Saxon, Prussian and Bavarian attitudes to the war

[Drew-1918]

I recently read a couple of different books which mentioned the attitude of “Saxon” regiments to the war in early 1915. For example:

“We once faced a Saxon regiment and for nearly two weeks neither side fired a bullet. This particular Saxon regiment said to us: “We are Saxons; You are Anglo-Saxons; we are not a bit fussy about shooting as long as you won’t.” So, as our turns came periodically, we faced them and they did not shoot….And such a situation never happened with a Prussian or a Bavarian regiment. Those devils like to shoot for the sake of hearing their rifles go off.”

Private Peat By Harold R. Peat

And Ian Hay refers to some of the German soldiers as having had enough of it:

“Especially the Saxons, who appear to dislike the Prussians even more than ourselves. The other night a voice cried out to us:- “Don’t shoot at us, Jock! Ve vos der Saxons. Der Prussians gomm in on Friday!”

All in it! “K (1) Carries On” By Ian Hay

I am aware of some of the differences between Saxony and Prussia up to this point in history, but I just wondered how far this kind of thinking was true of the differences between the different parts of Germany at the time? Has anyone heard of similar accounts or indeed any other accounts that contradict this?

Cheers,

Chris

[Ron Clifton]

There is a scene in Oh What a Lovely War, during the 1914 Christmas truce, where gunfire begins. A German soldier says "These are your guns" and a Scottish soldier replies "It's the b*****d English, it's no' us."

There are quite a few stories of the type quoted in the OP, often involving Saxons. I think it was part of the general "live and let live" attitude on both sides.

Ron

[Drew-1918]

Thanks very much for your reply Ron. I wondered also about the relationship between the different nationalities of the British Isles, and if there were any similar stories.

I suppose the "live and let live" attitude at the time must have been across many different nationalities and ethnic groups then. I think I read once about some Germans standing up in their trench and posing for a photo after a French request.

I'm sorry, but could you tell me what OP refers to?

Many thank again,

Chris

[Ron Clifton]

Hello Chris

OP is Forum-speak for the original post in a thread.

Ron

[trajan]

Well, the Saxons included the Hannoverians who were part of the 'United Kingdom' until Vicky became queen. and so the stories are certainly plausible!

[Drew-1918]

Thanks Ron,

Feel like a bit of a plonker now. I should have known that. Theres me racking my brains for different military terms it could have been...

Trajan,

That's a good point, I didn't think of that. Now you mention it- didn't Junger's regiment wear some sort of Gibraltar title?

Many thanks for your reply,

Chris

[EastSurrey]

There was certainly a history of animosity between Saxony & Prussia, dating back at least to Frederick the Great. Saxony supported Austria in the War of the Austrian Succession and was invaded and occupied by Fred. in 1756. He then treated it thus- 'Saxony is like a bag of flour. You can always beat it and get it a bit more out' ,or words to that effect. He forcibly enlisted Saxon soldiers into his own units, as well as using all the resources of the country to keep his army going.Prussia and Saxony opposed the French in 1806, but Saxony later threw in its lot with Napoleon, only abandoning him in autumn 1813. It was then punished by losing much territory and population. It was again on the losing side ,with Austria this time, in 1866, but joined in against France in 1870 as a member of the North German Confederation.

Compared with Prussia, Saxony was a more liberal kingdom within the German Empire.

Saxon antagonism towards the Prussians was not the only such antagonism between different states within the Empire, but it seems to have been the most remarked upon.

There are many stories of Saxons being relatively friendly to the British and being regarded by them as the most decent of their opponents. All the same, the Saxons would fight hard if attacked. Andrew Lucas produced three articles on the Saxon 123rd Division for 'Stand To!' and he has followed these up with a book on the Saxons, which I understand is due out in a few months. It will, no doubt, cover much of this ground much more competently , as well as in much more detail, than I have here.

Michael

[Ron Clifton]

The Scots call an Englishman a Sassenach. The Welsh call him Seisneg, and the Cornish call him Sawznack. The common root is Sachsenisch, or Saxon.

