Battlefield Tourism as a day out?

[dycer]

I fully agree with the sentiments expressed here as regards respect.

I would hate to think,though, that any group that visted the Cemetery where my Uncle is buried(unlikely as it is a small one and not as a result of a large Battle) were forced to be quiet, as say visting a Cathedral.

Obviously any visting Group has to take regard of the surroundings e.g. visiting relatives,commemoration services and any outright vandalism should be stamped upon(politically correctly,of course!)

I can't see any great problems with the odd peal of laughter or bit of high jinks though.The permanent residents were boys as well and as we know not all were saints in life.

George

[bkristof]

I always say: prevention is better than cure.

So if you tell children what will follow, they will act to it.

If i should beat the children I teach, well i would be in the hospital the day after, beaten up by the same kids...

We don't need hard dicipline, but structure and clarifiyng.

Structure like: a cemetery is were people are buried, we show respect for the dead, we are quite

A playground is for playing, so try to enjoy yourself.

[John_Hartley]

No wonder so many people are leaving this country to live abroad, me included.

Mark

Can I wish you well in your new country. Where are you emigrating to?

I hope you find the rural bliss that your village obviously once was. It must be a great shock for local people like you to find that things seem to have changed so quickly from when they were young.

I'm fortunate living in the leafy suburbs of Greater Manchester. We don't seem to have as many of these problems.

Sure, there's often groups of kids milling round the local "late shop", but they are not usually much trouble to anyone. At least they are with their mates, rather than spending their time huddled over the computer playing games. Must be even more difficult for kids in an isolated rural community.

But at least you and me live somewhere where there is a local shop and post office. In many of the run-down urban areas near me, the shops have closed and the areas are now like ghost towns. Folk there must have run out of hope ages ago and probably yearn for a new start somewhere.

Good luck with the new life.

John

[dycer]

Kristof,

In the 1920's in Scotland My Grand-Parents took my Mother and Brother and Sisters and Sisters,after Church, for a Sunday walk, often to the local Cemetery(Civilian and Military) so they could see and pay their respects to the recent deceased!

This may sound callous but years ago there was not the same fear of death and chidren were brought up to accept it was a part of everyday life(excuse the pun).

I'm sure my Mother and her Family treated the Cemetery with great respect and possibly the point that has been made earlier, is valid.By the time the Family reached the Cemetery the Children had had their excercise i.e. walking a couple of miles,chasing each other en route,etc. so they were tired and compliant by the time they reached the Cemetery.Stop the coach a couple of miles a way from the Cemetery,let them walk the rest and they'll be quiet by the time you arrive.You might even be lucky and have mislaid the unruly ones in a ditch on the way(only kidding!)

George

[John_Hartley]

Interesting signature, John, especially in the context of a thread condemning young people. He was 22, wasn't he?

Like it.

Gwyn

Yes, he was.

Tom was a student, in Manchester, and was a very courageous young man.

I know Chris Baker doesnt like the website cluttered with links to other sites, but a Google on his name will tell his story. It is, unfortunately, a story of our times.

John

[kevin ley]

I would like to add to the comment that it is not just the kids who spoil the atmosphere of these CWGC cemeteries. A few months ago I went on my first battlefield tour to the Western Front with a company (Bartletts). At one particular cemetery I was greeted by a chap who was writing "murdered" in the cemetery book by the names of 4 SAD cases who happened to be in the cemetery at the time. Before I could even get into the cemetery he preceded to tell me that "Haig was a murderer" and you could feel the anger rising up within him. He started to become belligerent and threatened our tour guide (not a wise thing to do since he was ex-services himself). I might add that he continued to exhibit unprovoked aggressive behaviour toward us - neither I or the guide had said anything other than "that he should not be writing in the book" (our guide told him that).

He then after abusing us verbally sped away with his missus on a moped and we saw him later on in the day at another cemetery where there were apparently some other SAD cases. One can assume he was doing the same thing there.

I don't wish to debate the rights and wrongs of the whole SAD issue - personally I don't feel qualified to second guess actions taken 90 years ago during a terrible war. However, this individuals behaviour completely spoiled the party's experience of these places of great natural beauty and tranquility. All the people in the party had relatives who fought and some who had died over there.

