Bullecourt - British soldiers bodies from 1917 located in a field.

[fjwiltshire]

Sometime around 2000 I visited Bullecourt. It was late afternoon 6pm ish. Visited the Aussie memorial. Then the museum. I stood in the forecourt of this very French house not knowing what to do. An elderly gentleman emerged from the house, probably disturbing his meal, thinking "another emotional rosbif",.

In schoolboy French I said "Mon oncle est mort ici". He patiently showed me around the museum where on the wall was a letter from the family of a Frenchman who died with the 2/6th London (Pageot maybe) Everything there was touchable. Then to the barn where I felt the weight of a wheeled casualty stretcher.

This man had endless patience. He must have felt it his duty.

I hope this man's work is remembered and recorded.

[59165]

That was Jean Letaille,Frank & he & his wife are forever remembered as the new museum there is named after them.I was there this morning again.It's good.

[nigelcave]

[Re Post 25] Strong probablility that father/brother/uncle other male relative fought/was wounded/died at Bullecourt in 1917. You could always see what happens when you put the surnames into the database and the relevant Bullecourt dates, starting with AIF only and then try the British. Then you could try Bean. Having checked myself - does it give family details for those named?

[Blackblue]

See my last Nigel.

[nigelcave]

See my last Nigel.

This is what comes of not going on to Page 2 of a thread - I only noticed p. 2 after I had birbled and then threw in the post number to which i referred. Anyhow, all should be clearer as regards the use of Bullecourt in a name.

[Seadog]

Excuse me for interjecting but isn’t this thread about the possibility of the remains of soldiers being in the field and the no doubt next suggestion that they be dug up that is if “they” are actually there?. Any thoughts on the reported fact that a metal detector is being used albeit in private land with the express purpose of finding human remains. Has France got any legislation regarding this specific situation and just what do members think the outcome of this particular case will be? Perhaps some thoughts on the bit in the article mentioning the lost officer and 200 men would be in order as well for are these also to be part of this “search”?

Norman

PS Should not this thread be in the "Recovering the fallen" sub-forum?

[margaretdufay]

I wasn't sure where to post the first article, but if you think that it should be moved, then please do it by all means. I will try to keep my eyes and ears open, as I only live about ten kms from Bullecourt.

mags

[nigelcave]

For what it is worth, I am not keen on this type of activity: if there is going to be some form of construction work on a site, then by all means; otherwise I would say let them lie in peace - they are all commemorated (one hopes!). The problem comes when developers might be tempted to ignore the fact that they have come across human remains - I have heard plenty of stories that this has been the case in the past, but have never seen it in print, as it were. It is actually quite difficult to shove up a house in a 'green' space within a village in France, from what I have been told: so I would be interested to know how real the threat of the development of this particular piece of land might be.

[Scotty]

Is the missing Officer Percy Black?

[Seadog]

Hi Scotty (P36), good to see you posting here.

Norman

[Blackblue]

Now that WOULD be interesting!

[ianw]

Interesting indeed if the "bravest of the brave" is waiting to be discovered there.

[MelPack]

I have to confess to scratching my head as to how much of a 'story' this actually is.

I assume that the Aussie, Carl Johnson, referred to in the article is associated with this project:

 

The story of this particular field is well known and especially so after the reburials of Pritchard, Elphick and the seven unknown HACs last year. There were thirty plus HAC fatalities with no known graves, so there is a possibility that there could still be another 20 plus sets of remains in the field.

I have no knowledge of the size of the field, the topography or even how extensive or limited the recovery operation was in 2009 but one thing I am absolutely certain about is that sweeping with metal detectors on a former battlefield is hardly conclusive proof that human remains are still there.

What the particular purpose of Mr Johnson's visit was only he can tell but, otherwise, the story seems to be a tale of speculation and ruffled feathers.

[margaretdufay]

another article from a local free magazine called 20 minutes which is distributed on the subway in lille

https://www.google.com/url?rct=j&sa=t&url=http://www.20minutes.fr/lille/1448575-20140924-calais-soixantaine-soldats-grande-guerre-reperes-champ&ct=ga&cd=CAAYADIZOTQ5ZjViNTJiMzFlN2E0MjpmcjpmcjpGUg&usg=AFQjCNHO_SpOUkO-aAbZhaGghtqF9C-ABw

mags

[MelPack]

Mags

Thanks for posting.

The body count now appears to have risen to sixty in 21 locations marked by stakes, all found by specially calibrated metal detectors that can distinguish buttons and belt buckles notwithstanding the remains being apparently buried 'less than' two meters in depth.

And the absolutely definitive proof - the presence of purple flowers that only grow where bodies are.

Well, I am now completely convinced.

[trajan]

The body count now appears to have risen to sixty in 21 locations marked by stakes, all found by specially calibrated metal detectors that can distinguish buttons and belt buckles notwithstanding the remains being apparently buried 'less than' two meters in depth.

And the absolutely definitive proof - the presence of purple flowers that only grow where bodies are.

Well, I am now completely convinced.

Yes I would be 'completely convinced' too...! (And thanks mags for posting the link.)