Ron

[trajan]

The Scots call an Englishman a Sassenach. The Welsh call him Seisneg, and the Cornish call him Sawznack. The common root is Sachsenisch, or Saxon.

Ron

And for some completely obscure reason the people of Cymru seem to like being called by the Saxon name for them, which is rather derogatory to say the least...

Trajan

PS: Clue - not honouring a bet...

[Drew-1918]

EastSurrey,

Thanks for your all that information. Very interesting indeed and I am going to have a look for Lucas' books.

Ron,

Cheers again for your input. I had heard of the root of the Scottish term, but wasn't at all aware of the Welsh and Cornish equivalents. Very interesting.

Trajan,

Yes, I was always a little curious about how the 'invading' Anglo-Saxons (and that is a statement with many different points that could be argued about) could call the inhabitants of a country 'foreigners!' I believe it was the term for all the Britons before they were 'pushed back' to Wales (again another contentious statement that I don't necessarily support but am writing in the orthodox way for the sake of brevity). Hence Walworth (Welsh Farm), Walcot, Walton etc.

I now wish I had titled this thread 'Different National tensions' or something like that. I think there are many interesting parallels with the U.K., as well as in the German Empire, that you have all started to bring out.

Many thanks again for all your input.

Chris

[seaJane]

My friend's father told her a similar story to the Ian Hay report: his section had been facing a Saxon section, and one night the Saxons called over "Hey Tommy! It won't be so quiet next week, we are going on leave and the Prussians are coming here!"

sJ

[seaforths]

In the same vein is an account of a 6th Seaforth officer after the 51st Div. had just moved into a new area and took over the line and as day broke the next day, they found facing them a placard from the Germans requesting they resume the exchange of newspapers as usual! I am not sure who the Germans were nor of the division that preceded the 51st - I have a feeling they might have been French.

[Drew-1918]

Seajane, Many thanks for that. Very similar to the Hay account. The Allies and the Saxons seem to have had similar views of the Prussians.

Seaforths, Thanks very much too. That's amazing. I wonder how they actually exchanged newspapers. Whether they left them out in no-mans-land overnight or actually swapped them by hand!

Cheers,

Chris

[Ron Clifton]

Not directly relevant to the thread, but there is also a story of a battalion taking over a trench, in circumstances of some secrecy, only to be greeted with the sound of their own regimental March, played by a band in the German trench opposite!

Ron

[SiegeGunner]

It may be apocryphal, but there are plenty of reputed accounts, in the early days of the war, of German units wanting to know the English football results.

[seaforths]

Seajane, Many thanks for that. Very similar to the Hay account. The Allies and the Saxons seem to have had similar views of the Prussians.

Seaforths, Thanks very much too. That's amazing. I wonder how they actually exchanged newspapers. Whether they left them out in no-mans-land overnight or actually swapped them by hand!

Cheers,

Chris

Seems to have been by hand. The French interpreter at the time took it upon himself to go out into no-mans land taking a Cpl or L//Cpl with him and met the Germans. The rest of the men climbed trees to get a better view of the proceedings cue the arrival of the Brigadier who thought he might pay a visit to their new lines. Needless to say, men up trees and a meet with Jerry in no-man's land was what he walked into and it didn't go down very well. I believe the JNCO was disciplined and the Frenchman dismissed but it begs the question - where were the other SNCOs and Officers while this was happening?

[Drew-1918]

Ron,

That’s very amusing. I think your point is very relevant, as it definitely highlights another aspect of the ‘attitudes’ of the time. Thanks a lot.

I have read some similar stories where the Germans seemed to have got hold of information like that. In particular, when the authors seem to think that the Germans have the upper hand with some sort of advanced listening apparatus (and/or because of spies). For example, I think the QVR History refers to the Germans shouting out British passwords in order to taunt them- “Bully Biff, Bully Biff”.

Siege Gunner,

Thank you very much indeed for that. Another different aspect to consider, I had not heard of those incidents before. I will have to look out for those stories. I would love to hear more about them.

Seaforths,

Thanks again. I can just picture the Tommies up in trees having a look, and the Brigadier catching them at it. That’s hilarious. My friend who was in the Greenjackets, said that he and his comrades were just like school boys at times (Actually, I think he said it was most of the time!).