To complete the story our guide reported him to the CWGC - we got his number plate. I don't know what became of this and frankly I don't want to know.

Kevin.

[BatterySergeantMajor]

I think it's just a question of values and manners, the world is changing, and not for the better i think. Lets not be too hasty though, bumped into various school groups in cemeteries on the Western Front and 99.9% of them have shown alot of respect and decorum in these places. The laughter of young children......

Chris.

Well well

the least I can say is that I'm very happy with the fact that a lot of people feel involved with the subject. Although I thought I was quite clear in explaining my point of view, it seems I was not. Let me try to put some things clear.

1)Although 99,9% is certainly a serious exageration, I didn't want to give the impression that most of the groups are misbehaving. Far more than half of the groups have are doing well, taking in account that the times have changed and the youngsters from today are not the same as we were. I can live with that, and even a laugh on a cemetery should be acceptable if it is in the right context. Soldiers in those days were also laughing, even if they were encircled with dead comrades.

2)I am quite upset with reactions who suggest that you should bully or even hit young visitors.The only thing I ask for is that everyone takes his/hers responsability, and do not look at the other side if other people are misbehaving (and not only youngsters). Especially teachers and guides should act if necessary.

3)I want to set my viewpoint clear: if you visit the battlefield, and especially cemeteries, you have no right on any misbehaviour, whether you are 7 or 77 year. Tolerance has it's limits, even towards the young people of these days. If you don't accept that young people come over to learn something, please let them stay at home.I understand that some people think it is hip to pretend they are forever young themselves, but please accept there are some universal values which should stay upright. Respect is a cornerstone of the society we know, and I think we should keep it like that. Those who died far too young should not be misused in discussions which reflect our actual viewpoints (for example the shot-at-dawn discussion).

I am prepared to go to lengths in this discussion, but the cornerstone in my viewpoint is this : it is not me or the people who are visiting the area who are playing the main role in the piece. It are those who are lying in "some corner of a foreign field, which is forever England/Ireland/Scotland/Canada/..." All the rest is of secondary importance.

Erwin

[Dragon]

Many younger people (and some adults) simply don’t have the cultural references to enable them to read places of memorial. Some will never have been inside a church. Some will never have been to a funeral or lost relatives whom they remember or who are buried in a graveyard. I suppose that looking at a cemetery though their eyes gives a view of several hundred upright stones with a bigger one somewhere towards the back, with a symbol on it.

It is, therefore, up to the accompanying adults to ensure that they are aware what these things stand for. Indeed, the adults need to be clear in their own minds what the cemeteries and memorials represent. Statements like ‘respect’ simply won’t do. Respect for what? The dead people (who one may assume do not know whether they’re being respected or not)? Other visitors? The Establishment? Lurking spirits?

It’s in the nature of younger people (and some of us who are older) to challenge the values of the Establishment and, in the context of military cemeteries, we who are more mature need to take care that we’re not telling them to behave reflectively and quietly because they just must, because someone older says so. I’d tell them that even if they don’t like the political messages of military cemeteries and memorials, that they can be quiet while they’re there; and I hope I’d be able to give them proper, robust reasons why it’s appropriate to be quiet and thoughtful, why other people need a quiet atmosphere. I hope I’d be able to satisfy their questions, on the basis that it’s reasonable to question. Younger people won’t pick these things up by accident.

And sometimes, what we're expecting them to take in may just be too overwhelming, just too much.

I’m not a teacher and therefore I’ve never taken groups to battlefields and cemeteries, but my observations tell me that it is possible for visits to be rewarding both for parties and the people who happen to be there while the parties are visiting.

On a slightly different level, I want to say that some people who visit the battlefields in family groups or in organised parties may be unable to behave in way which ideally we would all wish to see. I’m thinking of people with conditions such as autism. Even if they don’t read these places as we do, they may absorb something valuable on their own terms.

Gwyn

[bkristof]

On a slightly different level, I want to say that some people who visit the battlefields in family groups or in organised parties may be unable to behave in way which ideally we would all wish to see. I’m thinking of people with conditions such as autism. Even if they don’t read these places as we do, they may absorb something valuable on their own terms.

