Bullecourt - British soldiers bodies from 1917 located in a field.

[margaretdufay]

Here's the link for the French radio programme for anyone who would like to listen to it.

http://www.francebleu.fr/infos/la-belle-histoire-sur-france-bleu-nord/la-belle-histoire-lundi-29-septembre

• Alors que l'on célèbre le centenaire de la Grande Guerre, une quarantaine de corps de soldats britanniques et australiens ont été localisés dans un champ à Bullecourt dans le Pas-de-Calais.
  dans La belle histoire... sur France Bleu NordLundi 29 septembre 2014 à 08h13

[fjwiltshire]

There will be calls to disinter them but it will also spark the debate of where do you stop. I'd welcome some Australian input here, my short time here doesn't qualify to speak for the nation. I was surprised that the UK government agreed to its share of the Fromelles exercise, what arm twisting with lashings of guilt were applied to secure that agreement. I think it's time to draw the line. Also, if this counts, the economy here is not in such good health as 2007, manufacturing gone, commodity prices falling and a hard nosed government which doesn't throw its money around.

Frank

[ianw]

There will be calls to disinter them but it will also spark the debate of where do you stop.

Frank

Yes, I quite agree. This debate does need to be had and there will be people who take the inconvenient view that rather than being about "where do you stop" , it should be about exploiting modern I.D techniques and finding more dead i.e "When and where do we start!"

At the moment, the attitude to the Great War dead is rather incoherent. Massive amounts of money were spent immediately after the war until a totally arbitrary cut-off date when HMG shut up shop. The success of the widely praised Fromelles recovery and I.D process is an embarassment to cash-strapped officialdom as a precedent has been created. It will be difficult to defend the "Let sleeping Tommies and Diggers lie" position if more significant concentrations of remains are found - and they are certainly out there.

[Waddell]

There will be calls to disinter them but it will also spark the debate of where do you stop. I'd welcome some Australian input here, my short time here doesn't qualify to speak for the nation. I was surprised that the UK government agreed to its share of the Fromelles exercise, what arm twisting with lashings of guilt were applied to secure that agreement. I think it's time to draw the line. Also, if this counts, the economy here is not in such good health as 2007, manufacturing gone, commodity prices falling and a hard nosed government which doesn't throw its money around.

Frank

Frank,

It would be good to have some detailed information about this before any speculation.

The stories so far all seem speculative.

Scott

[trajan]

... It will be difficult to defend the "Let sleeping Tommies and Diggers lie" position if more significant concentrations of remains are found - and they are certainly out there.

Another point to remember though is that cash-input aside, there is almost certainly a shortage of people trained in the archaeological excavation of human bodies, and so capable of doing the initial work, never mind the forensics... The point being that although excavating a single body is a fairly straightforward matter for a trained archaeologist (I have done a hundred or so plus a like number of cremations, of all periods), it does take a certain level of skill and it does take time; excavating a mass grave where all the bodies are thrown in is much more difficult and takes a heck of a lot longer.

[Seadog]

Good points (P55) but should we be actively searching for the fallen of WW1 at all for there are still thousands of the missing on the battlefields somewhere. Should we as I believe use all the techniques now available in an effort to identify those soldiers who return to us through ploughing and construction work etc. There is no definitive answer to this and I fear that if this continues the authorities may adopt a somewhat negative attitude to the projected expertise and not inconsiderable expense involved.

Norman

.

[ianw]

Another point to remember though is that cash-input aside, there is almost certainly a shortage of people trained in the archaeological excavation of human bodies, and so capable of doing the initial work, never mind the forensics... The point being that although excavating a single body is a fairly straightforward matter for a trained archaeologist (I have done a hundred or so plus a like number of cremations, of all periods), it does take a certain level of skill and it does take time; excavating a mass grave where all the bodies are thrown in is much more difficult and takes a heck of a lot longer.

