) clearly defines the change-over date as 5 '16.

EDIT: As a follow-up to this, I would like to establish the latest RSAF, Enfield (EFD) P.07 bayonet

That is good to see - and with the PM part still perfectly visible as well. Thanks!

I don't have many EFD P.1907's, but I'll check what I have - although I probably sent you the data for the weights survey?

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JMB1943

Trajan,

No need to check; Yours from the weight survey were all not later than 1914.

Regards,

JMB

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trajan

And here is another Wilkie Pall Mall with the pall Mall scrubbed out - 07/17 so does not add to the dating of these that much... Reproduced here from a post by Frodo on GBF - http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?529209-fair-market-value

Odd, though, that the '7' of the '1907' was never properly impressed. SS somewhere drew attention to the 'scruffy' appearance of several of the later GW P.1907's, which works as a rule of thumb, but scruffy ones are found earlier also.

Julian

post-69449-0-31725500-1464933200_thumb.j post-69449-0-90944500-1464933210_thumb.j

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trajan

There is a (probably?/perhaps?) Iraqi-used example of  'WILKINSON / PALL MALL' with the 'PALL MALL' visible and a 1940 're-issue' mark at: http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?581825-wilkinson-1907-with-odd-markings&p=5121553#post5121553

 

It certainly has 'Arabic' numbers, but I don't know anything about any P/07's being issued to 'Iraq' and so I'll leave others to correct or verify that interpretation... I am guessing that this was a post-GW contract job, though, as there is no Crown / GR and - more to the point - no space between the '1907' and the 'WILKINSON' to add the original manufacture / issue date sequence of month and year.

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