Devonport, 1914

[FROGSMILE]

The officer in tunic may be a scarlet herring of course, in that the very basic rule was that officers dressed in the same order of dress as the men. This is laid down here there and everywhere. Therefore he may be an officer from another unit who did not get the text.

By the way, it is very likely that those in greatcoat have little more than a greyback shirt beneath it. This is certainly the case for modern soldiery on ceremonial duty ........ almost anything goes. There are numerous anecdotes about guardsmen wearing outrageous T shirts for example.

Another "by the way".

Fixed bayonets often imply Freedom of the City/ Borough. Would this narrow the field?

I agree that the officer is merely circumstantial.

You have mentioned a key point regarding bayonets, although the rule relates strictly to marching "through" a city or borough with bayonets fixed and colours flying, etc. At a static parade in a specific location, when a dignitary is present, bayonets are often fixed.

[TEW]

Maybe a bit early but Royal Warwicks were there circa 1903.

Are we assuming they must be one of the two regiments based in Raglan Barracks, Devonport. Depending on the event might they not be from Mt Wise, The Citadel or further afield??

The Royal Scots Lothian Regiment were in Mt Wise in 1913

TEW

[FROGSMILE]

Maybe a bit early but Royal Warwicks were there circa 1903.

Are we assuming they must be one of the two regiments based in Raglan Barracks, Devonport. Depending on the event might they not be from Mt Wise, The Citadel or further afield??

The Royal Scots Lothian Regiment were in Mt Wise in 1913

TEW

You have really exemplified how difficult it is to pin down a unit given the number of garrisons and absence of a specified date.

[gordon92]

I notice that the officer at the top of the stairs is wearing either a buff waistbelt or a laced waistbelt, probably the latter. If a regular officer, he would have been wearing a sash around the waist post 1903. If pre-1903 he should have a shoulder sash, but I cannot discern one in the photo. With this anomaly in mind, I think there is a strong chance that this officer is from a Volunteer battalion. If so, the connection to the troops below is tenuous at best and seems to be that "scarlet herring."

[Guest]

The Royal Scots Lothian Regiment were in Mt Wise in 1913

TEW

If that was the case, the photo would have to be before 1904 as the Royal Scots ceased wearing the Blue Cloth Helmet in 1904. (ref KK Chapter 9 "The Cloth Helmet: Officers' Badges of 1881 to 1914" page 120). Incidentally the Royal Scots Officers' helmet plate with an Imperial crown is one of the rarest helmet plates, having only been worn for 2 years there were probably less than 60 ever made. None have appeared in auction in the last 13 years to my knowledge.

The other Plymouth based battalion in Aug 1914 was the 1st Bn Gordon Highlanders which can be eliminated for obvious reasons.

The OP intimated the photo was 1914. Some supporting evidence would be welcome. I still cling to the idea that it was nearer to 1914 than 1903 (picture quality) and still think 2nd Bn RIR is the most likely. The only caveat is gordon92's suggestion that it might be a VB (and therefore pre 1908) based on the scarlet herring and his lack of sash. I have no idea what a VB shoulder title would look like but the only realistic contender would be the 2nd VB Devonshires which became the 5th (Prince of Wales's) Bn The Devonshire Regt.

I collect Officer's helmet plates from this period and the VBs were usually silver plated (OR's white metal) with additional VB scrolls to distinguish them from the regulars (usually mercury vapour gilt or gilding metal = yellow in colour). The photo makes the helmet plates look white metal. I have no idea how gilt would look in a B&W photo

I don't have a KC version but here is the QVC version of the RIR from my collection.

Greater certainty on a date would help. A lot.

MG

[Guest]

..By way of contrast, a typical VB helmet plate in white metal (silver for officers) this example Y&L. These are reasonably rare as the KC and VB overlap was only 6 years.

[FROGSMILE]

I notice that the officer at the top of the stairs is wearing either a buff waistbelt or a laced waistbelt, probably the latter. If a regular officer, he would have been wearing a sash around the waist post 1903. If pre-1903 he should have a shoulder sash, but I cannot discern one in the photo. With this anomaly in mind, I think there is a strong chance that this officer is from a Volunteer battalion. If so, the connection to the troops below is tenuous at best and seems to be that "scarlet herring."

