Devonport, 1914

[Uncle George]

Some years ago I worked as an archaeologist, excavated in the Brickfields looking for the Glacis and other work in the Cumberland Block and Raglan Barracks, gatehouse.

TEW

Hi TEW

I meant to ask, what was the project you were working on, and was anything published?

Thanks

UG

[Guest]

Yes, I have attached a map of Devonport. As you will see at this time (1860s I believe) it was a walled town. The walls came down in the 1880s but Devonport to this day is remarkably self-contained - it is not conceivable that the battalion was based at Crownhill. Raglan Barracks was built on the site of the old barracks marked on the map: the Guildhall is adjacent to Ker Street. (A stone's throw from each other, in other words.)

UG

Can I ask the source of the map?

Edit: I have always been fascinated in the complex layout of the dockyard fortifications and the maths and geometry behind this - I studied maths, then architecture at university. Much of the complexity of Great War period trenches had an atavistic link with what might be termed Vauban-esque military architecture and in particular the fortification plans or 'lines' similar to the ones in your map. Royal Engineers would have been as familiar with the principles of design of these structures as they were with trench geometry.

If anyone has an interest in military architecture and specifically the architecture of barracks and dockyards there are a number of interesting books:

1. Historic Architecture of the Royal Navy by Jonathan Coad - covers the dockyards and their barracks in detail.

2. Fortress Britain: Artillery Fortification in the British Isles and Ireland by Andrew Saunders

3. British Barracks 1600-1914: Their Architecture and Role in Society. MG

[Uncle George]

UG

Can I ask the source of the map?

MG

Here it is Martin, "Drawn and engraved by J Rapkin"

http://www.cyber-heritage.co.uk/maps/mayflower.htm

[Uncle George]

UG

Can I ask the source of the map?

Edit: I have always been fascinated in the complex layout of the dockyard fortifications and the maths and geometry behind this - I studied maths, then architecture at university. Much of the complexity of Great War period trenches had an atavistic link with what might be termed Vauban-esque military architecture and in particular the fortification plans or 'lines' similar to the ones in your map. Royal Engineers would have been as familiar with the principles of design of these structures as they were with trench geometry.

If anyone has an interest in military architecture and specifically the architecture of barracks and dockyards there are a number of interesting books:

1. Historic Architecture of the Royal Navy by Jonathan Coad - covers the dockyards and their barracks in detail.

2. Fortress Britain: Artillery Fortification in the British Isles and Ireland by Andrew Saunders

3. British Barracks 1600-1914: Their Architecture and Role in Society. MG

Thank you for mentioning these books.

A small stretch of the Devonport Wall (the Wall was known as 'The Lines') still stands. The wall overlooks what was the glacis and is now a park. As a child I would play football at its foot and wonder at it, high and black, as it looked at me disapprovingly. Going into the walled, moated, gated old Town of Devonport as my forebears did must have been like entering a prison.

[Stebie9173]

Just to confirm, the Northamptons did not arrive in Devonport until February 1911 when they were nearly all granted leave (and thus at "home") for the 1911 Census. I have come very late to this, and although it looks like the job is done, I will double check the Regimental history to see if there is any note of a similar parade (if needed!).

Steve.

[Uncle George]

Just to confirm, the Northamptons did not arrive in Devonport until February 1911 when they were nearly all granted leave (and thus at "home") for the 1911 Census. I have come very late to this, and although it looks like the job is done, I will double check the Regimental history to see if there is any note of a similar parade (if needed!).

Steve.

Thank you Steve.

Attached is South Staff casualties, from Tyne Cot.

[Guest]

Thank you Steve.

Attached is South Staff casualties, from Tyne Cot.

I suspect many of the young men on parade that day became casualties before the end on 1914. The 1st Bn fatalities were 270 by end 1914 and 538 by end 1915 with over 200% of war establishment passing through its ranks. This suggests that most would likely have been killed or wounded fairly early on. Fatalities for battalions that disembarked in 1914 were probably the worst of any cohort during the war.

