Red Cross records to go online 4 August

[Amberdog]

Could anybody help me obtain the further information on this man. He was a German civilian held POW here in the UK. I'm uncertain what to enter to access the additional information. My eyes near popped out last night trying to trawl through it all, but just can't see the name Herman Jeetteman anywhere further.

Most pleased to have found his name at all but I am really struggling with the website format. I've mild dyslexia and I've never come across a more challenging website to search. It's a wonder resource nonetheless.

Many thanks for any help. Cheers - Maria

[KGB]

Two "n" s at end of name surely?

[Martin Feledziak]

Greetings Maria,

I have tried many combinations of the letters and numbers - some take you to lists of Civilian German prisoner pages but that is because you will always open some book just by making any type of wild guess,

However

I do not see an obvious reference number on the index card for your man.

I wonder what 'Black list 5' means -- looks ominous !!

There are also several strange combinations of Roman Numerals.

I am sure we are doing nothing wrong

Keep looking though ...

Martin.

[Svenja]

Hi Martin

There is nothing written about a black list, "voir liste 5" means "see at list 5".

But I also don't know what this roman numerals refer to.

I have researched many prisoner cards of german and french soldiers and also

some of british soldiers, most of them were interned in Switzerland at some time.

If someone of you needs help for translating the cards and lists of your ancestors

I can help you because I speak and write German, French and English.

Regards

Svenja

[Amberdog]

Many thanks for trying to help on my behalf. The roman numerals do have me stumped. But I'll keep working away through their archives. I know Herman was in Scotland as early as 1900 and he was in Edinburgh in 1914. His 1st wife died in Edinburgh in the January that year and I assume he would have become POW by at least the end of 1914. Whether he was held in Scotland througout the war remains to be seen. It would be good to find additional info, especially the area he may have come from in Germany. His name is spelt so many different ways on the records I've found so far it's been impossible to trace his birth in Germany. Thanks again everyone.

[seaforths]

Many thanks for trying to help on my behalf. The roman numerals do have me stumped. But I'll keep working away through their archives. I know Herman was in Scotland as early as 1900 and he was in Edinburgh in 1914. His 1st wife died in Edinburgh in the January that year and I assume he would have become POW by at least the end of 1914. Whether he was held in Scotland througout the war remains to be seen. It would be good to find additional info, especially the area he may have come from in Germany. His name is spelt so many different ways on the records I've found so far it's been impossible to trace his birth in Germany. Thanks again everyone.

There are Foreign Office (FO) files at The National Archives, Kew on POWs. There are several pages of files pertaining to German POWs in FO 383 series which you can search in more detail to see what each file contains via this link:

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=fo+383+german

[44SavageD]

This is my first post on the forum so apologies if I'm in the wrong place. I just wanted to express how thrilled I was to find the article in "Your Family Tree" October issue 147 about "New WWI data online". Thanks to Chris Baker's excellent guide, I was able to find three references for my Grandfather on the 'grandguerre' listings. I was aware that my Grandfather was a POW and I was lucky to find his service record which gave some clues to dates. However, the references helped me to put more detail in context and I was encouraged to contact the KRR Museum to see if family knowledge can be verified and what else I can research. On that note, I am a bit perplexed by the site, 'theGenealogist' because it seems that I need to take up a Diamond subscription without knowing what extra information I can expect to find. For example, I have already been to Kew for his Medal Rolls (pre them being on-line) and have the citation in the London Gazetter for his Military Medal. I would like to know what specific details are available at 'theGenealogist'? I cannot afford another subscription right now until my current one elsewhere runs out. I am hoping there might be a Pay Per View option? I'm not sure that it is possible to distinguish much between common names or whether there is clarification of the Regimental number before accessing the record?

Plus, has anyone covered the abbreviation "Ehefr" - this preceeds my Grandfather's surname in the fourth column (under his birth date and location).

Also, I would be interested to find out what was happening at 'Itaincourt' on 21st March, 1918? It looks like my Grandfather was sent to "Stendal" and then "Stancourt"? He told my father that he was working on a farm, when he escaped. From the dates, it looks like he managed this three days before the end of the war. Apparently, he recognised our guns and worked his way to the edge of the field to make a run for it. Now, I know there were three days to spare, I am more in the picture of the urgency. I would be grateful if anyone could give me any reference to material which would help me research events further.

Many thanks to anyone who may be able to help clarify some of my questions.

Kind Regards,

Karen

[seaforths]

Karen, was he registered at both locations on his Red Cross record? Or Stendal only? It might help if you posted under the POW area of the forum and gave some details about him, such as date of capture and escape etc. There are some files (as I mentioned in my last post on this thread) in the FO 383 series. It is possible that he has a statement in those files and/or WO 161 files. In 1918 there was a lot of attention given to POWs working in the German lines and danger zones which was documented by the Foreign Office (FO) and also articles in the press.