Whilst I am not suggesting that any excavation is in the offing, it would seem likely that any possible job at "HAC Field" Bullecourt would likely be smaller in magnitude than Pheasant Wood though perhaps as difficult. I seem to recall that the Pheasant Wood activities were put out to competitive tender and that there were multiple quotes. This would suggest that, as one might expect, the required skilled personnel will be available if the "price is right". So it does come down to "cash-input" alone in reality.

[JOVE23]

I am curious about the "Proctor grave." Has there been any investigation into its location? Any solid leads, etc?

[Guest Karyn Gee]

I have only joined this forum today because I found this topic quire accidentally by surfing the net . My Great Uncle Francis Hodgson died at the 2nd Battle of Bullecourt on the 13th May 1917 . I know the effect it had on my family when I was growing up , the fact that they didn't know where his body was lying - in some far flung foreign field - caused anguish and sorrow amongst my Great Aunts and my Grandfather and , indeed my father . My brother is named for our lost soldier .

If its accurate that bodies, either British or Australian are being found at Bullecourt and that excavations are taking place - I would certainly welcome that news - I would even try and contribute financially .

Its the very least thing, and the very last thing I can do for a man who gave his life for his King, his Country and his Family - of which , I am proud to be his descendent .

And , I promised my late father that I would try my best to bring "Uncle Frank" home or at the very least, see him buried decently in that far flung foreign field with a proper grave, not just a name on an addendum at Arras ........

I am only just now beginning to understand the logistics of this operation , so forgive my apparent naivety .

[ianw]

If its accurate that bodies, either British or Australian are being found at Bullecourt and that excavations are taking place - I would certainly welcome that news - I would even try and contribute financially .

And , I promised my late father that I would try my best to bring "Uncle Frank" home or at the very least, see him buried decently in that far flung foreign field with a proper grave, not just a name on an addendum at Arras ........

Karyn,

Well it is certainly true that bodies have been found in the field adjacent to the village at Bullecourt. There is a thread on this Forum (see below) about Lt John Pritchard and others remains being found and subsequently buried with extreme military honours including royalty in attendance!

http://1914-1918.inv...howtopic=144252

I am with you in believing that these men deserve nothing less than an honoured named grave. However many people believe that sleeping Tommies and Diggers should now be left to lie where the fortunes of war deposited them.

There is a widespread belief that the particular field in Bullecourt contains more human remains. However, official policy is that they should not be disinterred. You may be aware of the new Fromelles cemetery created from the remains found in the Pheasant Wood pits. This is being presented by officialdom as very much a one-off. Personally , I can't quite understand the logic of that stance other than as a cost saving decision.

So Uncle Frank might be in that field in Bullecourt and your DNA might be useable to ID his remains - but to pursue this line of inquiry will require a head of steam to be built up in support of it - most probably in Australia as we in the old country are tired and impoverished!

[Waddell]

I have only joined this forum today because I found this topic quire accidentally by surfing the net . My Great Uncle Francis Hodgson died at the 2nd Battle of Bullecourt on the 13th May 1917 . I know the effect it had on my family when I was growing up , the fact that they didn't know where his body was lying - in some far flung foreign field - caused anguish and sorrow amongst my Great Aunts and my Grandfather and , indeed my father . My brother is named for our lost soldier .

Hi Karyn and welcome to the forum.

If your great uncle is 26209 Lance Corporal Francis Hodgson who was killed on 13th May 1917 I think you will find that he was fighting not at the battlefield of 2nd Bullecourt but slightly to the north east around Monchy-Le-Proux.

He is mentioned towards the end of this article (you may already have)-

http://scarboroughsmaritimeheritage.org.uk/greatwar/s8-monchy-le-preux.php

and his CWGC entry-

http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2001267/HODGSON,%20FRANCIS

Scott

[egbert]

Another foreign attempt to recover the fallen left on the former battlefield which makes me suspicious.

As we all know here from own experience or reports from official French/British/German entities or professional WW1 archaeologists - even a presumed mass grave of -let's say Australian diggers- may contain remains of another (enemy/friendly) nation in this case German soldiers. That will be for sure the case when searching a field around own/enemy lines or no-mans-land.

