Saxon, Prussian and Bavarian attitudes to the war

[Uncle George]

A German journalist writes about the "Christmas Truce". "On the German side the truce exposed regional differences. Most of the regiments taking part in the truce were from Saxony and Bavaria, proud regions uneasy about the Prussian domination of Germany."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-30417641

[Drew-1918]

Very interesting.

A few lines further on Juergs is quoted as saying that they would nonetheless try to sneak a look in their opponents trenches "so as to be better able to kill them once the lull in the fighting was over...". At that point in the article it almost seems to be pointing to slightly contradictory yet co-existent aspects of the truce. Working class Saxons and Bavarians united (for a time) with the British in some way, yet aware that they were going to be killing each other the next day. Kind of sums up some of what has been said in this thread, I think.

Thanks a lot for posting.

[fv1620]

This is the General Staff view expressed in the Intelligence Series, Home Defence (Germany) published August 1914

[seaforths]

fv1620 what a great and interesting read. Thank you for sharing. Sheeesh those Bavarians did like their alchohol!

You can clearly see the formation of stereotypical ideas within that and it shows that even then, as a society, there was a keenness to segregate and pigeon hole people. However, it also highlights an awareness of the differences of the variation between German communities. We are not much further forward today I suppose, as we speak of the North-South divide here and there is a difference in areas even in such a small country as Britain. That must surely have been even more noticeable in trying to unite a much larger country over 100 years ago, in that one culture must dominate or suppress others in order to bring about the unity and that it would still remain unwanted by a great many for some time to come.

I'm playing catch up at the moment and so glad to see this thread is still progressing at a nice sedate pace. Harking back to an earlier post on how German the British were/are, I have some information to post (when I can lay my hands on it) of the German view at that time of other nationalities. It is in German and I don't speak/read German but enough to get the gist of it. I'll be off to dig in my book...

[Drew-1918]

fv1620,

Thanks very much indeed for posting that, it is really interesting. Many of the different points that have cropped up in this thread in soldier and historian accounts appear in this official report. I wonder if they made any reports like this later in the war and if the emphasis changed at all. Many thanks again as it is a great contribution.

Very nicely summed-up Seaforths! Will be very interesting to read the German counterpoint to that if and when you get a chance.

Cheers everyone,

Chris

[trajan]

Thanks fv for that contribution - although I'd better not mention it to my current HODept, who is a Bavarian...!

And Seaforths, you put it in a nutshell, and looking forward to your piece when it comes through!

[fv1620]

These attitudes are fascinating.

I have similar official publications on the Soviet & Chinese forces in the 1960s.

Also an Arabic phrase book 1915 with such winning phrases as:

The Arabs like the English

We live in a house not a tent

You have been stealing again

Oh, how dirty you are!

The flies are troublesome

He can carry the lot by himself, he is strong

Bring me tea and cakes etc

There is a little bit more from the Intelligence Series book on perceived German strategies that I will scan later.

[seaforths]

Ok sorry to have been gone longer than intended. I can usually do this stuff via iPad but I'm having some technical issues at the moment so I'm on my PC. This seems to be the German analysis of the myriad of nationalities they were holding as POWs. From Kriegsgefangene Volker, 1921. Someone previously posted about whether the Germans considered the British to be of Saxon origin and if I'm not mistaken, they seem to be taking that view of those from Yorks and Lancs. I'm not sure about the footnote doesn't imply that Highlanders wore petticoats!:

[JWK]

They sure had "guests" from all over, even the Comores, and New Caledonia !

Love the description of the "Romans" from middle & eastern France : Dark & decorative !

[Drew-1918]

That’s fascinating, thank you very much indeed for posting.

I can’t really read the German, so I may be wrong, but the tone of the document seems quite a bit less critical than the British one. It reads at times like it was one great big party, or am I missing some irony here? “Finally, some gigantic, powerful, friendly Indians from Canada and the United States were our guests”.

