Devonport, 1914

[Uncle George]

The year 1914 was Devonport's last as an independent town. Until that year the neighbouring towns of Devonport, Stonehouse and Plymouth had led fiercely independent lives: but with the coming of the War the Admiralty and the Army had felt the need of only one civic authority with which to deal. So in 1914 the "Three Towns" were amalgamated into 'Plymouth'.

 

Here we are outside Devonport Guildhall. (The Guildhall by a miracle survived the Blitz, and still stands.) The men formed up to our right are Devonport's Finest: the Devonport Borough Police. (My great-grandfather, David Moore, was a sergeant in the Devonport Borough Police.)

 

And the young men formed up to our left. Shortly, surely, part of the BEF. Look how smart they are. One thinks of Robert Service's 'Tipperary Days':

 

"Oh, weren't they the fine boys! You never saw the beat of them,

Singing altogether with their throats bronze-bare;

Fighting-fit and mirth-mad, music in the feet of them,

Swinging on to glory and the wrath out there.

...

"The gallant old 'Contemptibles'! There isn't much remains of them,

So full of fun and fitness, and a-singing in their pride..."

 

Is there any way we can tell, from their uniform, to what regiment these men belonged? Any help would be much appreciated.

 

Edited 3 April , 2017 by Uncle George
Tidying post-reboot

[Muerrisch]

The men are in greatcoat order so it is winter half of whichever year it is.

Not 1914 surely, or they would be in SD.

The Home Service blue cloth helmet says "not fusiliers"

Beyond that .......

[Uncle George]

The men are in greatcoat order so it is winter half of whichever year it is. Not 1914 surely, or they would be in SD. The Home Service blue cloth helmet says "not fusiliers" Beyond that .......

Thanks. Not much to go on I know. There's a chap facing us on the steps of the Guildhall not in a greatcoat, but again there's not much to work with.

[TEW]

I googled up an image of a "Devonshire Regiment" Home Service Blue and seems to fit the bill. Perhaps the event is covered in the 'Bloody Eleventh'? Or local Papers

TEW

[Guest]

The only clue I can see is the curved shoulder title which does not have the T for the TF so I think we can eliminate the TF. The only Militia or Reserve Bn (post 1908) contender would be the 3rd (Special Reserve) Bn Devonshire Regt which was in Exter, so unlikely. I think it is a Regular battalion from the shoulder-title....If it is 1914, it would be one of the two regular battalions based at Devonport in Aug 1914;

2nd Bn Royal Irish Regt

4th Bn Middlesex Regt

Unfortunately both had curved shoulder titles.

MG

[Uncle George]

I googled up an image of a "Devonshire Regiment" Home Service Blue and seems to fit the bill. Perhaps the event is covered in the 'Bloody Eleventh'? Or local Papers

TEW

The only clue I can see is the curved shoulder title which does not have the T for the TF so I think we can eliminate the TF. The only Militia or Reserve Bn (post 1908) contender would be the 3rd (Special Reserve) Bn Devonshire Regt which was in Exter, so unlikely. I think it is a Regular battalion from the shoulder-title....If it is 1914, it would be one of the two regular battalions based at Devonport in Aug 1914;

2nd Bn Royal Irish Regt

4th Bn Middlesex Regt

Unfortunately both had curved shoulder titles.

MG

Thank you both very much. Martin, I would love to be able to identify what battalions were based in Devonport, and when. I'd be very grateful for any guidance.

Thanks again.

[Guest]

Thank you both very much. Martin, I would love to be able to identify what battalions were based in Devonport, and when. I'd be very grateful for any guidance.

Thanks again.

I will revert. Senior management (mother-in-law) has just arrived so I am under a restraining order with regards to the GWF. I can put the list together and show when these two battalions were in Devonport. Give me a day or two. MG

[FROGSMILE]

Given that the officer on the steps has dark facings and assuming that he is from the same regiment as the men in greatcoats (which seems likely) then the unit is most likely the 2nd Battalion the Royal Irish Regiment, who had dark blue facings. The Middlesex Regiment had white facings that would have been very apparent on the officer shown had he been from that unit.

The enclosed colour image shows the other ranks pre 1902 uniform, but the cuff embellishment of the officer gives a good comparison for those in your photo.