I also worked as volunteer for 5 years with disabled people. We did touristic trips to Verdun, Argonne and even the salient. I never had any problems, i didn't really needed to explain it to them. It was the atmosphere of the area itself that explainde itself (i hope this is clear enough). They felt how to behave...

Who is the dumbass? The mental cases??? no way!

[Dragon]

Yes, Kristof, it is clear what you mean about the effect of the atmosphere. I'm glad that has been your experience.

I mentioned autism specifically because I know that some people are highly intolerant of the bizarre or inappropriate behaviours which may characterise that particular condition and the autistic spectrum.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but in the UK we would not use the phrase 'mental cases' to describe people with disabilities. I can understand what your meaning is; it's just that you've used a phrase which in English we would avoid.

I'd like to say that I think that, from your descriptions, your attitudes and experiences with your students have been exactly right!

Gwyn

[chrisharley9]

I fully agree with the sentiments expressed here as regards respect.

I would hate to think,though, that any group that visted the Cemetery where my Uncle is buried(unlikely as it is a small one and not as a result of a large Battle) were forced to be quiet, as say visting a Cathedral.

Obviously any visting Group has to take regard of the surroundings e.g. visiting relatives,commemoration services and any outright vandalism should be stamped upon(politically correctly,of course!)

I can't see any great problems with the odd peal of laughter or bit of high jinks though.The permanent residents were boys as well and as we know not all were saints in life.

George

Despite what I said earlier this I can agree with

All The Best

Chris

[chrisharley9]

On a slightly different level, I want to say that some people who visit the battlefields in family groups or in organised parties may be unable to behave in way which ideally we would all wish to see. I’m thinking of people with conditions such as autism. Even if they don’t read these places as we do, they may absorb something valuable on their own terms.

I also worked as volunteer for 5 years with disabled people. We did touristic trips to Verdun, Argonne and even the salient. I never had any problems, i didn't really needed to explain it to them. It was the atmosphere of the area itself that explainde itself (i hope this is clear enough). They felt how to behave...

Who is the dumbass? The mental cases??? no way!

My son is mentally handicapped, yet I try to to teach him right from wrong. I have taken him to our local war graves plot & the main question he always asks is are these men like you & grandad. He despite his problem understands the loss & hurt that conflict has caused to our family (not just the Great War). My daughter (bless her) wants to come with me the next time I go to Ypres because she now wants to know where our family fought. In reference to previous posts the thing I do like to hear is childrens laughter, but I do teach my own children that respect is due to those men & women of our country (& of course our allies) that have bought these precious freedoms that far too many people tend to take for granted.

[bkristof]

Hi Chris,

it is already very difficult for "normal" children to understand. So don't worry.

But I believe that your son knows and understands that a cemetery isn't a playground.

Sometimes "normal" (i hate to use this word) kids know the porper way to behave but simply don't care. Mentally handicapped kids are not so "fast" to be mean or be indifferent. Their emotions are mostley stronger than others. I know a boy who starts crying on every cemetery, even when he just sees something who looks like a grave. That is also not needed. But his emotions are to strong. Or he is happy or he is sad and he cries.

[Dragon]

I didn't want to deflect the thread or cause controversy.

I've had experience of taking an autistic person to various places and the unpredictable nature of his reactions. I've also had first hand experience of how critical and judgmental outsiders can be when he behaves so bizarrely. Outsiders don't hold back from speaking their minds and making totally unfair, undeserved criticism of his parents / carers or of the person himself.

I simply wanted to raise awareness that in some cases of apparently inappropriate behaviour, everything is not as it appears.

Gwyn

[bkristof]

Gwyn,

don't feel bad. No picking on you... It was just my experience. It was not meant to blame you.

sorry,

kristof

[chrisharley9]

I didn't want to deflect the thread or cause controversy.

I've had experience of taking an autistic person to various places and the unpredictable nature of his reactions. I've also had first hand experience of how critical and judgmental outsiders can be when he behaves so bizarrely. Outsiders don't hold back from speaking their minds and making totally unfair, undeserved criticism of his parents / carers or of the person himself.

I simply wanted to raise awareness that in some cases of apparently inappropriate behaviour, everything is not as it appears.

Gwyn

Gwyn

Helps to share your experiences mate

All The Best

chris

[healdav]

As someone said, there are a lot of people out there who can't spell respect let alone show it. Not so long ago there was baptism at our church where the party arrived with about 50 friends.