Though to be fair, it is more of a general summary rather than an attempt at an in-depth analysis. May I ask if the book goes on to any further detailed descriptions of any of the different nationalities in the camps?

The document seems to be using a two thousand year old 'stereotype' and paraphrasing Tacitus in its description of the Welsh. And am I right in thinking it refers to, “the big cheerful Scots in Kilts”? Not how some German accounts I have read generally refer to die damen aus der Hölle! Again, I could be missing something here. Apologies if I am.

Does anybody know what the article means when it seems to liken the farmers of Yorkshire and Lancashire to Old Saxon “cousins”?

Great stuff! Many thanks Seaforths.

[seaforths]

The Germans produced a number of books on POW camps and they were nothing short of propaganda. In an attempt, in the face of accusation, to try and assure their own people and the rest of the world that they didn't mistreat prisoners, they produced these books but this book contains a lot of text, whereas the others are mainly photographs. My apologies, I should have posted that information when I posted the extract.

If you mean did they give a breakdown of the numbers/nationalities at each camp, then yes they did. However, the accuracy is questionable and it doesn't list working camps. In McCarthy's book, there was something in the region of 4,000 main camps and lazarett and 18,000 working camps by about 1916. While I have the paper copy, if you google the title, it should come up on the archives.org site, where it can be read online or downloaded.

Actually, I don't think the Germans had their own word for kilts, nor the French. I have seen them referred to as petticoats and skirts in both languages. I have also seen some German text that just uses the word kilt. It is interesting that they seem to be going back to the roots of each race rather than discussing them in context at that time - other than many of the colonials whose loyalty lay with the 'mutterland'. They cover an awful lot of nationalities in a broad context but my German is also poor and something I would like to remedy because online translation tools are very poor.

Despite the contents of the book and their knowledge of the different nationalities, other than the Sikh, Muslim and Hindu, they gave no consideration of the different dietry requirements of european prisoners, Canadian, Australian etc. prisoners - they all got the same.

It would be great if someone could come up with a German text that was properly comparable with the British one posted by fv1620. I suspect that there was a great deal of stereotypical thought on both sides regardiing nationalities and regional differences of those nationalities. There seem to be stereotypical views held of German as a race that are still strongly held today. For exampleI have read a British comment regarding German maps which implies that their maps portray their obsession for organisation and infinite detail. Something which tends to still be associated/attributed to them today.

[Drew-1918]

Ah! I see. Thank you very much for taking the time to explain that so clearly.

I was just curious to see if it went into more detail about the characteristics of the perceived nationalities, other than where it goes back to the perceived roots, as you pointed out. But now that I see the context of the book, I understand it a bit better. No need to apologise, it was my lack of knowledge rather than anything else there. I will have a look on archives.org.

I agree, it would be great to see a German text properly comparable to the one fv1620 posted. And perhaps some more German views of the different nationalities opposing them in the trenches . (I mean reported by the Germans themselves rather than by the British as being what the Germans supposedly thought/said etc etc...). I'll see if there is anything else on the archives site too.

I think the text you posted mentions the colonial contingents being "stronger" or more fearsome than the British themselves (though as I have said, I could be way off here). That is certainly an idea I am sure I have come across in translations of German texts.

Thanks again,

Chris

[fv1620]

Here is some more but now focussing on expected strategies.

[seaforths]

Another great post fv1620 and again, very interesting. I think possibly based on information obtained from British Officers who were in German pre-war observing the German Army and probably as part of an exchange programme. During which, I expect, the Germans made their own observations regarding the British Army - it would be very interesting to read their take on the British!

I read an account recently (well, a couple of months back) of a British civilian Red Cross worker who was captured with other Red Cross workers in Belgium and interned as a POW at Torgau in September 1914 and apologies as I don't have the source of his account to hand right now. In his account of his imprisonment at Torgau, he tells of a German Officer (Colonel, I think) of IR 79 (so Prussian), wounded in the battle of Le Cateau who was recuperating from his wounds at his home garrison town of Torgau. He often visited the British Officers in the prison camp who were captured during that battle, to chat with them, discuss tactics with them and how it was that they lost that battle and the Germans won it. I bet that brightened up their days considerably!! However, it did cross my mind when I read it, whether a Saxon or Bavarian officer would have done the same thing or whether they would have made the most of the opportunity to just take it easy for a while!