The 1st Bn was in South Africa by 1914 and did not land until early Oct 1914, yet as part of the ill fated 7th Div they had a torrid time at Ypres. Within a month of landing the battalion had lost 243 men killed, suggesting around 75% would have been battle casualties. By 10th Nov casualties were so high that it was taken out of the line and sent off as Corps reserve - a usual sign that a battalion had been annihilated. Of the 100 or so battalions in theatre in Oct-Nov for 1st Ypres, the 1st Bn South Staffs had one of the highest fatal casualty rates. The diary had large chunks missing but remains one of the most detailed of the BEF during 1914.

MG

[Uncle George]

I suspect many of the young men on parade that day became casualties before the end on 1914. The 1st Bn fatalities were 270 by end 1914 and 538 by end 1915 with over 200% of war establishment passing through its ranks. This suggests that most would likely have been killed or wounded fairly early on. Fatalities for battalions that disembarked in 1914 were probably the worst of any cohort during the war.

The 1st Bn was in South Africa by 1914 and did not land until early Oct 1914, yet as part of the ill fated 7th Div they had a torrid time at Ypres. Within a month of landing the battalion had lost 243 men killed, suggesting around 75% would have been battle casualties. By 10th Nov casualties were so high that it was taken out of the line and sent off as Corps reserve - a usual sign that a battalion had been annihilated. Of the 100 or so battalions in theatre in Oct-Nov for 1st Ypres, the 1st Bn South Staffs had one of the highest fatal casualty rates. The diary had large chunks missing but remains one of the most detailed of the BEF during 1914.

MG

Thank you for this. I think of the words I wrote at the commencement of this Thread:

"And the young men formed up to our left. Shortly, surely, part of the BEF. Look how smart they are. One thinks of Robert Service's 'Tipperary Days'..."

Oh, weren't they the fine boys! You never saw the beat of them,

Singing all together with their throats bronze-bare;

Fighting-fit and mirth-mad, music in the feet of them,

Swinging on to glory and the wrath out there.

Laughing by and chaffing by, frolic in the smiles of them,

On the road, the white road, all the afternoon;

Strangers in a strange land, miles and miles and miles of them,

Battle-bound and heart-high, and singing this tune:

It's a long way to Tipperary,

It's a long way to go;

It's a long way to Tipperary,

And the sweetest girl I know.

Good-bye, Piccadilly,

Farewell, Lester Square:

It's a long, long way to Tipperary,

But my heart's right there.

"Come, Yvonne and Juliette! Come, Mimi, and cheer for them!

Throw them flowers and kisses as they pass you by.

Aren't they the lovely lads! Haven't you a tear for them

Going out so gallantly to dare and die?

What is it they're singing so? Some high hymn of Motherland?

Some immortal chanson of their Faith and King?

`Marseillaise' or `Brabanc,on', anthem of that other land,

Dears, let us remember it, that song they sing:

"C'est un chemin long `to Tepararee',

C'est un chemin long, c'est vrai;

C'est un chemin long `to Tepararee',

Et la belle fille qu'je connais.

Bonjour, Peekadeely!

Au revoir, Lestaire Squaire!

C'est un chemin long `to Tepararee',

Mais mon coeur `ees zaire'."

The gallant old "Contemptibles"! There isn't much remains of them,

So full of fun and fitness, and a-singing in their pride;

For some are cold as clabber and the corby picks the brains of them,

And some are back in Blighty, and a-wishing they had died.

And yet it seems but yesterday, that great, glad sight of them,

Swinging on to battle as the sky grew black and black;

But oh their glee and glory, and the great, grim fight of them! --

Just whistle Tipperary and it all comes back:

It's a long way to Tipperary

(Which means "'ome" anywhere);

It's a long way to Tipperary

(And the things wot make you care).

Good-bye, Piccadilly

('Ow I 'opes my folks is well);

It's a long, long way to Tipperary --

('R! Ain't War just 'ell?)

