Lummox Posted 16 October , 2014 Share Posted 16 October , 2014 As I understand the small arms arsenal in 1914 would be SMLE's for the British, Mausers for the Germans, Webley MkIV (.38) and Mk VI (.455) for us, Luger 9mm them, Vickers for us Maxims for them. Question...did we have The Lewis gun in 1914? Or did that come in with the Americans? Were Colt Government .45 1911 used in 1914 or indeed at anytime? If so presumably brought in with the Americans? thanks Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 16 October , 2014 Share Posted 16 October , 2014 Lewis gun was accepted for service in October 1915, so not around except as prototypes in 1914. Webley Mk.IV .38 wasn't in WW1 - it was designed for WW2 but only produced when Enfield couldn't make enough of their in-house design - but there were .455s also designated Mk.IV, although I doubt there were any interchangeable components with the .38. Some .45 1911s were privately purchased by British officers in early WW1 and there were some manufactured in .455 Webley Self-Loading calibre (not interchangeable with either .45 ACP of .455 revolver ball) - I think these were held in WD stock, but still privately purchased by individuals. It's a great shame that TonyE's no longer with us - he'd've put you right on all these questions to the limit of currently-available information. Regards, MikB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 16 October , 2014 Share Posted 16 October , 2014 Britain was still mainly equipped with Maxim guns in 1914 as production of the Vickers was initially very limited. A decision to evaluate the Lewis had been taken but it had not yet been adopted. The Americans did not bring the Lewis as a dispute within the US Army and with Col Lewis caused the US procurement authorities to reject the weapon. The overwhelming majority of Lewis guns used in WW1 were manufactured by BSA in Birmingham and began to be introduced into the British army in 1915. The Belgian army used Belgian made Lewis guns in 1914. Some British Volunteer units (volunteer battalions and some yeomanry) were equipped with air cooled Maxims or Colt light machine guns in 1914* but these were replaced with either Lewis or Light Hotchkiss guns later * Privately purchased Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lummox Posted 16 October , 2014 Author Share Posted 16 October , 2014 Brilliant thanks chaps, starting filming very soon wanted to get the weapons right! What about the Germans? Lugers? 1914? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 16 October , 2014 Share Posted 16 October , 2014 Brilliant thanks chaps, starting filming very soon wanted to get the weapons right! What about the Germans? Lugers? 1914? Yes, it was the P.'08 to them. The DWM ones - if not others too, if there were any - had the date engraved in the top of the receiver, so don't you go filming a 1916 example in a 1914 scene... be sure your sins will find you out! Or someone here will. Regards, MikB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 16 October , 2014 Share Posted 16 October , 2014 Yes, it was the P.'08 to them. The DWM ones - if not others too, if there were any - had the date engraved in the top of the receiver, so don't you go filming a 1916 example in a 1914 scene... be sure your sins will find you out! Or someone here will. Regards, MikB It would seem that most NCOs, gunners and drivers in the field still had M79 or M83 revolvers as production of the P08 was not sufficiently up to speed to replace them Also worth remembering that British Maxims had a tripod mounting but German Maxims had the sled mounting (unless they were German Navy which also used a tripod) And if you are including 2nd line troops then on both sides many had older weapons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lummox Posted 16 October , 2014 Author Share Posted 16 October , 2014 heres my attempt at making a Vickers....its not finished yet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lummox Posted 16 October , 2014 Author Share Posted 16 October , 2014 I've already changed the ammo belt to a canvas one! The tripod is almost finished now too, this is it in basic form without all the "trimmings" to make it look more realistic. It will be used in our filming Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 16 October , 2014 Share Posted 16 October , 2014 The Maxim had a smooth water jacket but the Vickers one was fluted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 16 October , 2014 Share Posted 16 October , 2014 On Rifles: A fairly significant chunk of the BEF in 1914 was armed with Charger Loading Lee-Enfields ("Long Lees") as opposed to SMLEs. This was particularly true among Territorial Force battalions. These remained common on the front line until early 1916. I know less in detail about this, but while much of the German army would have been armed with the Gew 98 there would have been a significant number of Gew 88s in the mix. Some units (cavalry etc) would have been armed with the shorter 98AZ(98a) Carbine I assume as they are not mentioned you are not interested in the French/Belgians/etc Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lummox Posted 16 October , 2014 Author Share Posted 16 October , 2014 Not at the moment, the first short film we are doing is about the Christmas Truce 1914 see post below... http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=219175 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 16 October , 2014 Share Posted 16 October , 2014 Well having just had a quick browse of the photos of the truce - very few weapons appear in the images (understandably) so you would probably need to examine which part of the truce and which specific units you are portraying to try and determine which version of the rifle they were armed with. As a general rule of thumb (subject to exceptions of course) I would suggest, as above, that TF battalions may well have been armed with CLLEs. Chris Edit: For example: here are the 6th Gordons leaving for France in Nov 1914 - armed with CLLEs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 16 October , 2014 Share Posted 16 October , 2014 On Rifles: A fairly significant chunk of the BEF in 1914 was armed with Charger Loading Lee-Enfields ("Long Lees") as opposed to SMLEs. This was particularly true among Territorial Force battalions. These remained common on the front line until early 1916. I know less in detail about this, but while much of the German army would have been armed with the Gew 98 there would have been a significant number of Gew 88s in the mix. Some units (cavalry etc) would have been armed with the shorter 98AZ(98a) Carbine I assume as they are not mentioned you are not interested in the French/Belgians/etc Chris All the German regulars and most of the reserve were issued with the Gew 98 as was most of the Landwehr. Those in the reserve and Landwehr not so equipped had the Gew 88/05 which was a version of that older rifle converted to use a charger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 16 October , 2014 Share Posted 16 October , 2014 All the German regulars and most of the reserve were issued with the Gew 98 as was most of the Landwehr. Those in the reserve and Landwehr not so equipped had the Gew 88/05 which was a version of that older rifle converted to use a charger Are you suggesting there were no carbine/short rifles in the mix? even in the cavalry? I would find that very surprising. