Saxon, Prussian and Bavarian attitudes to the war

[Drew-1918]

Sorry for my slow response. Thank you everyone for your help.

A very pertinent point Phil, thanks very much for that. Always good to remember that whatever examples of antagonism there might be in the texts, at the end of the day, the Saxons clearly did their bit. Thanks also for the reference to Jack Sheldon’s post. Those figures are quite shocking; I think I see what you mean. It is going to take me a while to get through that fascinating thread. Many Thanks again.

Thanks very much for the video link aiwac. Very interesting. I believe he Mulligan refers to “fractures within German society being carried over into the Navy”? Though he seems to put this in perspective with caveats against drawing certain conclusions from this.This is an aspect of the Great War I really knew nothing about. Very nice to have such parallels to look into.

Uncle George, Ron, and Nigel. Many thanks for the fascinating discussion on the word “Welschen” used in the area of Austria. Prompted me to try and look a bit further into the etymology. I thought the section on the proto-germanic word “Walha” in this site was quite interesting:

http://www.old-engli.sh/trivia.php?ID=Wales

Thanks again everyone.

Chris

[Uncle George]

I recently read a couple of different books which mentioned the attitude of “Saxon” regiments to the war in early 1915. For example:

“We once faced a Saxon regiment and for nearly two weeks neither side fired a bullet. This particular Saxon regiment said to us: “We are Saxons; You are Anglo-Saxons; we are not a bit fussy about shooting as long as you won’t.”

I am aware of some of the differences between Saxony and Prussia up to this point in history, but I just wondered how far this kind of thinking was true of the differences between the different parts of Germany at the time? Has anyone heard of similar accounts or indeed any other accounts that contradict this?

Cheers,

Chris

I've been racking my brain to remember where I've read similar, and now I have it: 'Regiments and Uniforms of the British Army' by Major R. Money Barnes (1950).

"... a story has been recorded that one regiment erected a notice over its front line trench saying, 'We are Saxons, you are Anglo-Saxons. Do not fire and we will not,' or words to that effect."

[Drew-1918]

Thanks very much for having a think about that, I appreciate it.

A few of these stories seem to be quite similar. I can't help but wonder whether, on the one hand, it is because there is some truth in them, or whether, on the other hand, it is rather that the same general story is being repeated and/or exaggerated in the telling. In a recent thread on the Christmas truce I think it was suggested that this could sometimes be the case. ...Perhaps both scenarios are true.

Cheers again,

Chris

[Tony N]

An interestig thread.

I don't think attitudes have changed a great deal over the years, my wife is from northern Germany and when I worked there I had colleagues from Saxony and Bavaria and they all kept up the tradition although I'd say it was more than likely friendly banter. I was often told "you're English, you're not considered to be a foreigner" which I thought was a nice thing to say.

I wonder how the wife's grandfather got on when he was recruited into a Saxon regiment.

Tony

[Drew-1918]

Cheers Tony,

Very interesting comments. Nice to have the benefit of your experience. Intriguing re your wife’s grandfather!

Many thanks,

Chris

[trajan]

... I don't think attitudes have changed a great deal over the years, my wife is from northern Germany and when I worked there I had colleagues from Saxony and Bavaria and they all kept up the tradition although I'd say it was more than likely friendly banter. I was often told "you're English, you're not considered to be a foreigner" which I thought was a nice thing to say.

In the early 70's, when working in Niedersachsen, I was asked by some of my co-workers why an Englishman like me had an 'echt Preußisches' girlfriend (she and family were from Konigsberg) instead of a nice decent Saxon one! Along similar but more clearly racist lines, they refused to speak of me as a gastarbeiter (which I was) as that term was restricted to Turks...

[egbert]

......, I was asked by some of my co-workers why an Englishman like me had an 'echt Preußisches' girlfriend (she and family were from Konigsberg) instead of a nice decent Saxon one! ........

Tell your friends that the answer is simple: Prussian girls do it better than Saxon girls!

[Uncle George]

I'm not sure if this advances the discussion in any way, but one of the cod advertisements (presumably from a Wipers Times-style trench magazine) quoted in 'A Treasury of Anzac Humour' (1965) by Roger Fair is:

"PRISONERS COLLECTED ON ALL FRONTS

The British Empire Collecting Company beg to notify that they have a large and varied assortment of Prisoners in stock...

The following are a few of our cheap lines:

Saxons 5 francs per dozen

Bavarians 4.50 " " "

Prussian Guards 2 " " "

Staff Officers 1.50 " " "

With Iron Crosses 1 franc per dozen extra."

I wonder at the reasoning behind these relative values.