[TEW]

Hi TEW

I meant to ask, what was the project you were working on, and was anything published?

Thanks

UG

In truth we are talking about 15 years ago. I can remember working at Brickfields playing fields on more than one occasion, Cumberland Block (Mt Wise?) at least once, in Brickfields Close opposite Mt Wise on two occasions, at The Citadel watching gas pipe relaying, King William Victualing Yard for maybe a month, Staddon Heights (Golf Course) and at least two other military locations that I can't recall.

This was back in the day under Planning Policy Guidance 16 (now defunct), where developers etc had little say in the matter over archaeological input for new grandstands, penthouse flats, gas pipes, water pipes etc. The final report was actually the property of the company involved and as such not in the public domain. Copies would have been kept by Devon County Council and Plymouth City Council but only for their own use. Sometimes, abbreviated versions end up on the Historic Environment Record, either with DCC or the ADS. I've had a look and can find nothing.

What I have managed to find is from Plymouth City Council.

A short history on the Dock Lines.

​Devonport, a characterisation study. Some interesting maps & plans included.

Conservation report on The Citadel. With early maps and plans.

Plymouth (Devonport etc) is odd in having an unusually early set of OS 1:500 maps not intended for public use. The ones I've found refs. for are 1856, they are odd in that they do not correspond to the later series circa 1880's (confusingly called the 1st Series OS). The sheets are numbered differently, have different borders so comparing the 1856 and 1880 maps can get complex eg something in the centre of the 1856 map maybe on the edge of the 1880 one. I have a feeling the later series omit things shown on the 1856 for security purposes.

Being at 1:500 the detail can be incredible, even different types of drain, manhole covers, road grates are annotated.

As a final offering, I guess you've noticed these loopholes in Cumberland Road facing east to fight off those invading Frenchies.

TEW

[Uncle George]

In truth we are talking about 15 years ago. I can remember working at Brickfields playing fields on more than one occasion, Cumberland Block (Mt Wise?) at least once, in Brickfields Close opposite Mt Wise on two occasions, at The Citadel watching gas pipe relaying, King William Victualing Yard for maybe a month, Staddon Heights (Golf Course) and at least two other military locations that I can't recall.

This was back in the day under Planning Policy Guidance 16 (now defunct), where developers etc had little say in the matter over archaeological input for new grandstands, penthouse flats, gas pipes, water pipes etc. The final report was actually the property of the company involved and as such not in the public domain. Copies would have been kept by Devon County Council and Plymouth City Council but only for their own use. Sometimes, abbreviated versions end up on the Historic Environment Record, either with DCC or the ADS. I've had a look and can find nothing.

What I have managed to find is from Plymouth City Council.

A short history on the Dock Lines.

​Devonport, a characterisation study. Some interesting maps & plans included.

Conservation report on The Citadel. With early maps and plans.

Plymouth (Devonport etc) is odd in having an unusually early set of OS 1:500 maps not intended for public use. The ones I've found refs. for are 1856, they are odd in that they do not correspond to the later series circa 1880's (confusingly called the 1st Series OS). The sheets are numbered differently, have different borders so comparing the 1856 and 1880 maps can get complex eg something in the centre of the 1856 map maybe on the edge of the 1880 one. I have a feeling the later series omit things shown on the 1856 for security purposes.

Being at 1:500 the detail can be incredible, even different types of drain, manhole covers, road grates are annotated.

As a final offering, I guess you've noticed these loopholes in Cumberland Road facing east to fight off those invading Frenchies.

TEW

Thank you so much for this.

It so happens that I worked for the MoD at Mount Wise in the late 90s - so we may have been to the same pub at the same time! ( The Shakespeare?)

I have (fragments of) a mid 1850s Devonport map, and the detail is astonishing (trees, bushes). But great swathes of white where the Dockyard is, and no detail at all at other sites like the Blockhouse at Stoke (where I played as a boy).