1881.07.01 2nd Battalion, The Royal Irish Regiment

1902 Ireland: Fermoy

1906 Buttevant

1910 Channel Islands: Guernsey

1913 England: Devonport 8 Bde

1914.08 France and Flanders 3 Div

1915.03 France and Flanders 4 Div

1916.05 France and Flanders 7 Div

1916.10 France and Flanders 16 Div

1918.04 France and Flanders 63 Div

1919 India: Chakratta 1920? Delhi

1922 Dehra Dun

1922.07.31 disbanded

[FROGSMILE]

Pre 1903 full dress.

[Uncle George]

I will revert. Senior management (mother-in-law) has just arrived so I am under a restraining order with regards to the GWF. I can put the list together and show when these two battalions were in Devonport. Give me a day or two. MG

Thanks. I'm on holiday from Saturday morning for a week, so if I don't reply, it's not because I'm being rude!

[Uncle George]

Given that the officer on the steps has dark facings and assuming that he is from the same regiment as the men in greatcoats (which seems likely) then the unit is most likely the 2nd Battalion the Royal Irish Regiment, who had dark blue facings. The Middlesex Regiment had white facings that would have been very apparent on the officer shown had he been from that unit.

The enclosed colour image shows the other ranks pre 1902 uniform, but the cuff embellishment of the officer gives a good comparison for those in your photo.

1881.07.01 2nd Battalion, The Royal Irish Regiment

1902 Ireland: Fermoy

1906 Buttevant

1910 Channel Islands: Guernsey

1913 England: Devonport 8 Bde

1914.08 France and Flanders 3 Div

1915.03 France and Flanders 4 Div

1916.05 France and Flanders 7 Div

1916.10 France and Flanders 16 Div

1918.04 France and Flanders 63 Div

1919 India: Chakratta 1920? Delhi

1922 Dehra Dun

1922.07.31 disbanded

Thanks very much indeed. Much appreciated.

[Scalyback]

It is a bit of a mix. Could I ask why infront of the police ranks is a chap bent over in flat cap? Also would the tops of the army helmets be a clue? Ball type etc.

[Graham Stewart]

The year 1914 was Devonport's last as an independent town. Until that year the neighbouring towns of Devonport, Stonehouse and Plymouth had led fiercely independent lives: but with the coming of the War the Admiralty and the Army had felt the need of only one civic authority with which to deal. So in 1914 the "Three Towns" were amalgamated into 'Plymouth'.

Here we are outside Devonport Guildhall. (The Guildhall by a miracle survived the Blitz, and still stands.) The men formed up to our right are Devonport's Finest: the Devonport Borough Police. (My great-grandfather, David Moore, was a sergeant in the Devonport Borough Police.)

And the young men formed up to our left. Shortly, surely, part of the BEF. Look how smart they are. One thinks of Robert Service's 'Tipperary Days':

"Oh, weren't they the fine boys! You never saw the beat of them,

Singing altogether with their throats bronze-bare;

Fighting-fit and mirth-mad, music in the feet of them,

Swinging on to glory and the wrath out there.

...

"The gallant old 'Contemptibles'! There isn't much remains of them,

So full of fun and fitness, and a-singing in their pride..."

Is there any way we can tell, from their uniform, to what regiment these men belonged? Any help would be much appreciated.

image.jpg

Such events are well covered in local newspapers - that's where I'd be going.

[TEW]

A very poor copy of this image is shown HERE. Overall the website is full of nasty popup things and the page took a while to load. The image is within a slideshow of images at the top of the page. It is captioned:

Police on Parade outside Devonport Guildhall when it was used as a court.

So whoever captioned it didn't look very closely.

Image also HERE possibly the same or slightly better quality as OP. Captioned allo, allo, allo, Devonport Police at Devonport Guildhall and Police Station.

TEW

Edited 15:23

Could it be this?
The Times May 10th 1910 10d. King's Birthday
The weather at Plymouth was so inclement that the ceremony was transferred to the inside of the Guildhall, the proclamation being afterwards read outside.[....snipped...]. The Mayor of Devonport read the proclamaion in front of the Guildhall, the 1st Staffordshire Regiment providing a guard of honour with trumpeters.

Not that I can see a trumpet in sight but could they be Staffs??

TEW

[FROGSMILE]

A very poor copy of this image is shown HERE. Overall the website is full of nasty popup things and the page took a while to load. The image is within a slideshow of images at the top of the page. It is captioned:

Police on Parade outside Devonport Guildhall when it was used as a court.

So whoever captioned it didn't look very closely.

Image also HERE possibly the same or slightly better quality as OP. Captioned allo, allo, allo, Devonport Police at Devonport Guildhall and Police Station.

