Jump to content
The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

Understanding statement of services


Paulson
 Share

Recommended Posts

post-116631-0-81498100-1415100157_thumb.Hi

My father was invalided back from France in 1916 and was then transferred and posted several times between then and February 1919. I am trying to ascertain what he was doing at this time and the reason for the various moves. Can I get back to any more detailed records from the information I have below?

Paulson

Link to comment
Share on other sites

53rd (Young Soldier) Battalion
Up to 27 October 1917, this was known as 18th Young Soldier Battalion and had no regimental affiliation. Before that it had been 15th (Reserve) Battalion of the King's Royal Rifle Corps. A basic recruit training unit based at Northampton, it was part of 4th Reserve Brigade.

From Long Long Trail, top left of this page.

KRRC

5th and 6th (Reserve) Battalions
August 1914 : in Winchester. Depot/training units, they moved on mobilisation to Sheerness and remained in this area throughout the war. In 1918 the 6th Bn was at nearby Queenborough. Both were part of the Thames & Medway Garrison.

Would seem he was involved in training at home.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Your father's name would be of great assistance to us in answering this query :whistle:

As would the lines you've chopped off the top of his Statement of Services - that would reveal the regiment whose 11th, 6th battalions and Depot he served in before being transferred to the 16th Bn, Training Reserve.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the response. My father's name is Walter Silcock. I chopped the Statement of Services down to get the file down below 250kb. His regimental no. in the KRRC was R985. I have recently acquired his service file from the Army Personnel Centre and am now trying to make sense of it. I am quite happy to make any or all of the information I have received available to anyone who is interested and would be very grateful for any help but at the moment I don't understand the protocol of this site and what is acceptable to upload and to ask.

Paulson

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is his number and KRRC at the top of the sheet? Or is there another regiment?

As MBrockway says without knowing that it is impossible to say where he was posted and where from.

At this stage I would hazard a guess at KRRC based on service number. But could be totally wrong!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

John - from the other Topic, he was definitely in 11/KRRC before all these moves.

Paulson - if you have acquired his Service Record direct from the MoD as a blood descendant, than I believe you are free to post whatever you want to. The Pals will be very pleased to help decipher his record with you and although it's difficult to know where to start at first, you will find it will all start to make more sense quite quickly!

The Pals can also give tips on how to get files small enough to post without shrinking their physical dimensions!

As regards the protocol around what to ask - just go for it! If the Pals sense a genuine interest, we will usually bend over backwards to help!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here's the official announcement in the London Gazette of his commission as a Temporary 2/Lt in the KRRC effective 05 Feb 1919: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31204/supplement/2831

... and he relinquishes his temp commission on 14 Aug 1919 (presumably because he was demobilised) here: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31559/supplement/11743

Link to comment
Share on other sites

John - from the other Topic, he was definitely in 11/KRRC before all these moves

I am not aware of another Topic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

His medal index card (MIC) shows he entered France on 21 Jul 1915 as a Lance-Corporal with Service Number R/985.

That date is when 10th and 11th battalions landed in France, corroborating your earlier info that he was in 11/KRRC.

This meant he was entitled to the 1914-15 Star, which would have been engraved 'R/985 L/Cpl Walter Silcock, K R Rif C' or something very similar.

His entry on the 1914-15 Star medal roll is on M/2B, page 32, but there will not be any additional useful information there.

The MIC also seems to show he ended the war as a Corporal in the Bedfordshire Regiment with Service Number 44185, which suggests his Victory Medal and British War Medal will be inscribed '44185 Cpl Walter Silcock, Bedford Regt' or something very similar.

I must admit that does not match up with the service history you've posted above, so I'm rather puzzled by that!

His BWM/VM medal roll entry is K/2/104B/ 15, page 1030. It's worth getting hold of this as it should show ALL the regiments/battalions in which he served while overseas (but NOT those in Blighty), and that may well help with interpreting his service record if that's unclear. If his service record is clear (with help from the Pals) then it might not be worthwhile getting the medal roll checked.

Medal rolls with the M code letter were handled by the Winchester Record Office supporting the KRRC and Rifle Brigade. Those with the K code letter were handled by the Warley Record Office, which supported int. al. the Bedfordshire Regt.

(See here for a more detailed explanation: Record Offices & Regimental District Numbers)

He was demobbed into Class Z of the Army Reserve, though in Walter's case, this was to allow him to begin his officer cadet training.


John - from the other Topic, he was definitely in 11/KRRC before all these moves

I am not aware of another Topic.

Sorry John - indeed why should you be!

It's here: Abbreviations used on B103 Casualty forms

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the link.

This is the problem when posting roughly the same thing or a further extension to it in 2 different forums!

It is so much easier sometimes to let a thread move on and develop.

Keep asking away Paulson, and welcome.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the help and the information. The attachments are the records I have up to the end of the war. I would like to piece together as much of his military story as possible as it was something he never talked about when he was alive.

post-116631-0-77691400-1415191108_thumb.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

He was awarded the Military Medal, dated 22 Jan 1917

His name is listed on this page: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29912/supplement/835

... and here's the page at the top of the list with the explanation: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29912/supplement/835

More info on gallantry awards on the Mother Site here: http://www.1914-1918.net/soldiers/gallantry.html

It's listed in the 11/KRRC War Record in the 1917 KRRC Chronicle as being in the New Year Honours (p.138).

I cannot find anything more in the KRRC Chronicles and I'm afraid I don't have the 11/KRRC War Diary. With luck another Pal can have a check.

