Who had what weapons in 1914?

[RobL]

Service dress caps - the stiff variety, not the late war soft versions with stitched peaks

[Steven Broomfield]

Am I right in thinking that British cavalry had the Vickers in 1914, having received it before the lower classes?

[centurion]

Am I right in thinking that British cavalry had the Vickers in 1914, having received it before the lower classes?

I doubt it - Production was so limited that there just weren't enough - full stop. A decision had already been taken that the cavalry would be equipped with the light Hotchkiss but is also doubtful if they had any except possibly one or two for trial purposes by then as the French were too pressed to supply and British production was not yet established. Some Yeomanry units had purchased either air cooled Maxims or Colt air cooled guns

[centurion]

Most units still had the old Maxim at that point, I do believe ?

The term "Maxim" may mislead. It was, indeed, the name of a company, but it is also descriptive of any gun utilising the Maxim operating system. The Vickers can, quite accurately be described as a "Maxim." There were some design changes - principally the inversion of the toggle lock - which made the iconic Vickers a little less bulky but it still had a Maxim action.

The ammunition belt is feeding from the wrong side in your second image - and don't wear a tin hat in the film !.

The Maxim guns produced in Germany, Russia and Belgium were essentially under licence from Vickers Maxim, There were other guns using the Maxim mechanism that were not called Maxim so in this case Maxim had a very specific meaning

There were Vickers with a feed from that side but these were for aircraft use.

[centurion]

******....what will I need for the Brits in 1914? I've got Picklehaubs for the Germans....

Not all Germans wore Picklehaubs for example many Jager Battalions wore shakos and for the truce many soldiers would be wearing the feldmutz (the field cap)

[dman]

and the German Navy here too

German Naval units were equipped with Gew 98 and P08 pistols - the number and type based on ship's class

Battleships would have up to 400 rifles and appropriate number of pistols (also probably some Maxim guns for landing operations)

Submarines - only some pistols

The Gew 98 were taken away in fall of 1914 and replaced by captured Russian Moisin Nagants

[Stoppage Drill]

******....what will I need for the Brits in 1914? I've got Picklehaubs for the Germans....

SD caps, but woolly hats and balaclavas were in common use in the winter of 1914.

[Steven Broomfield]

I doubt it - Production was so limited that there just weren't enough - full stop. A decision had already been taken that the cavalry would be equipped with the light Hotchkiss but is also doubtful if they had any except possibly one or two for trial purposes by then as the French were too pressed to supply and British production was not yet established. Some Yeomanry units had purchased either air cooled Maxims or Colt air cooled guns

Ah: here's a thing.

Volume 7 of Anglesey, page 64, outlining the establishment of the Cavalry Division which went to France in 1914: "The regimental machine gun squadron with two Vickers guns had twenty-five men and two officers. The British cavalry regiments were the first units to receive the new Vickers guns in place of the Maxim which was all the infantry had to start the war with".

On the subject of the Hotchkiss, Anglesey is sadly reticent, but Lumley (History of the 11th Hussars) states that Hotchkiss guns arrived in February 1916, on the removal of the Vickers' to Brigade Machine Gun Squadrons.

As Anglesey doesn't mention Hotchkiss guns, can you let us know the source of the information that the decision had been taken in August 1914 to replace the Vickers with the Hotchkiss? It seems a long time (18 months) for the decision to be implemented.

[centurion]

Ah: here's a thing.

Volume 7 of Anglesey, page 64, outlining the establishment of the Cavalry Division which went to France in 1914: "The regimental machine gun squadron with two Vickers guns had twenty-five men and two officers. The British cavalry regiments were the first units to receive the new Vickers guns in place of the Maxim which was all the infantry had to start the war with".

On the subject of the Hotchkiss, Anglesey is sadly reticent, but Lumley (History of the 11th Hussars) states that Hotchkiss guns arrived in February 1916, on the removal of the Vickers' to Brigade Machine Gun Squadrons.