Trajan, if you are still following this thread - yes - I'm still researching That Man!

[Uncle George]

A German journalist writes about the "Christmas Truce". "On the German side the truce exposed regional differences. Most of the regiments taking part in the truce were from Saxony and Bavaria, proud regions uneasy about the Prussian domination of Germany."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-30417641

Thomas Weber in his 'Hitler's First War' (2010) makes a different but related point. He notes that Prussian units that served with the 6th Bavarian Army opposite the British sector participated in the Truce, while Bavarian, Saxon and Prussian troops that faced French units did so only on rare occasions. "... [W]hat determined German behaviour during the [1914] Christmas Truce were not cultural, ideological, and political variations between Prussia and the rest of Germany. What mattered was whether German units faced British, French, or Belgian ones."

It is interesting that the cultural similarities between German and British "which went well beyond the fact that British Christmas traditions had been heavily influenced by the German ones" were of more significance (in this context) than the dissimilarities amongst the (various) Germans; and were of arguably equal significance to the cultural dissimilarities between the British and their allies.

[Drew-1918]

Fv1620,

That is excellent, thank you so much again. The book has the usual stereotypes, “The ordinary German is unimaginative and unobservant…” and yet it recognizes some of the qualities of the Germans, albeit in a begrudging way at times; “severe loses will probably be stolidly accepted…” (as if stubborn resistance could not be for any other reason than unimaginativeness). Ludendorff and Hindenburg display attitudes very similar to the 1914 Home Defence report you posted. Hindenburg has the same ‘begrudging’ recognition of his enemy’s powers of resistance; as if neither side wants to really accept it, but has to acknowledge it:

“The average Frenchman was a more skilful fighter than his English comrade. On the other hand, he was not so obstinate in his defence…”

And earlier in the same passage of “Out of my life”:

“The Englishman was undoubtedly a less skilful opponent than his brother in-arms. He did not understand how to control rapid changes in the situation. His methods were too rigid. He had displayed these defects in attack… They are due to lack of appropriate military training in peace time….But what the Englishman lacked in skill he made up, at any rate partially, by his obstinacy to his task and his objective…”

Not too dissimilar to your example, I thought.

On a different tack, there seems to quite a bit that this part of the Intelligence Series got right, I think. (You would hope that they would be accurate!). I have been reading quite a few Battalion and Divisional Histories from 1914 recently, and was struck by how some of the predictions in the above text seem to have come true. Many Histories mention the German ruse of calling out to the British when they attacked; “We are the Cheshires”, or “retreat” etc. In addition, these various histories often refer to “The inevitable German counter attack”, and also seem to have a similar estimation of the German cavalry and recognition of the close support of Artillery in German attacks. I wonder how much of it could be regarded as having been accurate and how much of it was drawing too much on false perceptions of the Germans.

Seaforths,

Your example of the Prussian officer made me think. Despite some of the demonising of the Prussians we have seen, I seem to remember a few accounts where a British officer has been taken prisoner, and the Prussian officer behaves with impeccable manners and is very gentlemanly. These accounts are often quite derogatory at the same time as being complimentary, but it made me think; Are the British not seeing something of themselves in this image of a Prussian gentleman? (how they perceive themselves at least). In which case, this would be recognition on some level of Prussian similarity to the British. I am sorry; I cannot remember right now where I have seen such accounts.

Uncle George.

Thank you very much again. Those are extremely interesting points. I wonder if it only applies to the Christmas truce. For example, I think there are many accounts of the French getting on with the Germans at other times. Weber does seem to be referring to “this context” only, and if so, I wonder why. What made the cultural similarities so important at this time and possibly not so at others. Just something that occurred to me. Very thought provoking.