TEW

Edited 15:23

Could it be this?

The Times May 10th 1910 10d. King's Birthday

The weather at Plymouth was so inclement that the ceremony was transferred to the inside of the Guildhall, the proclamation being afterwards read outside.[....snipped...]. The Mayor of Devonport read the proclamaion in front of the Guildhall, the 1st Staffordshire Regiment providing a guard of honour with trumpeters.

Not that I can see a trumpet in sight but could they be Staffs??

TEW

Both the North and South Staffordshire Regiments had white facings in 1910 so we are in the same quandary as with the Middlesex Regt suggestion in that, assuming the officer on the steps is from the same regiment, then a Staffs connection seems unlikely. That said, it is possible that he is from a different regiment and that the mens' white facings are obscured by their greatcoats.

The helmets all appear to be spiked, which rules out a non-infantry unit.

[Guest]

In Jan 1913 the Northamptonshire Regt was based in Devonport. In 1913 facings were white which would eliminate them I guess. Curved shoulder titles though.

MG

[FROGSMILE]

In Jan 1913 the Northamptonshire Regt was based in Devonport. In 1913 facings were white which would eliminate them I guess. Curved shoulder titles though.

MG

The majority of County regiments had curved titles Martin, as well as the Royal Irish Regt. It is dark facings together with curved titles that would seem to give the best likelihood.

[Guest]

The majority of County regiments had curved titles Martin, as well as the Royal Irish Regt. It is dark facings together with curved titles that would seem to give the best likelihood.

Yes I understand that. With your expertise in uniforms can you set parameters of the earliest date this photo could have been taken?

To my mind the only real contenders are regular battalions and we know that there were two based in Devonport. If we are able to set date parameters and can trace which Regiments were in Devonport between these dates we should be able to get a short-list of contenders and by further eliminating Regiments such as the Middlesex and Northamtonshires on facing colours and others on shoulder-title shapes we might even be able to get a short list of one i.e. the Royal Irish Regt.

The OP suggests it was taken in 1914. Are we sure of this? If so it would limit the possibilities even further. I suspect that given the likely date range and the length of typical home station postings for battalions, there will only be a small number of possibilities. So far I have the 2nd Bn Royal Irish Regt in Guernsey up to Oct 1913 and in Devonport from Nov 1913. The monthly returns indicate that The Royal Irish Regt took over from the Northamtonshire Regt. We now have to establish when the 4th Bn Middlesex Regt first arrived in Devonport and which Regiment they replaced.

MG

Edit: I have 1st Bn Leinster Regt in Devonport in March 1911 and leaving for India in Sep 1911. Blue facings, curved shoulder titles. I am pretty sure that the 4th Bn Middlesex took over from the 1st Bn Lenister

On this basis, given Home based battalions were in station on average for 5-6 years (Please correct me if I am wrong on this), I suspect the only contenders are these four Regiments, of which we can eliminate two on the basis of their facing colours.

If it is the Royal Irish Regt it has to be after Oct 1913

If it is the Leinster Regt it has to be before Sep 1911

If we are confident the picture was taken in 1914 (presumably Winter of 1913-14), then to my mind it is most likely to be the 2nd Bn Royal Irish Regt. Happy to be shot down.

[Guest]

The year 1914 was Devonport's last as an independent town. Until that year the neighbouring towns of Devonport, Stonehouse and Plymouth had led fiercely independent lives: but with the coming of the War the Admiralty and the Army had felt the need of only one civic authority with which to deal. So in 1914 the "Three Towns" were amalgamated into 'Plymouth'.

Here we are outside Devonport Guildhall. (The Guildhall by a miracle survived the Blitz, and still stands.) The men formed up to our right are Devonport's Finest: the Devonport Borough Police. (My great-grandfather, David Moore, was a sergeant in the Devonport Borough Police.)

Uncle George - are we certain this was taken in 1914?

[FROGSMILE]

Yes I understand that. With your expertise in uniforms can you set parameters of the earliest date this photo could have been taken?

To my mind the only real contenders are regular battalions and we know that there were two based in Devonport. If we are able to set date parameters and can trace which Regiments were in Devonport between these dates we should be able to get a short-list of contenders and by further eliminating Regiments such as the Middlesex and Northamtonshires on facing colours and others on shoulder-title shapes we might even be able to get a short list of one i.e. the Royal Irish Regt.