As Anglesey doesn't mention Hotchkiss guns, can you let us know the source of the information that the decision had been taken in August 1914 to replace the Vickers with the Hotchkiss? It seems a long time (18 months) for the decision to be implemented.

I didn't say that nobody had received the Vickers but there were simply too few to replace the maxims except in a few instances either in the cavalry or the infantry. This has already been discussed on this forum. With regard to the Hotchkiss see Superiority of Fire and also The Book of the Machine Gun (1916). The problem with the latter as I already indicated was that French had no spare capacity to supply Britain with a modified gun taking British rounds and it took time for production capacity to be established in Britain - production lines can take time to set up so a lead time of this length between taking the decision and guns rolling off in adequate numbers does not seem unreasonable.

[dman]

The Colt- Browning 1895 machine (aka Potato Digger from the loading lever under the barrel) were used by some Canadian units

"The M1895/14 Colt-Browning saw use in France by some Canadian infantry formations. Deploying to France in 1915, the 21st Canadian Light Infantry Battalion used .303-caliber M1895/14 machine guns in combat. These guns saw significant combat but were soon replaced by Vickers machine guns. They were not taken out of combat however, but were instead given to equip formations of the Belgian Exile Army. The French also tested the Colt and some were used in early aircraft for testing. Additional Colt guns were sent to the Russians, who used them extensively."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1895_Colt-Browning_machine_gun

[centurion]

The gun used by the Canadians was actually the M1915 which was an improvement on the Colt M1895 and developed by the Canadian ordinance authorities to have improved cooling, a lighter tripod and changes to the breech to allow it to be charged from he rear. This model was later used by some US Army units as the M1917. It was also supplied to Russia in 1915, Some British volunteer units had made private purchases of the M1895 (see my earlier post).as early as the South African War and some may still have been around in 1914 However some sources suggest that they may have experienced issues in changing the barrel

[Lummox]

felt caps?

[Steven Broomfield]

I didn't say that nobody had received the Vickers but there were simply too few to replace the maxims except in a few instances either in the cavalry or the infantry. This has already been discussed on this forum. With regard to the Hotchkiss see Superiority of Fire and also The Book of the Machine Gun (1916). The problem with the latter as I already indicated was that French had no spare capacity to supply Britain with a modified gun taking British rounds and it took time for production capacity to be established in Britain - production lines can take time to set up so a lead time of this length between taking the decision and guns rolling off in adequate numbers does not seem unreasonable.

What you said was that you doubted the cavalry had the Vickers; I just managed to find out that you were right regarding the infantry but that the cavalry were using it. You really shouldn't be so spiky.

Thanks for the other references; I will track them down.

felt caps?

Not personally but I have handled the odd helmet.

[Stoppage Drill]

The gun used by the Canadians was actually the M1915 which was an improvement on the Colt M1895 and developed by the Canadian ordinance authorities to have improved cooling, a lighter tripod and changes to the breech to allow it to be charged from he rear. This model was later used by some US Army units as the M1917. It was also supplied to Russia in 1915, Some British volunteer units had made private purchases of the M1895 (see my earlier post).as early as the South African War and some may still have been around in 1914 However some sources suggest that they may have experienced issues in changing the barrel

Wasn't the M1915 simply an American built Vickers chambered for 30-06 ?

The M1917 was a very different gun, and was developed into the long-lived air-cooled M1919.

How can you charge a breech, other than from the rear, unless you are frontstuffing a muzzleloader ?

Not personally but I have handled the odd helmet.

Bold.

[centurion]

Wasn't the M1915 simply an American built Vickers chambered for 30-06 ?

The M1917 was a very different gun, and was developed into the long-lived air-cooled M1919.

How can you charge a breech, other than from the rear, unless you are frontstuffing a muzzleloader ?

Bold.

Ask John Walter who wrote Machine Guns of two World Wars

[Stoppage Drill]

Am I right in thinking that British cavalry had the Vickers in 1914, having received it before the lower classes?

Yes, but not the Yeomanry, apparently. I note that 3 County of London (Sharpshooters) kicked off with two privately purchased Maxims.