He had been repatriated on 26 Nov 1916 and in various hospitals at the Front with trench fever since 21 Oct 1916. Prior to that, 11/KRRC were involved in important actions at GUILLEMONT on 03 Sep 1916 and LES BOEUFS on 17 Sep 1916. His MM may have come from either of those, or it's possible it was decided to award it as a result of collective bravery over a number of actions. The London Gazette cites 'for bravery in the field'.

The Capture of Guillemont is particularly well covered here on the Forum.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One other thing, he was transferred to 53rd Rifle Brigade not the 53rd KRRC.

53rd (Young Soldiers) Rifle Brigade, formed 1/11/17, proceeded overseas 21/3/19, disbanded 31/10/19, formerly 18th Training Reserve.

Andy

Link to comment
Share on other sites

53rd (Young Soldier) Battalion

Up to 27 October 1917, this was known as 18th Young Soldier Battalion and had no regimental affiliation. Before that it had been 15th (Reserve) Battalion of the King's Royal Rifle Corps. A basic recruit training unit based at Northampton, it was part of 4th Reserve Brigade.

Andy - johnboy forgot to include Rifle Brigade, but the description he's pasted from the Mother Site is the one for 53/RB not 53/KRRC.

It was originally 15/KRRC of course :thumbsup:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm struggling to make sense of the Bedfordshire Regt references and the 'K' Code Warley Record Office BWM/VM medal roll ref on his MIC.

Nothing on Paulson's records seems to match, unless it relates to the 16th Bn., Training Reserve spell.

Any thoughts Pals?

post-20192-0-07176300-1415213340_thumb.j

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What is RH Rifle Corps?

I didn't see a posting to Bedf Reg either.

Would the MM be on MIC?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am trying to follow the posts that are appearing for which I am very grateful but I'm being left behind a bit by some of the detail. I'm not sure if this is relevant to the query about Bedfordshire but there is a final entry at the bottom of the first Statement of Services I put up which reads "Reenlisted in Beds and Herts R on 15/08/19 Army no. 5944051" I cropped this to keep the file size down and because it outside the 14/18 period. The service records I was sent go on for quite a number of years.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The reference to Bedford Regiment gives a different service number.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What is RH Rifle Corps?

..

Would the MM be on MIC?

'RH Rifle Corps' is actually 'KR Rifle Corps', which is of course King's Royal Rifle Corps - you're just misreading the handwriting! :thumbsup: Welcome to the world of KRRC non-standard abbreviations!

WRT to the MM being on the MIC, there is a separate MIC for the gallantry award here: http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D6219336

The campaign medals MIC's do often mention gallantry awards, but NOT always!

For info, here's the TNA catalogue entry of his campaign MIC I posted above so you can see it's a separate record from his MM MIC: http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D5154652)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am trying to follow the posts that are appearing for which I am very grateful but I'm being left behind a bit by some of the detail. I'm not sure if this is relevant to the query about Bedfordshire but there is a final entry at the bottom of the first Statement of Services I put up which reads "Reenlisted in Beds and Herts R on 15/08/19 Army no. 5944051" I cropped this to keep the file size down and because it outside the 14/18 period. The service records I was sent go on for quite a number of years.

15 Aug 1919 is the day after he relinquished his temporary commission in the KRRC (see higher up the Topic).

Did he re-enlist into the Beds as an officer or a private?

Could you possibly post a few more lines of his service record just so we can make sense of his MIC above?

Also do you have his actual medals?

There should be a Military Medal, a 1914-15 Star, a British war Medal and a Victory Medal. There may be additional medals if he continued to serve in the forces and also if he fought in WW2.

Don't be concerned about Forum rules and info outwith 1914-1918 - we are researching a Great War soldier and it will be perfectly acceptable to look at his wider service record, if you'd like us to do so.

We will be aiming to provide you with a simple chronology of his service with (hopefully clear) explanatory notes!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks MBrockway. I am learning as much as OP.

"Reenlisted in Beds and Herts R on 15/08/19 Army no. 5944051"

The above is puzzling me as his number for Beds Reg on his MIC is shown as a 5 digit number. If the last named regiment on his MIC is the one he was discharged from I suppose he could have reenlisted the same day but as it is also the day after he relinquished his temporary commission in the KRRC

should KRRC be shown on his MIC as last regiment?

If I am interpereting the 7 digit number correctly. this would not have been allocated until at the earliest 1920.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks MBrockway. I am learning as much as OP.

"Reenlisted in Beds and Herts R on 15/08/19 Army no. 5944051"

The above is puzzling me as his number for Beds Reg on his MIC is shown as a 5 digit number. If the last named regiment on his MIC is the one he was discharged from I suppose he could have reenlisted the same day but as it is also the day after he relinquished his temporary commission in the KRRC

should KRRC be shown on his MIC as last regiment?

I'm puzzling too.

I'm not sure whether the MICs recorded the unit a man was in on the day of the Armistice, or whether it used the unit he was demobilized out from. November 11th 1918 was technically only a cease fire and a lasting peace was by no means certain. That's why I have asked paulson if the family have the actual medals - we can then get the inscriptions.

In this case, it looks like he went on to serve as a professional soldier into the 1920's, so the MIC may merely be recording his new regiment to keep track of his medals Record Office.

Then and again though, the BWM/VM medal roll reference begins with a 'K', not an 'M', so it is definitely not the KRRC medal roll.

And we still have the issue of the Beds service numbers not matching!

All the same, I think we're quite close to getting the final chronology sorted out now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have tried to find men with a 5 digit number beginning 441 in Beds Reg using Geoffs site and after 2300 I have found none. I was hoping to find some +/- 200 which might have helped with a date ie take the nearest number to his with the earliest death date.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...