That's a very good spot regarding the absence of a waist sash and it seems possible to me that he is a warrant officer, (perhaps the RSM, as the bandmaster would be unlikely in that position), who would have worn officer pattern tunic and head dress, but no waist sash and a buff belt and slings instead, albeit with a silk shoulder sash that might not be clear at a distance. He might have a stick in his right hand, but unfortunately it is obscured. He could also be a warrant officer from one of the arms and services if the cuff embellishment fits and there would have been no shoulder sash.

Bear in mind that there were no volunteer battalions after 1908, by which time they had become Territorial Force, but the dress distinctions remained largely the same and so would still apply.

[gordon92]

That's a very good spot regarding the absence of a waist sash and it seems possible to me that he is a warrant officer, (perhaps the RSM, as the bandmaster would be unlikely in that position), who would have worn officer pattern tunic and head dress, but no waist sash and a buff belt and slings instead, albeit with a silk shoulder sash that might not be clear at a distance. He might have a stick in his right hand, but unfortunately it is obscured. He could also be a warrant officer from one of the arms and services if the cuff embellishment fits and there would have been no shoulder sash.

Bear in mind that there were no volunteer battalions after 1908, by which time they had become Territorial Force, but the dress distinctions remained largely the same and so would still apply.

The cuff embellishments appear to be some sort of Austrian knot atop a horizontal strand of lace and definitely not the inverted V lace pattern on a tunic of a regular line infantry officer. I assume, not knowing for sure, that a regular line warrant officer would have the same inverted V pattern with the lace of thinner width. The pattern seen in the photo seems typical for VB/TF officers pre-1914.

[Muerrisch]

That's a very good spot regarding the absence of a waist sash and it seems possible to me that he is a warrant officer, (perhaps the RSM, as the bandmaster would be unlikely in that position), who would have worn officer pattern tunic and head dress, but no waist sash and a buff belt and slings instead, albeit with a silk shoulder sash that might not be clear at a distance. He might have a stick in his right hand, but unfortunately it is obscured. He could also be a warrant officer from one of the arms and services if the cuff embellishment fits and there would have been no shoulder sash.

Bear in mind that there were no volunteer battalions after 1908, by which time they had become Territorial Force, but the dress distinctions remained largely the same and so would still apply.

I don't think there is a sash as the button count is complete ........ possible but not likely.

We have collectively sucked the photo dry and are no nearer the truth I fear.

[Guest]

Unless we can narrow the dates the list of potential battalions will grow (see below). The only other clues might be in the architecture. The police station to the immediate left is not on all the photos of the Guidlhall on the web. Similarly the ornate lamp-posts are not on every photo. There is a remote possibility that identifying when these features were added or taken away we might tighten the dates. A long shot.

With reagrds to the potential candidates for the battalions - if the photo date could be as early as 1902-03 this opens the possibility of three battalions per barracks as candidates. Two barracks in Devonport makes six potential battalions. If we consider Plymouth as suggested by TEW, that would add anothe six potential candidates over that time. The VB or TF adds another possibility making 13. Some can be eliminated on uniform or detail (see below) but the list remains long. Unless we can pin-point the date or at least narrow the date (assuming the red-coat is a scarlet herring, I suspect we will not get much closer.

1. Devonport - South Raglan Barracks

a. A battalion (as yet unidentified) that preceded the 1st Bn Northamptonshire Regt

b. 1st Bn Northamptonshire Regt............from ??? 19?? to Nov 1913

c. 2nd Bn Royal Irish Regt......................from Nov 1913 to Aug 1914

2. Devonport - North Raglan Barracks

d. 2nd Bn R Warwickshire Regt..............from ??? ???? to Sep 1904

e. 1st Bn Leinster Regt...........................from Oct 1904 to Sep 1911

f. 4th Bn Middlesex Regt........................from Sep 1911 to Aug 1914

3. Devonport:

g. 2nd VB Devonshire Regt..............from 1881 to Mar 1908

h. 5th Bn Devonshire Regt (TF).............from Apr 1908 to Aug 1914....can be eliminated on shoulder title (no T or 5 for 5th BnTF)

4. Plymouth Crown Hill Barracks (two battalions)

i. A battalion that preceded the 2nd Bn Sherwood Forseters - as yet unidentified.

j. 2nd Bn Sherwood Forsesters ...........from ??? 19?? to Sep 1913....can be eliminated on shoulder title?

k. 1st Bn Gordon Highlanders ..............from Oct 1913 to Aug 1914......can be eliminated due to highland uniform

l. A battalion or battalions that preceded the 2nd Bn Royal Scots - as yet unidentified.

m. 2nd Bn Royal Scots ..........................from ??? 19?? to Aug 1914.....only possible if taken before 1904 as RS no longer wore the BCH after that date. Unlikely that RS was in station for 10 years.