[Jack Sheldon]

I recently picked up an interesting snippet whilst working on a chapter of my forthcoming Spring 1917 book. It concerns a series of large placards erected in a forward trench just south of the Scarpe (presumably by a unit of 15th (Scottish) Division who were opposite the 11th (Silesian) Division). On 9 April the German defenders read a message, written in German, which was grammatically correct and rhymed: Den Bayern geben wir Bier und Brot, die Schlesier schlagen wir alle tot! [We'll give beer and bread to the Bavarians, but kill every last one of the Silesians!]

[seaforths]

I recently picked up an interesting snippet whilst working on a chapter of my forthcoming Spring 1917 book. It concerns a series of large placards erected in a forward trench just south of the Scarpe (presumably by a unit of 15th (Scottish) Division who were opposite the 11th (Silesian) Division). On 9 April the German defenders read a message, written in German, which was grammatically correct and rhymed: Den Bayern geben wir Bier und Brot, die Schlesier schlagen wir alle tot! [We'll give beer and bread to the Bavarians, but kill every last one of the Silesians!]

The 15th Scottish in the line at the Scarpe in autumn 1917 bombarded the Thuringians with literature on British POW camps. They did get a couple of takers who came over.

[Jack Sheldon]

Interesting to hear that as well. Many thanks.

Jack

[egbert]

I recently picked up an interesting snippet whilst working on a chapter of my forthcoming Spring 1917 book. It concerns a series of large placards erected in a forward trench just south of the Scarpe (presumably by a unit of 15th (Scottish) Division who were opposite the 11th (Silesian) Division). On 9 April the German defenders read a message, written in German, which was grammatically correct and rhymed: Den Bayern geben wir Bier und Brot, die Schlesier schlagen wir alle tot! [We'll give beer and bread to the Bavarians, but kill every last one of the Silesians!]

Having read the signs, the Schlesier most likely did not make any 15th scots prisoners in the upcoming battles.......

[seaforths]

Having read the signs, the Schlesier most likely did not make any 15th scots prisoners in the upcoming battles.......

Indeed. And reading Jack's post, I am relieved my granddad was captured in the autumn and not in the spring by the Schlesier or I might not be posting this!

[m0rris]

Have read many examples of fraternisation between Saxons and British. One where the Saxons throw a note over to warn the British that they'll be "letting off a gun" at a certain time to give them time to get out of the way.

Another fine example is from this letter belonging to a Leicestershire soldier during the Christmas Truce.

"Directly in front of our regiment there were one or two German regiments. On our right was a regiment of Prussian Guards and on our left a Saxon Regiment. On Christmas morning some of our fellows shouted across to them saying that if they would not fire our chaps would meet them halfway between the trenches and spend Christmas Day as friends. They consented to do so. Our chaps at once went out and when in the open the Prussians fired on them, killing two and wounding many more. The Saxons, who behaved like gentlemen, threatened the Prussians if they did the same trick again.Well during Christmas Day our fellows and the Saxons fixed up a table between the two trenches and they spent a happy time together and exchanged souvenirs and presented one another with little keepsakes. They said they would not fire on us as they considered us all English gentlemen and all the while we were opposed to one another they never bothered us at all. They said they did not want war and thought the Kaiser quite in the wrong. They were continually falling out with the Prussians. They are the people who are the cause of the war and hate the English very much indeed. I hope this war will not last long, but our chaps have behaved splendidly all through, and although they have suffered terrible hardships they have always worn a smile'." (Leicester Mercury, January 27, 1915)

[seaforths]

What a revealing letter! It reveals the attitude of Saxons toward British and toward their own countrymen and so early into the war too.

[Drew-1918]

I'm not sure if this advances the discussion in any way, but one of the cod advertisements (presumably from a Wipers Times-style trench magazine) quoted in 'A Treasury of Anzac Humour' (1965) by Roger Fair is:

"PRISONERS COLLECTED ON ALL FRONTS

The British Empire Collecting Company beg to notify that they have a large and varied assortment of Prisoners in stock...

The following are a few of our cheap lines:

Saxons 5 francs per dozen

Bavarians 4.50 " " "

Prussian Guards 2 " " "

Staff Officers 1.50 " " "

With Iron Crosses 1 franc per dozen extra."

I wonder at the reasoning behind these relative values.

Apologies again for being slow to thank people fully for their contributions. My poor excuse is that it is due to being snowed under at work.

‘Uncle George’,

Thanks very much indeed for that. Since that sort of article was meant for a relatively wide audience, I think the authors must be drawing on what they believe are shared ideas and perceptions of the time about the different German contingents. Your quote is thus very relevant I think. Surely it shows us that this idea of the Saxons being, shall we say, more amiable, is something that the readership would understand at the time. I.e. not just isolated reports in a number of later memoirs.