But, seriously, although I have no idea about the sensitivity of metal detectors, I do know a little bit more about crop marks, which is in effect what these purple flowers might prove to be an example of. An example. Unbelievable though it might sound, the plan of a circular ditched Neolithic henge site I worked on in the 1970's, on a gravel subsoil in north England, was revealed by the presence of a ring of clover that proved to follow the line of the buried ditches exactly. Now, clover has roots going down what - 2-5 cm.? And the ditches themselves were under at least a metre of plough soil and colluvium. But that clover picked up on the deeper humic earth in the buried ditches.

Back to our topic. All human bodies contain phosphate and it might just be that these flowers love a phosphate-rich environment, and so might just represent the presence of a buried body. BUT, remembering that all organic materials and so all mammalian bodies contain phosphate, that phosphate trace could just as easily be buried organic rubbish, or a buried sheep, or a cow, or a dog. Either way, if this was a serious archaeological exercise, a preliminary would be - in addition to the usual geophysics - a phosphate survey. That would locate concentrations of the material and where there would be buried organic remains that may be the sites of human burials...

Trajan

[MelPack]

Trajan

That is an interesting point about vegetation - in fact, the colouration of vegetation and particularly grasses were used by the post war clearances as an indicator of possible remains - but as you have indicated, this is hardly conclusive evidence.

There are two aspects that concern me about this story:

The first is simply the appropriateness of making assertions that there are sixty sets of remains in twenty one spots in a locality without proper investigation and techniques that would withstand second scrutiny. In all probability, there are remains in the field but that is probably true of every field on the old battlegrounds - remember, it has been little more that ten months since a set of remains was found within yards of the entrance to Thiepval.

The second is that it appears now that Mr Johnson has demonstrated his prowess in this field, his next quest is to locate the 200 Aussies buried with their ID tags intact.

From what I understand, there has been a serious project running for a number of years dealing with the research and investigation of there being a mass grave of Aussies at Bullercourt that emanated from this report on the fate of a Lt Proctor:

I would hate to see the credibility of that research damaged by some ill- considered freelance enterprise.

[spof]

I have removed some and edited several posts in this thread which had nothing to do with the possibility of remains being found at Bullecourt. Can we please remain on the topic?

Thanks

Glen

GWF Admin Team

[Seadog]

From the free magazine article (Google Translation)

"Both should still continue their research for ten days, including another battlefield at Bullecourt. "We will work with the help of a local amateur historian, two places are still buried more than 300 Australian soldiers," said Carl Johnson. Then will convince the Australian and British governments "to provide these soldiers a proper burial." An expensive operation. And Didier Guerle lament: "And a day of war in Iraq or Afghanistan, it does not cost much? These guys, who came to die for us, well worth it".

A few questions, where are the 300 soldiers reckoned to be and what happens next, will there be pressure for DNA profiling as at Pheasant Wood (Not withstanding that ID discs may be found) and if over 300 soldiers are found and exhumed where will they be buried?

Any thoughts

Norman

[ianw]

If I was greatly desirous of having this field excavated I would also claim a goodly number of remains "found" in any way possible - purple flowers, shafts of sunlight or whatever. In the post-Fromelles way of things, I would want to be Australian not common or garden British. I would also claim that some sort of war hero might well be among the dead to be found. Any other boxes that might be ticked? Get Kylie or Jason D to visit the field?

But have they done enough to get it "in play" yet? I'd say "No" at the moment but they seem determined and this is the Australian sacred site of Bullecourt. I don't want to be a cynic but a couple of hundred found Diggers would certainly help to put Bullecourt more firmly on the Great War touring map.

[Blackblue]

Smaller field of possibles I guess.....so positive IDs far easier that British. I would not be surprised if momentum is increased considerably by the centenary. Be a very nice story come 1917.

[ianw]

Smaller field of possibles I guess.....so positive IDs far easier that British. I would not be surprised if momentum is increased considerably by the centenary. Be a very nice story come 1917.

Yes, and also easier to generate Australian momentum , for sure.

[fjwiltshire]

Ianw

I've lived in Australia for 8 years now. The people here are wonderful and friendly, first name terms immediately. No formalities, they can't be bothered.

They are more sentimental than us Brits but they have an open pride in their country which might embarrass a southern Englishman.

I thought digging up Fromelles was pointless but I think it has lanced the boil. It was necessary, now we move on.

Your Kylie reference was rude and disrespectful. So apologise and keep punching.

[margaretdufay]

It was mentioned this morning on local French radio, France Bleue Nord , but I haven't been able to find a link for it if I do, then I will post it. Even one of my neighbours, who is a veteran of the Algerian war mentioned it to me yesterday. And he told me that when he was younger, he would be working on a sugar beet field and the old hindenburg trench cut the field in two, and it would be full of shells and things that they found when working the fields. So there is quite a bit of interest too amongst French people.

Mags

[ianw]

Ianw

Your Kylie reference was rude and disrespectful. So apologise and keep punching.

It wasn't meant to be but if anyone else was offended, I regret this. That said, I am sure she would be very much welcomed if she turned up in Bullecourt.

I personally have great respect for the efforts of Australians and all other nationalities at Fromelles both during the Great War and in the last decade. As you say, they are great patriots and I suspect , lanced boil or not, some may well be in the mood to bring their Bullecourt diggers in from the cold. In this effort, I wish them good luck.