Who had what weapons in 1914?

[martin_sole]

Sooooo...

for my 1914 Christmas truce scene Ill have the Germans in Pickelhaubs and the Brits in.....???

The "famous" 1914 truce photo shows the majority of Germans in Feldmuetze caps

Brits in stiff Service Dress caps.

balaclavas all round

[Lummox]

so were Colt Government 45s used by the Brits as early as 1914? That would be handy as I have 2 of those!

We start filming 8th November The Christmas Day truce!

[Beerhunter]

so were Colt Government 45s used by the Brits as early as 1914? That would be handy as I have 2 of those!

I very much doubt if any were on issue that early. Although some British Officers DID purchase their own (As they did with many other non-standard weapons, remember Churchill's C96?), they would have been few and far between and so to be on the safe side, I would avoid using them.

Edited 24 October , 2014 by Beerhunter

[Mark Finneran]

Not 1914 but here is a view of the fluted water jacket for the Vickers. However if you insist on having a British MG in your film you had best alter your model into a maxim.

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[Mark Finneran]

Here is an early German MG08 crew, although I do not know when the spiked helmet cover was introduced. These were definitely in the German line right at the beginning so for authenticity you would do no wrong having one of these!

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[gew98]

All the German regulars and most of the reserve were issued with the Gew 98 as was most of the Landwehr. Those in the reserve and Landwehr not so equipped had the Gew 88/05 which was a version of that older rifle converted to use a charger

I heartily disagree. Many german regular units still had gew88's.... especially on the ost front. There was a huge mix of 88's and 98's in units that fought at tanneburg to include pioneer batts & companies. The germans used very few charger converted gew88's... the largess of these were sent to turkey . As a collector it is quite scarce to find a straight german used gew88 modified for the mauser charger...very scarce indeed. I have seen one personally and know of an 88/14 version I put a friend onto years ago...and both had mismatch bolts. In 1914 kar98a's were not around in large numbers. Production ramped up considerably in late 1915 and by late 1917 more kar98a's were being produced than gew98 rifles. There was a large reserve of gew98's in store in Barvaria and the government made the Bavarians release these in 1914/15 to all units heading to the front , to which the Barvarians were very reluctant to do but nonetheless did. I have a 1913 Amberg gew98 marked to a prussian regiment.... which some thought no way. But then I supplied the pics of the corroded disc in place before I gently cleaned off the corrosion. Then Storz's book came about and detailed this story.

[gew98]

so were Colt Government 45s used by the Brits as early as 1914? That would be handy as I have 2 of those!

We start filming 8th November The Christmas Day truce!

I'd wager more canadians came to france with private purchase colt gov't models and sturdy Smith and colt wheelguns.

[gew98]

One is often warned not to shoot 7.92x57JS from a commission rifle, so presumably old-style ammunition was provided for those troops equipped with G88s ?

All german used gew88's had the S patronen mod to the chambers... allowing them to safely use the S patronen round of 1903. The problem arises with gew88 and kar88's when people use sS patronen and many many gew88's sold surplus before WW1 did not have the chamber mod which would be problematic wiht the higher pressure S and sS patronen. In the past 15 years gobs of south American used gew88's were imported into the US and these often have czech made replacement barrels with the really tight .318 bore dimensions usually only encountered in european sporting arms chambered for the 88 patrone of first pattern. The germans found within the first two years of the gew88 issue the .318 bore caused alot of overpresure problems coupled with smokelss powder and bullet jacket fouling. They went to nominally .320/.321 bores in short order and never looked back. The germans did have alot of patronen 88 on hand in storage loaded in mannlicher clips. Hence they decided to supply the modified to mauser chargers to turkey along with gew98's with all ammunition loaded in mauser chargers to simplify supplying their ally. Also note all throughout the war patronen 88 was in demand by MG troops as it had batter long range characteristics then the lighter S patronen service loading . There are more than a couple pics of abandoned MG's with belted 88 Patronen in them. One famous one comes to mind taken by an AEF photographer of a dead german gunner in a foxhole with an 08/15 with belted 88 patronenstill loaded n the peice.