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 16 October , 2014 Share Posted 16 October , 2014 German cavalry certainly used a carbine which was, I believe, a cut-down version of the standard issue rifle. That was one of the factors which made them somewhat ineffective in a fire fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 16 October , 2014 Share Posted 16 October , 2014 Are you suggesting there were no carbine/short rifles in the mix? even in the cavalry? I would find that very surprising. Chris I was talking about infantry which I thought was obvious from the context Carbines were carried by Cavalry,cyclists. train battalions and most other railway and transport troops mainly 98 AZ but with some S84/98 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 16 October , 2014 Share Posted 16 October , 2014 It would seem that most NCOs, gunners and drivers in the field still had M79 or M83 revolvers as production of the P08 was not sufficiently up to speed to replace them Also worth remembering that British Maxims had a tripod mounting but German Maxims had the sled mounting (unless they were German Navy which also used a tripod) And if you are including 2nd line troops then on both sides many had older weapons I trust you can see my confusion... I see references to gunners, drivers, and the German Navy here too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 16 October , 2014 Share Posted 16 October , 2014 I trust you can see my confusion... I see references to gunners, drivers, and the German Navy here too Given that I was answering your post on rifles I find it difficult to believe that you were really confused but who knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lummox Posted 16 October , 2014 Author Share Posted 16 October , 2014 Shortening the barrel causes loss of fps and ftlbs! OK close up but dramatic at distance.... P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 16 October , 2014 Share Posted 16 October , 2014 Wow....so I was pretending to be confused? To what end? You will note that in my post I also mentioned Cavalry and Carbines... to which you responded definitively that "All the German regulars and most of the reserve were issued with the Gew 98...." I was simply seeking clarification Thank you for providing that. On the matter of the 98AZ: just for clarification: These were produced as carbines they were not (usually) "cut down" from rifles (although this did happen post war). There was an earlier Model 98a Carbine which had a shorter barrel and apparently did have a vicious recoil and muzzle blast. The 98AZ lengthened this slightly to "reduce recoil and muzzle blast to acceptable levels" (Ball, 2006 Military Mausers p 178). Ball claims that despite the German nomenclature this means it is "actually a short rifle". The same source goes on to say, confirming but extending Centurion's observation that "[W]hen war broke out in 1914, the Model 98AZ Carbine was carried by the cavalry, foot artillery, bicyclists, riflemen, sharpshooters, pioneers, telegraphists, telephonists, and air, ship and motor transport units" (ibid) Edit: For those who have maintained an interest here is the cast list The CLLE (although this is an Indian subvariant without the typical foresight protector wings or rearsight adjustment wheels) The SMLE MkIII* (post 1915 in 1914 many ShtLE's in France would have been MkI or MkIII) The GEW 88/05 The GEW 98 The Kar 98AZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lummox Posted 16 October , 2014 Author Share Posted 16 October , 2014 Excellent work Old Boy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 16 October , 2014 Share Posted 16 October , 2014 Not at the moment, the first short film we are doing is about the Christmas Truce 1914 see post below... http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=219175 Most units still had the old Maxim at that point, I do believe ? The term "Maxim" may mislead. It was, indeed, the name of a company, but it is also descriptive of any gun utilising the Maxim operating system. The Vickers can, quite accurately be described as a "Maxim." There were some design changes - principally the inversion of the toggle lock - which made the iconic Vickers a little less bulky but it still had a Maxim action. I am sorry to sound like a party pooper Lummox, but it is an offence in UK to import, sell or manufacture(but not to simply possess) a "realistic" imitation firearm. This is not absolute, and there are defences within the relevant legislation, one of which is for use in film/theatrical productions. You probably qualify, but don't sell it when you've finished ! If you already know this, forgive my intrusion. The ammunition belt is feeding from the wrong side in your second image - and don't wear a tin hat in the film !. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lummox Posted 16 October , 2014 Author Share Posted 16 October , 2014 Point taken re the gun. Yep the ammo fed from the right hand side! We did have steel helmets in 1914 didn't we?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bombadier Posted 16 October , 2014 Share Posted 16 October , 2014 We did have steel helmets in 1914 didn't we?? No. Steel helmets didn't come in until 1915 1916 Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lummox Posted 16 October , 2014 Author Share Posted 16 October , 2014 ******....what will I need for the Brits in 1914? I've got Picklehaubs for the Germans.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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