[JOHN BALL]

If this is of any use,the official amalgamation of the three towns took place in November 1914.

[FROGSMILE]

I don't think there is a sash as the button count is complete ........ possible but not likely.

We have collectively sucked the photo dry and are no nearer the truth I fear.

Yes, looking again I think that you are right about the shoulder sash.

[FROGSMILE]

The cuff embellishments appear to be some sort of Austrian knot atop a horizontal strand of lace and definitely not the inverted V lace pattern on a tunic of a regular line infantry officer. I assume, not knowing for sure, that a regular line warrant officer would have the same inverted V pattern with the lace of thinner width. The pattern seen in the photo seems typical for VB/TF officers pre-1914.

Yes, the warrant officer embellishment was a simpler knot in thinner lace.

The problem with VB/TF officers is that they would all be wearing a pouch belt in full dress and as you pointed out none is apparent.

Both RA and RE warrant officers would have had an Austrian knot on a 9 button tunic, one wearing blue the other scarlet and I don't think thay wore pouch belts. It is too far away to see if there is a spike or ball top to the helmet.

If this is of any use,the official amalgamation of the three towns took place in November 1914.

That could be a likely event, but in the November I imagine that only rear party details would have been available for any parade of that magnitude.

[FROGSMILE]

Unless we can narrow the dates the list of potential battalions will grow (see below). The only other clues might be in the architecture. The police station to the immediate left is not on all the photos of the Guidlhall on the web. Similarly the ornate lamp-posts are not on every photo. There is a remote possibility that identifying when these features were added or taken away we might tighten the dates. A long shot.

With reagrds to the potential candidates for the battalions - if the photo date could be as early as 1902-03 this opens the possibility of three battalions per barracks as candidates. Two barracks in Devonport makes six potential battalions. If we consider Plymouth as suggested by TEW, that would add anothe six potential candidates over that time. The VB or TF adds another possibility making 13. Some can be eliminated on uniform or detail (see below) but the list remains long. Unless we can pin-point the date or at least narrow the date (assuming the red-coat is a scarlet herring, I suspect we will not get much closer.

1. Devonport - South Raglan Barracks

a. A battalion (as yet unidentified) that preceded the 1st Bn Northamptonshire Regt

b. 1st Bn Northamptonshire Regt............from ??? 19?? to Nov 1913

c. 2nd Bn Royal Irish Regt......................from Nov 1913 to Aug 1914

2. Devonport - North Raglan Barracks

d. 2nd Bn R Warwickshire Regt..............from ??? ???? to Sep 1904

e. 1st Bn Leinster Regt...........................from Oct 1904 to Sep 1911

f. 4th Bn Middlesex Regt........................from Sep 1911 to Aug 1914

3. Devonport:

g. 2nd VB Devonshire Regt..............from 1881 to Mar 1908

h. 5th Bn Devonshire Regt (TF).............from Apr 1908 to Aug 1914....can be eliminated on shoulder title (no T or 5 for 5th BnTF)

4. Plymouth Crown Hill Barracks (two battalions)

i. A battalion that preceded the 2nd Bn Sherwood Forseters - as yet unidentified.

j. 2nd Bn Sherwood Forsesters ...........from ??? 19?? to Sep 1913....can be eliminated on shoulder title?

k. 1st Bn Gordon Highlanders ..............from Oct 1913 to Aug 1914......can be eliminated due to highland uniform

l. A battalion or battalions that preceded the 2nd Bn Royal Scots - as yet unidentified.

m. 2nd Bn Royal Scots ..........................from ??? 19?? to Aug 1914.....only possible if taken before 1904 as RS no longer wore the BCH after that date. Unlikely that RS was in station for 10 years.