[Steven Broomfield]

Am I right in thinking that British cavalry had the Vickers in 1914, having received it before the lower classes?

Unfortunately cent is no longer among us, it seems, but if he does still drop by, I can say that I discovered an entry in the Digest of Service of the 10th Royal Hussars for a date in July, 1914 (I can't recall the exact date, sadly), to the effect that they took delivery of two of the "new Vickers guns" for the MG Troop. At the time they were stationed in Potchefstroom (in South Africa, in case you wondered).

If a regiment based somewhere like the back end of SA got them in July '14, it is probably safe to assume home-based regiments already had them, I think.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Not 1914 but here is a view of the fluted water jacket for the Vickers. However if you insist on having a British MG in your film you had best alter your model into a maxim.

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That particular photograph, was not taken from a film ( movie ).

That photograph is from a series of photographs taken of troops from the 24th Motor Machine Gun Battalion at their Camp at Dieval on 12th June, 1918.

They are equipped with Clyno 744 c.c. twin-cylinder motorcycles with sidecars, which were fitted with Vickers Machine Guns.

Here are 2 more photographs of the 24th Motor Machine Gun Battalion with their Vickers Machine Guns at their Camp at Dieval, also taken on 12th June, 1918.

Regards,

LF

2

[Steven Broomfield]

Wonderful pictures; thanks to both of you for the contribution.

Incidentally, would it be Motor machine Gun "Battery"? (I'm happy to be wrong). I also notice the men are all wearing gaiters or leggings (leather?), rather than puttees.

[trajan]

Here are 2 more photographs of the 24th Motor Machine Gun Battalion with their Vickers Machine Guns at their Camp at Dieval, also taken on 12th June, 1918.

Aha - there's at least one chappie there with what looks like an attached helmet badge! I thought it was only the higher ranks who affected those?

Trajan

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Wonderful pictures; thanks to both of you for the contribution.

Incidentally, would it be Motor machine Gun "Battery"? (I'm happy to be wrong). I also notice the men are all wearing gaiters or leggings (leather?), rather than puttees.

Steven,

Originally, there were Motor Machine Gun Companies and Batteries, however, by the time those photographs were taken in June 1918, the designation was Motor Machine Gun Battalions.

As to fabric Puttees, they could easily have become entangled in the motorcycles chain drives etc. so the leather leggings were much more suitable for motorcycle use.

Regards,

LF

[Steven Broomfield]

LF: thanks again.

[Khaki]

Isn't that an entrenching 'helve' in a bayonet frog on the belt of the driver/rider in photo post #60, why would that be??

khaki

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Isn't that an entrenching 'helve' in a bayonet frog on the belt of the driver/rider in photo post #60, why would that be??

khaki

khaki,

The Clyno Motorcycle was typically used to transport the troops and their machine guns to the battle area, on arriving at that area the troops would then leave their motorcycles and carry their machine guns into action. Once at the battle area, the motorcycle troops could/would still need their entrenching tool to dig-in if required.

Regards,

LF

[trenchtrotter]

1. Re cap badge on helmet. He is a warrant officer not that that makes a difference. ORs also badged helmets but it was never officially approve of as it compromised the shells strength. Photos can be seen to show it did occur though.

2. Re the helve handle in the frog. This was the norm for 08 or 14 webbing in pistol order. They were armed with pistols so did not need bayonets and as such had no helve holder on their webbing so they stuck it in the frog. Was the norm.

Regards

TT

[trajan]

1. Re cap badge on helmet. He is a warrant officer not that that makes a difference. ORs also badged helmets but it was never officially approve of as it compromised the shells strength. Photos can be seen to show it did occur though.

2. Re the helve handle in the frog. This was the norm for 08 or 14 webbing in pistol order. They were armed with pistols so did not need bayonets and as such had no helve holder on their webbing so they stuck it in the frog. Was the norm.

Regards

TT

Thanks TT, on both things. I had wondered about those helve handles - wondered if they were getting ready for an impromptu rounders match...