[Phil Evans]

Maria,

If you go to his index card, click on the "More information about this person" tab that comes up when you hover over the card.

That should take you to a new page "2 Details about the person"

On the right hand side are two boxes. The first will give you a drop down menu of letter prefixes. The second is where you type in a number.

If you insert the references below, you will find more details. You will have to scroll up or down as required, because you get taken to what is probably the mid-point of the images. Use the volume and page numbers on the original documents to get to the correct page.

I found all four references to him, but two were just corrections to his name.

All 43 (then find page 43)

Angl 416

D 69 (then find pages 3 and 13)

I could not find List 5. It may not be uploaded yet. I think List 7 was the lowest I could find.

His serial number is 13136.

If you struggle with my poor instructions, get back to me - there are other ways, now I've found them.

Phil

[Martin Feledziak]

Phil

Well done Good work - Were you from Bletchley Park ?
- Now I read Angl 416 - (D69 No Clue )

13136 Herman Jeetemann Carlton Hotel Edinburgh

his index card also has KCK noted so he could have been at that camp

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-isle-of-man-28852137

[44SavageD]

Karen, was he registered at both locations on his Red Cross record? Or Stendal only? It might help if you posted under the POW area of the forum and gave some details about him, such as date of capture and escape etc. There are some files (as I mentioned in my last post on this thread) in the FO 383 series. It is possible that he has a statement in those files and/or WO 161 files. In 1918 there was a lot of attention given to POWs working in the German lines and danger zones which was documented by the Foreign Office (FO) and also articles in the press.

Sorry, but I'm assuming the 'quote' tab is the best way to respond. There are three entries: PA40261, PA39825 and PA36737. PA40261 states "Itaincourt 21.3.1918 Stendal". (My Grandfather was in the "9 Kings Royal Rifles A". The next record PA36737 states "Stancourt 21.3.18" So, it would seem, the location has been ammended. In the final Column under "London" and birthdate is "Henney [?] Norfolk". The third record PA39825 (which seems to be on the back of the index card) is a briefer version of PA36737 and still lists "Stancourt". His service record states he was "missing in the field" between 21-27 March 1918. Plus, "Officially reported Prisoner of War (W.O. List P?? 560 [?] dated 8.11.18. So it is not clear what was happening for the 8 months until I saw these references. Thank you for some indication of other sources because I would like to illustrate this, if possible, for my teenage son and other family members. My Grand-dad passed when I was ten years old and I remember a very fun loving, kind man - to me. However, it is quite sobering to realise - especially from what others have kindly shared - what he must have really experienced.

[seaforths]

Looking at the entries for the PA references, it looks like he quite possibly never saw Germany and was moved around behind the German lines hence his escape. Stendal was one of the German camps used to disguise the fact that men were being kept at the front or at camps in France and Belgium or even unofficial camps in Germany. One of the things that was alerting the British to the existence of these places and that men were being worked to death at the front was the statements made by the escapers.

[44SavageD]

Thank you, 'Seaforths', for your responses. It has given me encouragement to look for more amongst references of a potential statement amongst the series WO161/98-100 at the National Archives. To be honest, I didn't pick up that he had been a POW for long but his records say otherwise. I'm not aware of what the Red Cross inspections consisted of. I guess, as you imply, the Red Cross realised they were being duped by the numbers reported missing at home / not in the field against the numbers they could represent as being held in the camps they were inspecting. I expect that means that my Grand-father had no way of communicating he was still alive. However, knowing my resourceful Grand-dad, he likely would have used it as a way to communicate more. To be on a list, then, I'm assuming it doesn't mean that the Red Cross have personally verified he was all present and correct but, merely, that the German authority had claimed him to be there.

[seaforths]

Some of the men were forced to complete registration cards giving their address as Stendal. Some never made it there. Some were sent there when they were weakened from starvation and exhaustion and arrived in the midst of a major outbreak of typhoid and dysentery. Needless to say, they were so weak that they succumbed to the exposure to these and died. Interesting though, I am trying to locate a man in the Red Cross records who was put to work regarding farming near the Swiss border in an unofficial camp. I have been unable to find him so far but I want to see if he too is registered at Stendal which is of course hundreds of miles away...

[Shiny]

Hi Karen,

Seaforths has helped me a lot with the man I'm researching. He was also listed as being at Stendal and I have newspaper articles saying his family received a red cross postcard from him saying he was there and was well but I'm now convinced he was held behind the lines in a POW labour company and was one of the many that was worked to death. From the books I'm reading at the minute about the subject your Grandfather has been one of the lucky ones to work on a farm and then escape.