The OP suggests it was taken in 1914. Are we sure of this? If so it would limit the possibilities even further. I suspect that given the likely date range and the length of typical home station postings for battalions, there will only be a small number of possibilities. So far I have the 2nd Bn Royal Irish Regt in Guernsey up to Oct 1913 and in Devonport from Nov 1913. The monthly returns indicate that The Royal Irish Regt took over from the Northamtonshire Regt. We now have to establish when the 4th Bn Middlesex Regt first arrived in Devonport and which Regiment they replaced.

MG

Edit: I have 1st Bn Leinster Regt in Devonport in March 1911 and leaving for India in Sep 1911. Blue facings, curved shoulder titles. I am pretty sure that the 4th Bn Middlesex took over from the 1st Bn Lenister

On this basis, given Home based battalions were in station on average for 5-6 years (Please correct me if I am wrong on this), I suspect the only contenders are these four Regiments, of which we can eliminate two on the basis of their facing colours.

If it is the Royal Irish Regt it has to be after Oct 1913

If it is the Leinster Regt it has to be before Sep 1911

If we are confident the picture was taken in 1914 (presumably Winter of 1913-14), then to my mind it is most likely to be the 2nd Bn Royal Irish Regt. Happy to be shot down.

Your narrowing down seems fine to me and the Royal Irish seem the strongest contenders so far Martin. The Leinsters were also a Royal regiment with dark facings and curved titles so depending on date it could be them also.

[Guest]

Your narrowing down seems fine to me and the Royal Irish seem the strongest contenders so far Martin. The Leinsters were also a Royal regiment with dark facings and curved titles so depending on date it could be them also.

Gald to see we are on the same page.

Incidentally I discovered not all regiments with 'Royal' in their title had blue facings. According to the May 1915 Army List the Royal Irish Rifles had dark green facings. Also I discovered the Middlesex facings were Lemon Yellow, not white.(same source). There was such an uproar from regiments on the changes in facing colour that a number reverted to their original colours.

List below based on 1915 Army List

Regiment .........................................Facing Colour

Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders ......Yellow

Bedfordshire Regt ............................White

Black Watch .....................................Blue

Border Regt .....................................Yellow

Cameron Highlanders ......................Blue

Cameronians................................... Dark Green

Cheshire Regt .................................Buff

Connaught Rangers ........................Green

DCLI................................................ White

Devonshire Regt ..............................Lincoln Green

Dorsetshire Regt ..............................Grass Green

DOWR .............................................Scarlet

Durham Light Infantry ......................Dark Green

East Lancs Regt ..............................White

East Surrey Regt .............................White

East Yorkshire Regt ........................White

Essex Regt ......................................White

Gloucestershire Regt ......................White

Gordon Highlanders ........................Yellow

Hampshire Regt ..............................Yellow

Highland Light Infantry .....................Buff

King's Liverpool Regt .......................Blue

King's Own (R Lancaster Regt).........Blue

King's Own Scottish Borderers .........Blue

KOYLI.............................................. Blue

KRRC ..............................................Scarlet

KSLI .................................................Blue

Lancashire Fusiliers .........................White

Leicestershire Regt ..........................White

Leinster Regiment ............................Blue

Lincolnshire Regt .............................White

Loyal North Lancs ............................White

Manchester Regt ..............................White

Middlesex Regt .................................Lemon Yellow

Norfolk Regt .....................................Yellow

North Staffordshire ...........................White

Northamptonshire Regt ....................White

Northumberland Fus ........................Gosling Green

Ox & Bucks LI ...................................White

Queens (R West Surrey) .................Blue

Queen's Own (RWKR) .....................Blue

Rifle Bde ..........................................Black

Royal Berkshire Regt ......................Blue

Royal Dublin Fus .............................Blue

Royal Fus (City of London Regt)..... Blue

Royal Inniskilling Fus .......................Blue

Royal Irish Fus ................................Blue

Royal Irish Regt ...............................Blue

Royal Irish Rifles ..............................Dark Green

Royal Munster Fus ..........................Blue

Royal Scots .....................................Blue

Royal Scots Fusiliers .......................Blue

Royal Sussex Regt.......................... Blue

Royal Warwickshire Regt................ Blue

Royal Welsh Fus ............................Blue

Seaforth Hldrs ................................Buff

Sherwood Foresters....................... Lincoln Green

Somerset LI .....................................Blue

South Lancashire Regt................... White

South Staffs ....................................White

South Wales Borderers.................. Grass Green

Suffolk Regt ...................................Yellow

The Buffs (East Kent) Regt ............Buff

Welsh Regt ....................................White

West Yorkshire Regt ......................Buff

Wiltshire Regt ................................Buff

Worcestershire Regt ......................White

York & Lancaster ...........................White

Yorkshire Regt ...............................Grass Green

[Muerrisch]

The officer in tunic may be a scarlet herring of course, in that the very basic rule was that officers dressed in the same order of dress as the men. This is laid down here there and everywhere. Therefore he may be an officer from another unit who did not get the text.