What I thought about it was: If the ‘myths’* about the different German nationalities were believed by many soldiers, it would make the Saxons quite a bit more popular with the British and Empire troops (Or at least, not as unpopular). And we have all read the converse stories about the Prussians in the English language literature and documents. All this might account for the different value attached to each group in the text. Probably similar things to what you were thinking.

*I don’t use the word ‘myth’ to imply that the stories are not true, merely in the sense in which I understand the term, which is as stories that may or may not have a basis in fact. I do so in reference to Phil’s and East Surrey’s reference to how the Saxons could fight very hard when called upon, which might seem to belie the stories we are looking at.

I’m now wondering if perhaps there is a difference between Saxons at rest, and say, Saxons used in attack or defence. In other words, most of the stories we have looked at are when the British or 'Empire' troops are manning a trench system. Sounds like an obvious statement, but you would not get such reports when there is an attack going on from one side or another.

Perhaps also, we are looking at stories from the end of 1914 to the beginning of 1915, when the war had started to settle down into a bit of a stalemate. I wonder if there are any such stories from later on, say 1917 or 1918. I wonder if perceptions changed later on, when the war got more bitter.

Many thanks again for all your comments,

Chris

I recently picked up an interesting snippet whilst working on a chapter of my forthcoming Spring 1917 book. It concerns a series of large placards erected in a forward trench just south of the Scarpe (presumably by a unit of 15th (Scottish) Division who were opposite the 11th (Silesian) Division). On 9 April the German defenders read a message, written in German, which was grammatically correct and rhymed: Den Bayern geben wir Bier und Brot, die Schlesier schlagen wir alle tot! [We'll give beer and bread to the Bavarians, but kill every last one of the Silesians!]

Thanks Jack, Seaforths and Egbert for your very interesting input about the placards.

Can I ask if anyone knows more about the Silesians? I think I may have heard reference to them before, as being thought of in similar terms to the Prussians, but I cannot remember where. Why are they being thought of in this way? As a ‘province’, you might think they would have similar perceptions of the Prussians to the Saxons here quoted. But here they are being represented in a similar light to the Prussians. Were the Silesian contingents made up of Prussians who had moved into the ‘Province’ areas at some time in the past? Or was there a heavy Polish (and/or Czech?) presence? The Silesian aspect seems to add another interesting dimension to this discussion.

Thanks very much,

Chris

[Drew-1918]

Have read many examples of fraternisation between Saxons and British. One where the Saxons throw a note over to warn the British that they'll be "letting off a gun" at a certain time to give them time to get out of the way.

Another fine example is from this letter belonging to a Leicestershire soldier during the Christmas Truce.

"Directly in front of our regiment there were one or two German regiments. On our right was a regiment of Prussian Guards and on our left a Saxon Regiment. On Christmas morning some of our fellows shouted across to them saying that if they would not fire our chaps would meet them halfway between the trenches and spend Christmas Day as friends. They consented to do so. Our chaps at once went out and when in the open the Prussians fired on them, killing two and wounding many more. The Saxons, who behaved like gentlemen, threatened the Prussians if they did the same trick again.Well during Christmas Day our fellows and the Saxons fixed up a table between the two trenches and they spent a happy time together and exchanged souvenirs and presented one another with little keepsakes. They said they would not fire on us as they considered us all English gentlemen and all the while we were opposed to one another they never bothered us at all. They said they did not want war and thought the Kaiser quite in the wrong. They were continually falling out with the Prussians. They are the people who are the cause of the war and hate the English very much indeed. I hope this war will not last long, but our chaps have behaved splendidly all through, and although they have suffered terrible hardships they have always worn a smile'." (Leicester Mercury, January 27, 1915)

Will,

My thanks to you too. As seaforths says, a very early example.

It reminds me of something I read in Jünger. It is not directly relevant to this thread, so please excuse me for quoting it, but I couldn’t help it, as it is so similar to yours:

Referring to the morning of 12^th December 1914, Jünger says,

“When I left the shelter completely sodden the next morning, I couldn’t believe the site that met my eyes. The battlefield that previously had borne the stamp of deathly emptiness upon it was now as animated as a fairground. The occupants of both trenches had emerged from the morass of their trenches on to the top, and already a lively exchange of schnapps, cigarettes, uniform buttons and other items had commenced between the two barbed-wire lines. The throng of Khaki-clad figures emerging from hitherto so apparently deserted English lines seemed as eerie as the appearance of a ghost in daylight.