And this is the point when different remembrance cultures clash together and cause strong irritation. The German standpoint is identical to the French and not very far away from the British: let the fallen remain untouched and honor these souls leaving them all together in "their" wet graves in eternity. An exception is commonly accepted for searches when a piece of land turns to "development" status.

I take from the Pozieres project and this project, that Australian culture seems to be to search actively even in undeveloped countrysides for their fallen. If Australians come over to Europe and start digging and mine-sweeping the fields, they surely do not consider the culture here. If that is not brought in line with those nations who also claim to have fallen on the same grounds and if a compromise is not found - will cause massive problems. I am reading mostly explanations when that happens that - yes we have involved the OAWG, all is fine. Wrong: first the only legal entity in France to deal with the remains is the DRAC. If that is not observed by Australians, why don't you involve from the very beginning the VdK, the German OAWG equivalent for a concerted approach?

I bet this was never done!!!!!

Nobody has the right to overturn the remembrance culture of another nation without agreement. Either you work together or at least with consent or you shall not dig in undeveloped countryside.

What would the ANZACS say when German archaeologists dig in Gallipoly in search for a fallen German officer adviser to the Turkish and disturb the eternal rest of Australian diggers w/o consent of the Australian officials?

It seems to be too much en vogue today, 100 years after the war, to start excavation activities whose approach is not shared by all involved nations! Will dignity and respect to wards all national dead be compromised by a few foreign activists?

[ianw]

Re Egberts posting above, I have few worries about the treatment of human remains when qualified archaeologists of any nationality are involved in an excavation. Remains be they from 1917 AD or 1917 BC are of prime importance and are treated accordingly. However I am very concerned at the loss of archaeological material including remains when land development occurs with insufficient time to complete investigations properly.

With specific reference to the field in Bullecourt , having been there , it is clear that it is likely to be developed in fairly short order due to its location. if this is the case, it would make sense to remove the remains that are strongly believed to be there sooner rather than later. This will avoid a rushed job having to be done at a later date.

It would also seem likely that any excavation at Bullecourt would find German , Empire and British remains. Given sufficient time and quality excavation staff , they will all be treated with equal respect. A quick "bish bosh" job would mean equal disrespect.

Respect for the "remembrance culture" of the various countries concerned is a two-way thing and we should not consider any truncating of necessary exhumation works to get the bull-dozers and concrete mixers simply working a bit quicker.

[Seadog]

Ian what makes you so sure that the field will be developed this cannot be a given as the landowners may wish to respect the possibility of the existence of human remains still being in situ and if they did then they would certainly gain my respect for doing so. This topic has overtones of the Pozieres thread and repeats yet again the fact that human remains can be found by using a metal detector, if anyone can explain just how that works I would very much like to know. Just one further point who is to fund a detailed excavation of the field in question if development of the land is approved and is there a possibility of conducting detailed investigation techniques such as those used at Fromelles?. Can someone please post a Google Earth image of the location as this would be very useful in this discussion.

Norman

[ianw]

Norman,

I am most certainly not "sure" that this field will be developed but its position suggests to me that it will be. There are fields and fields and this field is bounded by the buildings of the village on one side and a village street on the other.

I am sure that there will be large amounts of metal in this field and this will be easily found by good detectors. Any remains will be adjacent to and intermingled with these metal objects.

You make a good point about where any excavation funding might come from. What needs to be avoided is something of the magnitude of Pheasant Wood being revealed when the grass and top soil is removed by a developer and then much head scratching and panic about what then to do. This could be avoided.

Link to map is below. The field is bounded by Rue d'Arras in the south and Rue Neuve. Lt Pritchard and his companions were found in the south end of the field.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Bullecourt,+France/@50.193116,2.9259339,233m/data=

[Seadog]

Thanks Ian I am unable to make any connection between finding possible metallic objects and human remains using a metal detector and I am sure that if this was applied to the fields around Thiepval you would get a multitude of hits but I would never advocate digging on that site. The only way to ascertain whether human remains are present is for the professionals to conduct an exploratory dig as happened at Pheasant Wood and I cannot see the authorities undertaking this task for just where will this end as there must be very many sites where the undiscovered dead rest. I for one am totally opposed to undertaking such excavations without very good reason such as the threat from development and I hope the land owner will vehemently resist this temptation.