If it is 1914 and the merger of the three borough towns then I still think that the 2nd Royal Irish are the most likely unit on parade, perhaps furnished by rear party details, as it seems a relatively small guard formed up on parade.

[TEW]

Snippets from Exeter & Plymouth Gazette and Western Times (index only). Had hoped for access to full paper but no such luck.

Not claiming these are contenders but just to add to the list, apologies for any duplicates to Martin G's list.

27/11/1908 - Two deserters from the East Surrey Regiment, at Devonport, have been arrested here.

6/3/1903 - Torquay United suffered defeat from the North Lancashire Regiment. (Devonport) by three goals nil.

9/10/1908 - The garrison at Devonport commenced with the departure the Rifle Brigade for Bordon, their quarters being taken South Raglan Barracks by the Staffordshire Regiment (sic)

13/10/1902 - ....was charged with being a deserter from the 41st Welsh Regiment, now stationed at Raglan Barracks, Devonport.

7/2/1903 - A painful sensation was created at Raglan Barracks yesterday morning becoming known tbat Acting-Far Thomas Sykes, of the 1st North Regiment, stationed at South Barracks......

23/2/1904 - The 1st Loyal North Lancashire Regt., which has occuoied the Raglan Barracks, Devonport, for 18 months, will leave for Kinsale on the 4th of April.

22/10/1907 - Thomas Woodcock, and Archibald Hunter, privates the 3rd Battalion Rifle Brigade, stationed at Raglan Barracks, Devonport, were charged the Exeter Police-court.

21/3/1904 - The 2nd Battalion D.C.L.I. move from j, r " Vll bili into South Raglan Barracks, Devonport.

27/1/1910 - Suspicion Falls on Two Soldiers at Devonport The safe of the 1st Leinster Regiment, quartered at the Raglan Barracks, at Devonport.

26/5/1910 - Private H. Baxxer, 1st South Staffordshire Regiment, shot himself the presence of one of his comrades at the Raglan Barracks, Devonport,

8/11/1912 - .........privates of the 1st Battalion Northampton Regt., from the Raglan Barracks, Devonport, were charged with being absent without leave.

26/11/1914 - George Thomas and Harry JAoksori, privates 3rd Battalion North Staffordshire Regiment, stationed North Raglan Barracks, Plymouth.

14/11/1914 - Ashburton Police Court Friday, charged with being deserter from the Notts and Derby Regiment, stationed at Crownhill, which admitted...

4/12/1914 - ......private in Kitchener's Army, belonging to the regiment of the Argyle and Sutherland Highlanders, now stationed at Crownhill, Plymouth.

TEW

[Guest]

Snippets from Exeter & Plymouth Gazette and Western Times (index only). Had hoped for access to full paper but no such luck.

Not claiming these are contenders but just to add to the list, apologies for any duplicates to Martin G's list.

27/11/1908 - Two deserters from the East Surrey Regiment, at Devonport, have been arrested here.

6/3/1903 - Torquay United suffered defeat from the North Lancashire Regiment. (Devonport) by three goals nil.

9/10/1908 - The garrison at Devonport commenced with the departure the Rifle Brigade for Bordon, their quarters being taken South Raglan Barracks by the Staffordshire Regiment (sic)

13/10/1902 - ....was charged with being a deserter from the 41st Welsh Regiment, now stationed at Raglan Barracks, Devonport.

7/2/1903 - A painful sensation was created at Raglan Barracks yesterday morning becoming known tbat Acting-Far Thomas Sykes, of the 1st North Regiment, stationed at South Barracks......

23/2/1904 - The 1st Loyal North Lancashire Regt., which has occuoied the Raglan Barracks, Devonport, for 18 months, will leave for Kinsale on the 4th of April.

22/10/1907 - Thomas Woodcock, and Archibald Hunter, privates the 3rd Battalion Rifle Brigade, stationed at Raglan Barracks, Devonport, were charged the Exeter Police-court.

21/3/1904 - The 2nd Battalion D.C.L.I. move from j, r " Vll bili into South Raglan Barracks, Devonport.

27/1/1910 - Suspicion Falls on Two Soldiers at Devonport The safe of the 1st Leinster Regiment, quartered at the Raglan Barracks, at Devonport.