I shall read what you have attached with great interest.

Again, thank you very much indeed.

UG

[Uncle George]

To bring this Thread to an end, I have attached Devonport's Great War Memorial. Unveiled by Field Marshal Lord Methuen in 1923, it commemorates over 2,000 Devonport men and women who died in the War.

"Although part of an amalgamated Plymouth since the start of the war, Devonport somehow contrived to erect their own obelisk ... [which] even included a bronze plaque sporting the old Devonport borough arms on one side of the stonework." ('Plymouth's Great War - the Three Towns United in Conflict', by Chris Robinson.)

[Uncle George]

DELETED

 

 

 

 

Edited 16 October , 2017 by Uncle George
Zero response after three days.

[Lawryleslie]

On 31/07/2014 at 14:55, Uncle George said:

The year 1914 was Devonport's last as an independent town. Until that year the neighbouring towns of Devonport, Stonehouse and Plymouth had led fiercely independent lives: but with the coming of the War the Admiralty and the Army had felt the need of only one civic authority with which to deal. So in 1914 the "Three Towns" were amalgamated into 'Plymouth'.

 

Here we are outside Devonport Guildhall. (The Guildhall by a miracle survived the Blitz, and still stands.) The men formed up to our right are Devonport's Finest: the Devonport Borough Police. (My great-grandfather, David Moore, was a sergeant in the Devonport Borough Police.)

 

And the young men formed up to our left. Shortly, surely, part of the BEF. Look how smart they are. One thinks of Robert Service's 'Tipperary Days':

 

"Oh, weren't they the fine boys! You never saw the beat of them,

Singing altogether with their throats bronze-bare;

Fighting-fit and mirth-mad, music in the feet of them,

Swinging on to glory and the wrath out there.

...

"The gallant old 'Contemptibles'! There isn't much remains of them,

So full of fun and fitness, and a-singing in their pride..."

 

Is there any way we can tell, from their uniform, to what regiment these men belonged? Any help would be much appreciated.

 

Not wishing to be a pedant but the amalgamation in 1914 was of Plymouth, Devonport and East Stonehouse and not Stonehouse.

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Lawryleslie said:

Not wishing to be a pedant but the amalgamation in 1914 was of Plymouth, Devonport and East Stonehouse and not Stonehouse.

 

     And I believe the civic charter was from Pariament, not a Royal Charter -to commemorate Plymouth's stand for the cause of Parliament in the Civil War (Mount Wise,Freedom Fields,etc).  Ah, the good old days when Plympton St Mary Rural District Council (wot where I used to live) went all the way up to Mutley Plain.  And for oddities-well, the number of members of my family born on the western side of Plymouth Sound but in Devonshire-the bit that was only part of Cornwall from 1859 or so.

 

      Local government boundaries?  Pah!!

[Uncle George]

30 minutes ago, Lawryleslie said:

Not wishing to be a pedant but the amalgamation in 1914 was of Plymouth, Devonport and East Stonehouse and not Stonehouse.

 

Yes that is pedantic! No-one in Plymouth ever refers to Stonehouse as 'East Stonehouse'.

 

You no doubt know that West Stonehouse was on the opposite side of the Tamar, and was destroyed by the French in the 14th century.

 

And that Stonehouse stood for the King during the Civil War, while Plymouth was staunch for the Parliament. 

Edited 29 October , 2017 by Uncle George

[Uncle George]

Just to square things away: my deleted post was a request for assistance in identifying the regiment of the officer standing alone and palely loitering on the Guildhall steps. With the help of the Victorian Wars Forum it has been established that he is the Chief Constable of the Devonport Borough Police, John Watson. 

[Lawryleslie]

20 hours ago, Uncle George said:

 

Yes that is pedantic! No-one in Plymouth ever refers to Stonehouse as 'East Stonehouse'.

 

You no doubt know that West Stonehouse was on the opposite side of the Tamar, and was destroyed by the French in the 14th century.