Suddenly a shot rang out, that laid one of our men dead in the mire, whereupon both sides quickly scuttled back into their trenches. I went to that part of our line which fronted on to the British sap, and called out that I wanted to speak to an officer. And lo, I saw several British soldiers going back, and returning with a young man from their firing trench who had on, as I was able to see through field glasses, a somewhat more ornate cap than they did. We negotiated first in English, then a little more fluently in French, with all the men listening. I reproached him for the fact that one of our men had been killed by a treacherous shot, to which he replied that that hadn’t been his company, but the one adjacent. ‘Il y a des cochons aussi chez vous!’ he remarked when a few shots from the sector next to ours plugged into the ground not far from his head…”

*’There are some unscrupulous b#s@!%ds on your side too!’

From Storm of Steel by Ernest Jünger, Penguin Books, 2004

Jünger was, of course, in the 73^rd Hanoverian Regiment. So I suppose it has some reference here after all.

Many thanks,

Chris

[seaforths]

It is always good to see things from both sides. I have a couple of offerings to add this morning.

This one from Campaign Reminiscences: 6th Battalion Seaforth Higlanders (Peel & MacDonald) on the 3rd Battle of Ypres:

'Its occupants were outwitted and most of them surrendered willingly. Such as did not were accounted for. They proved to be Saxons, and were eager to establish this at once, as if it were to make some difference to their future comfort...The Sixth now discovered enemy resistance was stiffening and casualties were being caused by unlocated snipers. The prisoners that had just been taken were of a different type: they were of the 3rd Reserve Guards Division, whereas in the outposts, all had been Saxons...'

This one from Bewsher's History of the 51st:

'The Germans, possibly the 3rd Guards Division, whom the Highland Division had twice before heavily defeated in the Ypres and Cambrai battles, showed their appreciation of the stubborn resistance offered by the Jocks by floating over to our lines a white paper balloon on which was written, "Good old 51st, still sticking it out".

[Uncle George]

It is always good to see things from both sides.

.

"The Highland regiments - 'devils in skirts'- were especially disliked by the Germans, not least because of their reluctance to take prisoners."

From Niall Ferguson's 'The Pity of War.'

[Drew-1918]

'The Germans, possibly the 3rd Guards Division, whom the Highland Division had twice before heavily defeated in the Ypres and Cambrai battles, showed their appreciation of the stubborn resistance offered by the Jocks by floating over to our lines a white paper balloon on which was written, "Good old 51st, still sticking it out".

Yea! At last, some chit-chat from the Prussians! (Only joking Egbert!).

[egbert]

Yea! At last, some chit-chat from the Prussians! (Only joking Egbert!).

No joking with me, I am a direct Prussian descendant and I still have the serious do-not-make-prisoners genes inside myself .

[JWK]

^ Uh-oh! And I’m venturing into Prussia next week....

I better watch out ! Travel only under the cover of darkness and such things.

Apologies for asking a potentially very stupid question, but what exactly defines whether you are a “Saxon” or a “Prussian”?

“Saxon” I presume comes the Kingdom of Saxony (Dresden and thereabouts) but I’ve also seen it used for Hannoverians e.g.

“Prussian”: I gather that’s not confined to West and East Prussia,.

And what about the Prussian province of Saxony : are they Saxons or Prussians?

I get a bit confused.

[Uncle George]

^ Uh-oh! And Im venturing into Prussia next week....

Apologies for asking a potentially very stupid question, but what exactly defines whether you are a Saxon or a Prussian?

Saxon I presume comes the Kingdom of Saxony (Dresden and thereabouts) but Ive also seen it used for Hannoverians e.g.

Prussian: I gather thats not confined to West and East Prussia,.

And what about the Prussian province of Saxony : are they Saxons or Prussians?

]

This from 'Iron Kingdom' (2006) by Christopher Clark:

"Prussia remained, at the end of its life as in the beginning, a composite of provinces whose identity was substantially independent of their membership within the Prussian polity...Paradoxically (and not only in the Rhineland), the introduction of Prussian governance, with its provincial presidencies and provincial diets, actually reinforced the sense of a distinctive provincial identity...Prussia, as an identity, was ...eroded simultaneously from above (by nationalism) and below (by the regionalist revival)."

So the point you make is a very good one.

[trajan]

No joking with me, I am a direct Prussian descendant and I still have the serious do-not-make-prisoners genes inside myself .

Ah, now I understand - the Egbert ant in its little box is the exception that proves the rule...

[seaforths]

Ah, now I understand - the Egbert ant in its little box is the exception that proves the rule...

oooooohhhh don't get him started It's a louse not an ant. Probably a Prussian one and highly trained at that (it probably doesn't take prisoners either).