[centurion]

What you said was that you doubted the cavalry had the Vickers; I just managed to find out that you were right regarding the infantry but that the cavalry were using it. You really shouldn't be so spiky.

t.

No I didn't I answered your entire sentence

"Am I right in thinking that British cavalry had the Vickers in 1914, having received it before the lower classes?"

And I still doubt that you are right, some cavalry units may have got the new gun but so also may some infantry and it had nothing to do with class distinction - please don't put words in my mouth

[Stoppage Drill]

Ask John Walter who wrote Machine Guns of two World Wars

Try explaining.

No I didn't I answered your entire sentence

"Am I right in thinking that British cavalry had the Vickers in 1914, having received it before the lower classes?"

And I still doubt that you are right, some cavalry units may have got the new gun but so also may some infantry and it had nothing to do with class distinction - please don't put words in my mouth

Edited 17 October , 2014 by Keith Roberts
personal comment removed.

[centurion]

Yes, but not the Yeomanry, apparently. I note that 3 County of London (Sharpshooters) kicked off with two privately purchased Maxims.

See my earlier posts - most likely air cooled Maxims - much more suitable for cavalry and (according to Vickers Maxim's catalogue), about half the price These and the Colt were purchased by a number of volunteer units

[keithmroberts]

Enough. All concerned please behave. There is sufficient space for posts to contain clear explanations, with no "attitude" and no personal point scoring or sarcasm.

Keith Roberts

[Lummox]

Sooooo...

for my 1914 Christmas truce scene Ill have the Germans in Pickelhaubs and the Brits in.....???

[Beerhunter]

The .455 Webley Mk.VI Service revolver did not arrive until 1915 The British Army went to war with a mixture of earlier Webleys like the Mkl.IV and the Mk.V. BTW one should, not confuse the Mk.IV .455 Webley Service revolver with the .38 Webley Police and Military revolver. The latter is completely different gun and was not introduced until 1929. Colt Government Model pistols, in both .45 ACP and .455 were bought by the UK government to supplement supplies of Webleys. The UK Government also bought Smith & Wesson Hand Ejectors (both models) in .455 as well.

The Germans did indeed use a licensed built Maxim Gun and the British the Vickers, which was in fact a modified (better) Maxim design. (Some units e.g Indian Army had not received their Vickers and so went to war with Maxims.)

The German Rifle was (mostly) the Gewehr 98 and (again mostly) the Pistole 08 but some would have still been equipped with Reich Revolvers. Lots of second standards were also issued such as the 7.63mm Mauser C96. Later in the War C96s were chambered for 9mm Parabellum cartridge.

The Lewis gun did not turn up with the Americans, they used the French Chauchat - when they arrived. (Their medium MG was the Colt-Browning M1917.) Although Isaac Lewis was indeed an American it was BSA that made them first but they did not enter service in any numbers until 916. Later in the war, Savage made Lewis guns but they were for aircraft use.

To supplement supplies of SMLEs (although they were never needed at the front) the UK government also bought P14 rifles from Winchester, Remington and Eddystone. In 1917 the US Government bought the essentially the same rifles in 30-06 calibre - the M1917.

Next time you are in a Military Museum, see if they have a touch screen system that contains the package "Great War Small Arms". (Modesty forbids saying who wrote it.)

Edited 20 October , 2014 by Beerhunter

[Khaki]

The German Rifle was (mostly) the Gewehr 98 and (again mostly) the Pistole 08 but some would have still been equipped with Reich Revolvers. Lots of second standards were also issued such as the 7.63mm Mauser C96. Later in the War C96s were chambered for 9mm Parabellum cartridge.

The Gewehr 88 was used in large numbers as well

khaki

[centurion]

The Gewehr 88 was used in large numbers as well

khaki

But mainly by 2nd and 3rd line troops

[Stoppage Drill]

The Gewehr 88 was used in large numbers as well

khaki

One is often warned not to shoot 7.92x57JS from a commission rifle, so presumably old-style ammunition was provided for those troops equipped with G88s ?