One of the things I did find on the red cross records was a line typed on the page my man was on saying "prisoners held in the western staging area" which I think confirms the Stendal story as being a lie. I suspect I'm very luck to see that and it won't be on many but it does show it's worth persevering with your search, there may be something out there which will help you that doesn't need to be paid for.

Good luck,

Michael

[seaforths]

Hi Michael, I just got back on Saturday. I managed to get hold of another couple of personal accounts (Seaforth) while away. Having checked one of them, a Sgt. who wrote in quite a bit of detail about not being able to get the Germans to register them officially, he shows up as having a repat record, nothing else. The other man is same only a repat record. His personal account shows movement all over the place behind the lines.

Wm Batty, ASC still eludes me and I can't find a record for him. British Red Cross made an enquiry on him as being missing. I have his place of death in Germany (an unofficial camp). I am now considering emailing them for help because I can prove he was a POW but I think his name has been mixed up elsewhere under another batch of names or he was never officially registered. I have tried numerous variations but nothing yet. I found another record late last night of one of mine who was also at an unofficial camp a stone's throw away from Batty (according to his personal account) the record is repat only and no registration. As Batty was one of my four men that died geographically quite close together, he obviously won't have a repat record but if like some of the men I am turning up, he wasn't officially registered, he won't have a PA reference either

Two of mine who I originally thought might be escapers are registered at Parchim and Heuberg but died hundreds of miles away at what I now know to be locations of unofficial camps...as I said before, smoke and mirrors for some of these men.

[44SavageD]

Thank you to all your responses. It's such a shame that it's taken this long to be able to access records which may have given us the opportunity to discuss with living relatives. For me, it is important that history is reported with accuracy. I realise how lucky I am to have my Grandfather's service record because I haven't been so fortunate for my maternal Great Grandfather who was killed with the Essex Regiment. Even though, I have been able to see some of the other 'Pals' and have a book written on his Battalion. I am realising now that I shall have to do a lot more reading to be able to understand my Grandfather's records in the Kings Royal Rifles and am prepared to spend some money - on a limited budget - to do it. (I want to get out to France by 1916 with my son to visit a grave.) Also, I have a Naval Service Record of my Great Grandmother's brother who was, apparently a hero of WWI. (There are other soldiers in these family groups to investigate further, too.)

Seaforths: I really appreciate how you are illustrating events because I'm amazed at how much my Grandfather survived. I'm considering what condition he could have been in after being missing in the field for 8 months and imagining the huge risk he took to run away. Clearly it was a risk he felt worth taking. I have managed to download one of the documents on the Red Cross Inspection - in French - at the war end. It includes two pages on Stendal. I was fluent in French when I left school (** years ago ) and can just about make out the conditions were bleak to say the least. My son (Year 9) has an opportunity to visit Ypres in the second half of this school term and I hope he can take this report into his French language lesson, combined with his History class. However, if my Grandfather wasn't at this camp all along, it would be good to be able to illustrate some statistics for the class.

Michael (Shiny): My Grandfather was from Bethnal Green / Stepney, London, so I'm curious what newspapers might have been reporting these types of events. Plus, wondering if you can recommend any reading material / authors, please? Definitely, Family Historians should read between the lines and keep an open mind about the realities. From some of the images I have now, I can realise why these men didn't come home and burden their families. Though, I am aware of some comments he made to his sons going to WWII in order for them to be prepared. Likewise, I want my son to have a truthful account of his History so he can make his own mind up.

Many thanks, again,

Karen Harvey

[seaforths]

Hi Karen, sounds like you will have your hands full with lots of research. Your granddad will probably have been 'missing' on paper but all the while in German hands behind the lines. I still have a lot of files to work through but seem to recall seeing a fair few of them that were prepared to take the risk and make a run for it. They were supposed to be held at least 30km away from the danger zone. When challenged on this by the British during spring 1918 the Germans sais they had transport issues and could not get the men moved away because there were so many of them. I always enjoy doing my research myself but realise that when I'm really stuck or hit a brick wall, there are lots of very helpful and knowledgeable people right here. Good luck with it all and I do hope you manage to find a statement from him - Marjorie.

[Shiny]

Hi Karen,

I'm no expert by any means but the book I'm reading is a real eye opener, it's called violence against prisoners of war in the first world war (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Violence-against-Prisoners-First-World/dp/0521117585). It's quite heavy going but it's well worth persevering with if you want to learn more about that subject.

As far as the newspapers go my local library has a very good index for the local papers and I found the references in there.

Hi Marjorie,

I just got back on Tuesday. I have read about half of the book now, I've just finished the chapter about March 18 and it has really opened my eyes. I have lots of bits of paper stuck in marking pages that I want to include in Fred's history, particularly the stories of them having to eat grass and nettles to survive because of the lack of food.