Thanks very much everyone,

Chris

[Uncle George]

"What made the cultural similarities so important at this time and possibly not so at others."

Weber has a suggestion: "Christmas had a higher importance in British than in French and Belgian military culture."

[Drew-1918]

I see. Thanks a lot for coming back with an answer for that. It is interesting how the Christmas Truce could affect certain shifts and changes in the 'attitudes' and relationships of the groups we have been thinking about.

Many thanks,

Chris

[seaforths]

There are, I feel, many factors that would have influenced those taking part in the truce. The French and Belgians on home soil might have felt and retained their animosity toward the Germans. After all, they were fighting to eject them from their home country and could hardly have felt more strongly about that, than at Christmas time. The British, not on home soil and far more removed from their homes and families may have been reacting differently and more in tune with the Germans, also not on their home soil and removed from their families. I realise that the French and Belgian soldiers were also separated from their families too but still think their attitude would have been more likely to have been one of bitterness than anything.

Using the Christmas period to recover the dead of both sides at what can be an emotional time of year for many and one thing leading to another...There may have been from the basic soldier's perspectives, an element of humanity involved. However, from the perspective of the officers, an opportunity to glean information about the opposition would have possibly been something that influenced their decision to allow proceedings to go to the extent of open fraternisation.

Nothing more than conjecture on my part but certainly, they were all there because of a different set of circumstances that would stand up to the basic examination and analysis of similarities and differences.

Edit: Typo corrected.

[Drew-1918]

Not directly related because it doesn't refer to the truce, but I have often wondered what was going on in the minds of the French whenever they did indulge in any 'truces' of any sort. As you say, it was on their soil. Perhaps it was the soldierly camaraderie in adversity which is sometimes mentioned. The following example from Ambulance No. 10 Personal Letters from the Front, by Leslie Buswell intrigued me when I read it. There seems to be bitterness and good humour at the same time. I don't quite understand what was going on. It is a little hard to date, but I think it refers to events a little after June of 1915:

"One can see the Germans about a thousand metres away on the hills, and as you walk along the banks of the river they can see you distinctly, but they don't bother to fire, which is kind of them! We sat down and watched two soldiers fishing, and I took a photo of them, as I thought it so amusing for people to fish under the direct and easy rifle shot of the Boches. We then went and talked to a lot of soldiers about the to return to the trenches... One officer was very indignant because those "dirty Boches" had actually thrown five shells into his trench yesterday! As he wandered off muttering, "I will show them! les cochons — les cochons — cochons," rather sleepily, I thought — I couldn't help remembering the Dormouse in "Alice in Wonderland." It appeared that at the particular line of trenches where he was they had agreed only to fire at each other with rifles! In several places here the trenches are only fifteen or twenty metres apart and the French and Germans are on quite good terms. They ex-change tobacco for wine and paper for cigarettes and then return and shoot at each other quite merrily. About Christmas or February, I am told, by soldiers who were then here, they used to walk into each other's trenches and exchange stories, etc., but now they have become 'mechant.'"

There is a bit of here hearsay about some of the stories, but I thought it was interesting.

[trajan]

Weber has a suggestion: "Christmas had a higher importance in British than in French and Belgian military culture."

Well, we Brits did get this Christmassy thing from good old Albert of Saxe-....! That might have had a bearing on how it was visualised in a similar way by Tommy and by Fritz...

Trajan

PS: Yes, Seaforths, still following, albeit back on travels and guiding every day for the next 10 days...

[Uncle George]

Well, we Brits did get this Christmassy thing from good old Albert of Saxe-....! That might have had a bearing on how it was visualised in a similar way by Tommy and by Fritz...

It is interesting that Weber points to the significance of Christmas in British MILITARY culture. (Sorry I didn't mean to shout: I don't know how to use italics on this iPad!)

[trajan]

It is interesting that Weber points to the significance of Christmas in British MILITARY culture.

Chance to get the port out all day???