By the way, it is very likely that those in greatcoat have little more than a greyback shirt beneath it. This is certainly the case for modern soldiery on ceremonial duty ........ almost anything goes. There are numerous anecdotes about guardsmen wearing outrageous T shirts for example.

Another "by the way".

Fixed bayonets often imply Freedom of the City/ Borough. Would this narrow the field?

[JOHN BALL]

Anyone else noticed the young ladies wearing what appears to be white blouses,together with straw boaters. In Wintertime.?

[Muerrisch]

For Remembrance Day parades, my Scouts and my wife's Guides always paraded looking like high summer, but closer inspection revealed we all looked unusually tubby, with layer on layer underneath.Winter draws on, so to speak.

I note one soldier flanking the bigknobs is a drummer, complete with bugle.

[FROGSMILE]

Gald to see we are on the same page.

Incidentally I discovered not all regiments with 'Royal' in their title had blue facings. According to the May 1915 Army List the Royal Irish Rifles had dark green facings. Also I discovered the Middlesex facings were Lemon Yellow, not white.(same source). There was such an uproar from regiments on the changes in facing colour that a number reverted to their original colours.

List below based on 1915 Army List

Regiment .........................................Facing Colour

Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders ......Yellow

Bedfordshire Regt ............................White

Black Watch .....................................Blue

Border Regt .....................................Yellow

Cameron Highlanders ......................Blue

Cameronians................................... Dark Green

Cheshire Regt .................................Buff

Connaught Rangers ........................Green

DCLI................................................ White

Devonshire Regt ..............................Lincoln Green

Dorsetshire Regt ..............................Grass Green

DOWR .............................................Scarlet

Durham Light Infantry ......................Dark Green

East Lancs Regt ..............................White

East Surrey Regt .............................White

East Yorkshire Regt ........................White

Essex Regt ......................................White

Gloucestershire Regt ......................White

Gordon Highlanders ........................Yellow

Hampshire Regt ..............................Yellow

Highland Light Infantry .....................Buff

King's Liverpool Regt .......................Blue

King's Own (R Lancaster Regt).........Blue

King's Own Scottish Borderers .........Blue

KOYLI.............................................. Blue

KRRC ..............................................Scarlet

KSLI .................................................Blue

Lancashire Fusiliers .........................White

Leicestershire Regt ..........................White

Leinster Regiment ............................Blue

Lincolnshire Regt .............................White

Loyal North Lancs ............................White

Manchester Regt ..............................White

Middlesex Regt .................................Lemon Yellow

Norfolk Regt .....................................Yellow

North Staffordshire ...........................White

Northamptonshire Regt ....................White

Northumberland Fus ........................Gosling Green

Ox & Bucks LI ...................................White

Queens (R West Surrey) .................Blue

Queen's Own (RWKR) .....................Blue

Rifle Bde ..........................................Black

Royal Berkshire Regt ......................Blue

Royal Dublin Fus .............................Blue

Royal Fus (City of London Regt)..... Blue

Royal Inniskilling Fus .......................Blue

Royal Irish Fus ................................Blue

Royal Irish Regt ...............................Blue

Royal Irish Rifles ..............................Dark Green

Royal Munster Fus ..........................Blue

Royal Scots .....................................Blue

Royal Scots Fusiliers .......................Blue

Royal Sussex Regt.......................... Blue

Royal Warwickshire Regt................ Blue

Royal Welsh Fus ............................Blue

Seaforth Hldrs ................................Buff

Sherwood Foresters....................... Lincoln Green

Somerset LI .....................................Blue

South Lancashire Regt................... White

South Staffs ....................................White

South Wales Borderers.................. Grass Green

Suffolk Regt ...................................Yellow

The Buffs (East Kent) Regt ............Buff

Welsh Regt ....................................White

West Yorkshire Regt ......................Buff

Wiltshire Regt ................................Buff

Worcestershire Regt ......................White

York & Lancaster ...........................White

Yorkshire Regt ...............................Grass Green

Yes I have that list too Martin.