26/5/1910 - Private H. Baxxer, 1st South Staffordshire Regiment, shot himself the presence of one of his comrades at the Raglan Barracks, Devonport,

8/11/1912 - .........privates of the 1st Battalion Northampton Regt., from the Raglan Barracks, Devonport, were charged with being absent without leave.

26/11/1914 - George Thomas and Harry JAoksori, privates 3rd Battalion North Staffordshire Regiment, stationed North Raglan Barracks, Plymouth.

14/11/1914 - Ashburton Police Court Friday, charged with being deserter from the Notts and Derby Regiment, stationed at Crownhill, which admitted...

4/12/1914 - ......private in Kitchener's Army, belonging to the regiment of the Argyle and Sutherland Highlanders, now stationed at Crownhill, Plymouth.

TEW

Very useful. Thanks for posting.

[Guest]

If it is 1914 and the merger of the three borough towns then I still think that the 2nd Royal Irish are the most likely unit on parade, perhaps furnished by rear party details, as it seems a relatively small guard formed up on parade.

If it was Aug 1914, probably... but this is winter ......and if it was Nov 1914 (merger of the three boroughs) by this date all the remaining RIR who had not departed with the 2nd Bn for France would have been sent to the 3rd (Reserve) Battalion RIR which had gone to its War Station in Dublin from Clonmel in Sep 1914. Its barracks would have been taken over by another 3rd or 4th Reserve Battalion whose War Station was in Devonport. All the Reserve and Extra Reserve Battalions had War Stations at key points - typically strategic defences such as ports etc. Some had to move the length of the country in Aug 1914 such as the 3rd Bn KOSB based in Dumfries had their War Station in Portland and Weymouth.

Plymouth/Devonport was rather crowded in late Aug 1914 with 10 Reserve Battalions in station at one stage.

4th (Extra Reserve) Bn Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders went to Devonport in Aug 1914 and then to Sunderland in Nov 1914

3rd (Reserve) Bn Somerset Light Infantry went to Devonport on 8th Aug until Nov 1917.

3rd (Reserve) Bn Devonshire Regt went to Plymouth on 28th Aug having been based in Exeter before the outbreak of War.

5th (Reserve) Bn and 6th (Reserve) Bn Worcestershire Regt went to Plymouth in Aug 1914

3rd (Reserve) Bn East Lancashire Regt went to Plymouth on 8th Aug 1914 until 1st Jun 1917

3rd (Reserve) Bn Sherwood Foresters went to Plymouth in Aug 1914

3rd (Reserve) Bn North Staffordshire Regt went to Plymouth in Aug 1914

4th (Extra Reserve) Bn Highland Light Infantry went to Plymouth in Aug 1914

3rd (Reserve) Bn South Staffordshire Regt went to Plymouth in Aug 1914

MG

[FROGSMILE]

If it was Aug 1914, probably... but this is winter ......and if it was Nov 1914 (merger of the three boroughs) by this date all the remaining RIR who had not departed with the 2nd Bn for France would have been sent to the 3rd (Reserve) Battalion RIR which had gone to its War Station in Dublin from Clonmel in Sep 1914. Its barracks would have been taken over by another 3rd or 4th Reserve Battalion whose War Station was in Devonport. All the Reserve and Extra Reserve Battalions had War Stations at key points - typically strategic defences such as ports etc. Some had to move the length of the country in Aug 1914 such as the 3rd Bn KOSB based in Dumfries had their War Station in Portland and Weymouth.

Plymouth/Devonport was rather crowded in late Aug 1914 with 10 Reserve Battalions in station at one stage.

4th (Extra Reserve) Bn Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders went to Devonport in Aug 1914 and then to Sunderland in Nov 1914

3rd (Reserve) Bn Somerset Light Infantry went to Devonport on 8th Aug until Nov 1917.

3rd (Reserve) Bn Devonshire Regt went to Plymouth on 28th Aug having been based in Exeter before the outbreak of War.

5th (Reserve) Bn and 6th (Reserve) Bn Worcestershire Regt went to Plymouth in Aug 1914

3rd (Reserve) Bn East Lancashire Regt went to Plymouth on 8th Aug 1914 until 1st Jun 1917

3rd (Reserve) Bn Sherwood Foresters went to Plymouth in Aug 1914

3rd (Reserve) Bn North Staffordshire Regt went to Plymouth in Aug 1914

4th (Extra Reserve) Bn Highland Light Infantry went to Plymouth in Aug 1914

3rd (Reserve) Bn South Staffordshire Regt went to Plymouth in Aug 1914

MG

Without a definitive date and occasion I do not see how this can be developed further. Too many variables.