 

And that Stonehouse stood for the King during the Civil War, while Plymouth was staunch for the Parliament. 

Wikipedia.......the font of all knowledge. Well read. Where did I say that the area is referred to as East Stonehouse?  As a Plymouthian  I know this, however it still remains that the 1914 amalgamation was of Plymouth, Devonport and East Stonehouse.

Edited 30 October , 2017 by Lawryleslie

[Captain Chip]

I know that the unit I am looking into, the 2nd Battalion Royal Irish Regiment, was based at Devonport. But I don't think that is the unit in the picture.

[FROGSMILE]

32 minutes ago, Captain Chip said:

I know that the unit I am looking into, the 2nd Battalion Royal Irish Regiment, was based at Devonport. But I don't think that is the unit in the picture.

Which picture are you referring to and on what exact basis have you decided, evidence wise, that it isn’t the Royal Irish Regiment in that picture?

[Captain Chip]

On 31/07/2014 at 09:55, Uncle George said:

The year 1914 was Devonport's last as an independent town. Until that year the neighbouring towns of Devonport, Stonehouse and Plymouth had led fiercely independent lives: but with the coming of the War the Admiralty and the Army had felt the need of only one civic authority with which to deal. So in 1914 the "Three Towns" were amalgamated into 'Plymouth'.

 

Here we are outside Devonport Guildhall. (The Guildhall by a miracle survived the Blitz, and still stands.) The men formed up to our right are Devonport's Finest: the Devonport Borough Police. (My great-grandfather, David Moore, was a sergeant in the Devonport Borough Police.)

 

And the young men formed up to our left. Shortly, surely, part of the BEF. Look how smart they are. One thinks of Robert Service's 'Tipperary Days':

 

"Oh, weren't they the fine boys! You never saw the beat of them,

Singing altogether with their throats bronze-bare;

Fighting-fit and mirth-mad, music in the feet of them,

Swinging on to glory and the wrath out there.

...

"The gallant old 'Contemptibles'! There isn't much remains of them,

So full of fun and fitness, and a-singing in their pride..."

 

Is there any way we can tell, from their uniform, to what regiment these men belonged? Any help would be much appreciated.

 

This photo. And I don't believe that was their uniform in 1914. 

[FROGSMILE]

37 minutes ago, Captain Chip said:

This photo. And I don't believe that was their uniform in 1914. 

Right I see what you’re referring to now.

The dress worn by the guard of honour on the left is correct winter order full dress ceremonial for the ‘home service’ battalion of the Royal Irish Regiment right up until the declaration of war.  Greatcoats, blue universal helmet for home service and scarlet tunic with blue facings, plus dark trousers with a quarter inch outer scarlet welt.

It’s a good idea to do some proper research before making bold statements.

Edited 7 January by FROGSMILE

[Uncle George]

5 hours ago, Captain Chip said:

This photo. And I don't believe that was their uniform in 1914. 

This thread established that the photograph is of the 1st Battalion, South Staffordshire Regiment on 9th May 1910. Except for the chap standing alone and palely loitering on the Guildhall steps, who is the Chief Constable of the Devonport Borough Police.

[FROGSMILE]

15 minutes ago, Uncle George said:

This thread established that the photograph is of the 1st Battalion, South Staffordshire Regiment on 9th May 1910. Except for the chap standing alone and palely loitering on the Guildhall steps, who is the Chief Constable of the Devonport Borough Police.

Indeed it did.  Just to be clear, the point I was making was that the uniform of the guard of honour was perfectly appropriate for the Royal Irish Regiment (i.e. the same as other line infantry regiments), with the caveat that the greatcoats concealed tunic facings and regimental insignia.  I’m sorry if the context of that wasn’t clear from the thread in its entirety, rather than this last bit.  In short the thread was already complete and accurate before today’s addition. 

Edited 7 January by FROGSMILE

[Captain Chip]

My bad. I keep quiet then.