Those accounts you've found sound really interesting, I would guess they were all moved around a lot so it would add to Fred's story as well.

Michael

[44SavageD]

You know, it's bringing my Grand-dad back in other ways Seaforths (Marjorie) because I'm remembering now how fit he was into old age - even though he smoked and drinked like a trouper. One time, a young lad knocked on his door and asked, "Is Grand-dad coming out to play?" Apparently, he would go out in the street and kick a ball about with them. So, although he couldn't have been at his fittest as a POW, it doesn't surprise me that he would sieze the opportunity to bolt if the odds were in his favour.

Thank you, Michael, for the book recommendation. That one's on my Christmas list. I, too, would like to ensure that Grand-dad's history is written up in a way that does his efforts justice.

Keep up the good work, folks, our men would be proud.

Karen.

[SamCurt]

With regard to the PoW cards' Gazette des Ardennes reference numbers, does anyone know what system the Red Cross staff were using?

For 2nd Lt N H Marshall (RAF), one of his cards is annotated:

"G.d.A. 57. 19.7.18. 2nd Lt. Nelson Hopburn [sic] Marshall brought down 14.7.18.(unwounded)"

I have found the actual Gazette issue this refers to, he's on page 2, but it doesn't have a 57 on it:

"4e Année - No 683, 5 pfennig, Charleville, le 19 Juillet 1918"

Any ideas?

Sam

[Shiny]

The mention of Ripon or Clipstone has set me thinking. Were these the only POW demob centres in the country? I have searched the forum before this post and seen lots of references but nothing to answer my question.

Hi Steve,

I'm reading a book called "Violence against prisoners in the First World War" by Heather Jones and have just found a line that says "The British abandoned certain formalities in order the men could reach home as soon as possible - clearing the interview and quarantine process to just a day or two at the main repatriation centers set up at Dover, Leith, Canterbury and Ripon".

I've cut a few words out and I know it's not demob centres as it also says they were given 30 days leave, or 60 days if they had been prisoners for more than 2 years, so they must have reported back somewhere at the end of that leave but I thought it may be of interest to you.

Michael

[sdjknox]

Michael,

Thanks for your comments about the interview and quarantine processes for POWs and the main repatriation centres. All parts of WW1 which I had no knowledge of but the GWF continues my education!

Regards,

Steve

[The Owlman]

Hi folks

I have been searching for my Grandad for some years now, family legends about false name, which unit etc muddied the waters somewhat. He was supposedly an A&S man and several members tried to help place him. From the ICRC records and cross referencing with a family genealogy project (that caused arguments oh boy!!) I have now 99% placed him as Private James Taylor MGC not A&S. His ICRC records note he was wounded and captured in the German counterattack at Cambrai 1917, he was in the 166th MGC, part of the 55(W Lancs) Div. which was overrun. He spent 6 mths in a Lazarett (German for reserve hospital a pre-war regular army hospital) and then into Alt Damm.

The ICRC names are not in order as previously posted, I am searching for several names and have just one to find. If you know the prison and the month, year captured (and this is a grind) if you find a name around the same date listed in the prison your chap was in then you can go to the beginning of the book and check each entry as the names are not in order. I found 4 entries for an RND man including details of his hospital in the UK when he came back in 1918. trying different spellings is also good, remember the officials checking were not British and spelt names phonetically in many cases. Trying regimentally or grouped regiments eg A&S, Black Watch etc can bring up misplaced cards. Last thing to remember when frustrated - the ICRC were not thinking of family history when compiling records they were trying to ensure relatives were informed of their kin.

Regards to all especially Stuart, LIT and all the guys that offered help.

Owlman

[yannickvanlierde]

It also would be handy to have a tool to work the other way around,

For local history purposes, I am researching the bigger picture.

I found references that on the 11th november, about 300 British POW's where released near my hometown.

Also, my old school was a transit camp for British and Portuguese soldiers, probably during the Spring Offensive,

And in a nearby quarry, it is rumoured that Italian and Russian POW's were put to work.

On the other side of the front, some German soldiers where taken prisoner those last days of the war near my hometown.

For research purposes, it could be handy to know which regiments they belonged to.

I hope an index of those different archives and numbers with dates and locations will be released to the public,

I have the impression that the ICRC has this kind of tool, because they where able to pinpoint dates in records

when asked.

That way, also individual persons can be found easier if not found by name.

The rest of the site works as a glove.

In the records which have already been released I was able to find almost all the Commonwealth

and French soldiers who died as POW's in one of the two kriegslazaretten located in Grammont.

kudos for the ICRC for doing this!