[TEW]

At some point in the future I'll hunt through papers at The Devon Heritage Centre. Hopefully, I may find a copy of this photo in the paper! I'll have to restrict the search to the merger of the 3 boroughs and King Geo V's Birthday, although it hardly seems like a June day.

TEW

[Uncle George]

Thanks. I'm on holiday from Saturday morning for a week, so if I don't reply, it's not because I'm being rude!

I've returned from holiday to find these marvellous posts. Many, many thanks to everyone. It will take me a while to digest this mass of amazing information, and respond in due course.

Thanks again

UG

[Uncle George]

Uncle George - are we certain this was taken in 1914?

Not certain, no. I understand from 'Plymouth - A New History' by Crispin Gill (revised edition, 1993) that the amalgamation of the "Three Towns" was finalised in October 1914. But GRUMPY tells us in post 2 that by then the men would be in SD. The inquiry into amalgamation opened, says Gill, on 27 January 1914. ("The German threat had been clear for years", says Gill.) But this inquiry was "opened in Plymouth Guildhall".

Many thanks again to everyone. Yet again the helpfulness and depth of knowledge shown by Forum members has been amazing.

[Uncle George]

I received a book for Christmas - 'Plymouth's Great War - The Three Towns United in Conflict' (2014) by Chris Robinson. On page 18 is a cropped part of the photograph I posted at the head of this thread. It is a close-up of the figure on the steps of the Guildhall; because it doesn't include the Guildhall pillars or the lines of soldiers and policemen, it isn't obviously the same photograph. But the same photo it certainly is.

My assumption that the photo is connected to the 1914 amalgamation of the Three Towns is now shown to be false. The book tells us that it is a photograph of the "Proclamation of King George V ... by Alderman Littleton, Mayor of Devonport ... 9 May 1910".

My thanks again to all who contributed.

[Muerrisch]

Great. So now all we need is a list of regiments in residence at that date.

All.

[Guest]

It certainly eliminates the 2nd Bn Royal Irish Regt.

I don't have the exact arrival dates, but long range contenders remains

1st Bn Northamptonshire Regt,

1st Bn Leinster Regt

2nd Bn Sherwood Foresters - not sure if the Sherwood Foresters had the double scroll with Notts & Derby at the time.

the battalion that preceded the 2nd Bn Royal Scots

Regimental journals would almost certainly have recorded this event. MG

Who What Where and When from an earlier post show again:

1.. Devonport - South Raglan Barracks

a. A battalion (as yet unidentified) that preceded the 1st Bn Northamptonshire Regt

b. 1st Bn Northamptonshire Regt............from ??? 19?? to Nov 1913

c. 2nd Bn Royal Irish Regt......................from Nov 1913 to Aug 1914

2. Devonport - North Raglan Barracks

d. 2nd Bn R Warwickshire Regt..............from ??? ???? to Sep 1904

e. 1st Bn Leinster Regt...........................from Oct 1904 to Sep 1911

f. 4th Bn Middlesex Regt........................from Sep 1911 to Aug 1914

3. Devonport:

g. 2nd VB Devonshire Regt..............from 1881 to Mar 1908

h. 5th Bn Devonshire Regt (TF).............from Apr 1908 to Aug 1914....can be eliminated on shoulder title (no T or 5 for 5th BnTF)

4. Plymouth Crown Hill Barracks (two battalions)

i. A battalion that preceded the 2nd Bn Sherwood Foresters - as yet unidentified.

j. 2nd Bn Sherwood Foresters ...........from ??? 19?? to Sep 1913....can be eliminated on shoulder title?

k. 1st Bn Gordon Highlanders ..............from Oct 1913 to Aug 1914......can be eliminated due to highland uniform

l. A battalion or battalions that preceded the 2nd Bn Royal Scots - as yet unidentified.

m. 2nd Bn Royal Scots ..........................from ??? 19?? to Aug 1914.....only possible if taken before 1904 as RS no longer wore the BCH after that date. Unlikely that RS was in station for 10 years.

[Guest]

Greatcoats in May?