Many thanks everyone for all your help.

Chris

I thought this was interesting from Ludendorff’s My War Memories, 1914-1918 Pg. 261:

“The Ministries of War of Prussia, Bavaria, Saxony and Wurtemberg ranked equal to ourselves. They had their Representatives at G.H.Q., ...It must be clear that not even in the German Army was jealousy wholly non-existant. If any difficulties arose in any part of the field, one national contingent was at times disposed to lay the blame on another... it was only after a long period of nerve-racking toil that a certain spirit of hostility manifested itself between the Bavarians and the Prussians.”

The above is from a part of his ‘Memories’ where he is talking about events from mid to late 1916. Presumably he means these National tensions started to come out in 1917/1918, but there is obviously some evidence of it in early 1915. I don’t know if he is trying to gloss over previous tensions, or if there really was a marked deterioration towards the end of the war. It is entirely plausible of course. Which means that I just wonder how big it was early on. Whether joking with the British about shooting the Prussians counts as banter or not.

[Ron Clifton]

Chris

The Germans were certainly able to intercept British wireless traffic where the equipment was not properly earthed. The British learned to exploit this by passing false information over deliberately badly earthed lines.

Ron

[Ron Clifton]

I dug out the following figures some time ago. The parallels are uncanny:

POPULATION DISTRIBUTION IN THE GERMAN EMPIRE. 1914

PRUSSIA 78 %

BAVARIA 11 %

SAXONY 7 %

WURTTEMBERG 4 %

POPULATION DISTRIBUTION IN THE UNITED KINGDOM. 1914

ENGLAND 75 %

SCOTLAND 11 %

IRELAND 9 %

WALES 5 %

Ron

[Drew-1918]

Wow! I see what you mean. How very interesting. Thanks very much for digging that out. That information certainly sets me thinking.

Cheers also for the info on the unearthed lines. I believe the British and Americans got very adept at the misinformation thing in WWII, perhaps that kind of thing was the start of it (in the sense of modern warfare).

I am really grateful for all your very informative input.

Chris

[phil andrade]

There is an allusion somewhere on the forum - sorry, cannot remember where - to a memorial erected to commemorate the effort made by Saxon soldiers in the Great War.

There was a very explicit theme on the script that emphasised that the loss of life suffered by the soldiers of Saxony was proportionately much greater than the average for Germany as a whole ; the image of the Saxons being reluctant warriors could not be more forcibly dispelled.

Editing : see Jack Sheldon's citation of Saxon commemoration on post 313 of a mammoth thread discussing German casualties on 14th February 2011.

Phil (PJA)

[aiwac]

In this excellent lecture on the Kiel mutinies, Mulligan argues that this antagonism existed in the German Navy, as well. On a side note, I was disheartened by his claim that no-one had done a serious social history of the mutineers on the ships or the docks...

[Uncle George]

EastSurrey,

Thanks for your all that information. Very interesting indeed and I am going to have a look for Lucas' books.

Ron,

Cheers again for your input. I had heard of the root of the Scottish term, but wasn't at all aware of the Welsh and Cornish equivalents. Very interesting.

Trajan,

Yes, I was always a little curious about how the 'invading' Anglo-Saxons (and that is a statement with many different points that could be argued about) could call the inhabitants of a country 'foreigners!' I believe it was the term for all the Britons before they were 'pushed back' to Wales (again another contentious statement that I don't necessarily support but am writing in the orthodox way for the sake of brevity). Hence Walworth (Welsh Farm), Walcot, Walton etc.

I now wish I had titled this thread 'Different National tensions' or something like that. I think there are many interesting parallels with the U.K., as well as in the German Empire, that you have all started to bring out.

Many thanks again for all your input.

Chris

I understand that people of German heritage, who speak German, make up over 60% of the population of the Italian province of South Tyrol. These Germans call the Italians "Welschen."

[Ron Clifton]

Presumably that area was part of Austria prior to 1918?

Ron

[nigelcave]

Yep. Until 1860 the Austrian border extended further south and in the Trentino area included Verona.