[Guest]

Ref Vickers v Maxims in 1914:

1. Pre War output: '...only a little over 100 [Vickers] had been produced before the war.

2. War-time output

Output of MGs 1914*........1915....1916....1917........1918.......Total

Maxim..................13............38......307........308............0.........666

Vickers..............266.......2,405...7,429...21,782...39,473.....71,355

Comparing the Vickers v Maxim overall production:

95% of heavy MG production in during the first five months of the war were Vickers.

99% of heavy MG production during the whole war were Vickers.

* Aug-Dec 1914

3. Diary Evidence. The word Vickers (in the context of an MG) does not appear in any of the regular Infantry war diaries in 1914. Searching the unit war diaries for 'Maxim' produces dozens of results. The 2nd Bn KRRC recorded their 'new' replacement MGs were Maxims on 29th Dec 1914, which, on the surface, suggests that Vickers production was still quite limited. The history of the number of Vickers ordered is available for 1914 but the factory had to be built first. It would be interesting to trace where the 366 Vickers ended up (100 Pre-war + 266 produced between Aug-Dec 1914).

However - I think it is distinctly possible, and in fact highly likely that the two 'Maxims' mentioned by the 2nd Bn KRRC were in fact Vickers - a general point made earlier by Mr Drill I believe. Only 13 Maxims having been produced between Aug-Dec 1914 against 266 Vickers. Given the considerable losses of MGs in front line units it would seem probable that these units were re-armed first. ....so, for the re-enactment of the truce in 1914 I think it more likely a regular battalion had Vickers MGs rather than Maxims. There were 100 regular line infantry battalions in F&Fin the line that day, requiring 200 MGs at full scale. Most battalions lost MGs in 1914 and we know that 95% of MGs produced in 1914 were Vickers (=266/279) and only 5% were Maxims (=13/279)

This of course does not consider captured German MGs being used. For the re-enactment you could use either the Vickers or the Maxim with confidence.

Edit: The other point to consider is that the maxim had difficulty with the Mark VII ammunition.

2nd Bn KRRC:

29th Dec 1914. No rain. Colder. Capt J S WILSON wounded in chest by spent bullet. 3 Riflemen wounded. Much water in trenches especially communication. News of British raid on CUXHAVEN. Bright moon, nearly full. B Coy to support C Coy. Two new machine guns received (Maxims).

This is the latest reference to replacement MGs I can find in the BEF unit war diaries for 1914.

MG

Edited.

Sources:

1. History of the History of Munitions: The Supply of Munitions Vol XI Part V Machine Guns. Page 9 and page 27

2. 2nd Bn KRRC unit war diary 1914

[Khaki]

Many thanks LF & TT for the 'helve' answer,

khaki

[Khaki]

Also interesting to see the same man wearing a short barreled, probably MkV Webley in an open top designed for a 6" MkV or MkVI. No wonder the surviving examples of holsters often have the last two inches or so of leather crushed.

khaki

[Beerhunter]

This may be of interest our (HBSA) Great War Machine Gun shoot last year. A motorcycle combination mounted Vickers was also demonstrated.

At the very end is a demo of an SMLE being fired over a simulated parapet. This gadget (courtesy of the NRA Museum) works surprisingly well.

[AlanD]

so were Colt Government 45s used by the Brits as early as 1914? That would be handy as I have 2 of those!

We start filming 8th November The Christmas Day truce!

I very much doubt if any were on issue that early. Although some British Officers DID purchase their own (As they did with many other non-standard weapons, remember Churchill's C96?), they would have been few and far between and so to be on the safe side, I would avoid using them.

Nearly all use of Colt Government Model pistols in .45acp by British forces was via private purchase.

Only one official reference to a purchase of 57 .45acp Colts from the trade has been found. This purchase was by the Admiralty for use in aeroplanes. Colt .45acp pistols do appear in a comprehensive list of small arms inspected at Enfield during the war, alongside the Colt Govenment model in .455 auto.

Goddard reports 100 being purchased directly from Colt in the war. I have found confirmation of this in Colt records in the Connecticut State Archives when I had a shuffty over there in October.

So we end up with a grand total of 157 Colt Government Models in .45acp being official purchased during the Great War, by the British government.

Regards

AlanD

Sydney