Location by Tom

Image Bing Maps

Norman

[ianw]

Norman,

Yes I would agree there is no problem whatsoever leaving any site unmolested as long as development is not planned or envisaged. However, the site in question is not as far as I know legally protected in any way from development. As the original owners of these fields whose memories went back to the immediate post WW1 years pass away , it would seem inevitable that the personal commitments that kept these sites undeveloped will erode under the pressure of the Euro.

I understand that it was the owner of the site who allowed and invited the recent detector survey. Its unclear what his intentions for the site are. The last remains found were during drainage works I believe. Perhaps he is planning more such work? If the field does contains the numbers of remains that have been mooted, is it desirable that they should be exhumed in an ad hoc piece-meal manner by way of mini-diggers on drainage work?

[Seadog]

Quote P67

"If the field does contains (sic) the numbers of remains that have been mooted",

This is indeed the key question Ian that in my opinion will need to be answered by professional archeologists if and only if this site is earmarked for development but not before and I do not see any justifiable reason to preempt such investigations before this stage is reached. Notwithstanding this particular site in the normal course of events the finding of human remains should prompt the finder(s) to report this to the authorities and then the usual exhumation and attempted identification will follow as it has done so successfully with the BL-15.

Regards

Norman

[ianw]

I think it's literally a question of watch this space, Norman.

[glosterman]

Coverage of an earlier find at Bullecourt and work leading to ID / burial of Lt John Pritchard, HAC in 2013 on the "People Remember" on BBC1 earlier today. Viewable for a week via BBC I-Player (about 17 mins in). Includes interview with officers great nieces, HAC archivist and Sue Raftree of JCCC.

Kevin

[ianw]

Coverage of an earlier find at Bullecourt and work leading to ID / burial of Lt John Pritchard, HAC in 2013 on the "People Remember" on BBC1 earlier today. Viewable for a week via BBC I-Player (about 17 mins in). Includes interview with officers great nieces, HAC archivist and Sue Raftree of JCCC.

Kevin

Kevin,

Yes, JP's niece Janet Shell discovered that her Great Uncle's remains had been found via the first Pritchard thread on this Forum started by yours truly! Indeed, the Forum gets an oblique reference on the programme you mention.

I subsequently visited the field in Bullecourt with her and her sister.

[ianw]

The Bullecourt burials story continues to simmer. More in the French press today :-

http://www.20minutes.fr/lille/1477079-20141107-calais-pourquoi-soldats-guerre-14-18-peut-etre-jamais-sepultures

Interesting that Lambis of Fromelles fame is now getting involved. Possibly an important development as he obviously has credibility and has been honoured for his efforts in respect of Fromelles by the Australian Government. So I guess he will get news coverage at home at this time of the year and on an ongoing basis.

He also may have caused the Australian Embassy to say a bit more than the UK authorities would have liked :-

Along the lines of "When sufficient evidence is provided , the government will take the necessary actions to recover the bodies as previously at Fromelles. At the present time, no substantial evidence has been provided".

Even with the caveat at the end of the comment , if one was minded to let sleeping Tommies and Diggers lie, should this have been said to a man like Lambis?

Watch this space , I think.

[Blackblue]

I've read some of the older media in this now, including the letter from Lou Bougais posted on Michael Smith's blog.

What are the legalities of a private dig to uncover the 'evidence' required? Has research been done at the German Archives yet?

Rgds

Tim D

[ianw]

What are the legalities of a private dig to uncover the 'evidence' required? Has research been done at the German Archives yet?

Rgds

Tim D

Not sure Tim. As we know the use of a metal detector is illegal. However digging goes on all over these areas and the last human remains found in the self same field in Bullecourt were apparently found during drainage works.

[Blackblue]

Thanks mate.

So I assume the thing missing in this case compared to Pheasant Wood is definitive proof of burials from the German side?

Rgds

Tim D