The said friends sat at the back of the church, chatting to one another throughout the service in failry loud voices, despite some well aimed glares and comments from the normal congregation (which was quite large), giggling through the baptism and communion and stampeded out at the end to a shout of, 'now for the champagne'. I'm not talking about teenagers here but late 20s and 30s.

On the other hand, a good number of years ago now on Remembrance Day we were standing for the silence and it was about half way through when a boy of nine or ten years old started to scream. He wasn't shouting, but screaming. He was just totally unnerved by the experience. And the Sunday School teachers had explained beforehand what was to happen and why.

It is difficult to get the attention of the young sometimes. I take groups around (normally the French or US cemeteries) and what I have done is to print out the death certificates of soldiers buried there (a couple of dozen) and then split the group into, threes or twos. Give each group a certificate - or two - and poppies and tell them to find the graves and put the poppies on them.

First they have to look up the register - now we know what that is for. Then they have to find the grave. And they know something of the man as they have the death certificate. It isn't unknown for them to stand in wonder as they look to see where he was born and how old he was.

In the US cemetery I have certain graves I take every group to - A Medal of Honor awardee whose citation I have and one of the first soldiers to arrive in France and who died of unknown causes. Then ask them how come there are Jewish unknowns - if they are unknown how do they know they were Jews? - the answers to that question have to be heard to be believed - and they never get the correct answer.

In other words they have something to relate to.

[BatterySergeantMajor]

This is part from the message with which I started the threadRunning through the cemeteries and the graves, crawling on the cross of sacrifice on Tyne Cot, yelling and jumping on the flat grave stones in Langemark: this is just a selection of frequently behaviour .

This is how Gwynn reacted

especially in the context of a thread condemning young people.

Wether my messages were not carefully read, whether someone wants to put them in a wrong context. "Condemning young people" is a very strong expression which doesn't reflect what I wanted to put forward. Bringing in such emotional arguments should inevatibily lead to black/white discussions, bringing us away from the elementary message. I hope this wasn't done deliberately.

I think the examples I gave were clear: it is not about handicapped people or other specific groups where everyone with common sense nows they need a specific approach and much understanding.

To my opinion, battlefield tours have an educational aspect: this doesn't mean it should be boring history lessons. Trying to let visitors (young or old) think, feel, meditate about what happened and how human people behave once the varnish of culture is peeling off is also aspect of education and does an appeal on the individual involvement.

I also do not agree that respect is an abstract idea .To answer the question what respect means to me (strange that this needs explanation): giving the other visitors the possibility to reflect, remember, eventually mourn or just visit the site in an undisturbed way.

It is necessary to think over and over again how we should approach (young) people. But this doesn't mean we should try to be as fashionable as possible , for example trough allowing behaviour which is commonly accepted as not suited.

Learning how a society works is also education!

Erwin

[Chris Noble]

Sorry Guys and Gals, work commitments have kept me off the old P.C. for a couple of days.

Some interesting points have been made on this particular thread.

Erwin. I must have been lucky on visiting the Western Front for the last 15 years or so. I have not come across one party of school children mis-behaving themselves. The only time i have ever walked away from a site, was at La Boiselle, no trouble, just too much noise, and for me, personally, not the ideal situation for quiet reflection. I utterly condone the actions of violence on any particular individual, however old.

The one thing that really, i won't swear, brassed me off. On a visit to Authuille Military Cemetery( in my opinion one of the most beautiful cemeteries on the Somme) to take a photo for another Forum Pal, was, i'm sorry to say, a group of the Western Front Association,(of which i am a member), playing 'The ballad of Willie McBride' full pelt. As you can imagine, i was lost for words, dissapointed. Back to the car, just couldn't believe it. If i could have found the word to express myself, i would have used them. Just walked off, shaking my head.

Not just the young, and to be honest, these people should have known better.

Regards, Chris.

[Dragon]

This is how Gwynn reacted

especially in the context of a thread condemning young people.

Wether my messages were not carefully read, whether someone wants to put them in a wrong context. "Condemning young people" is a very strong expression which doesn't reflect what I wanted to put forward. Bringing in such emotional arguments should inevatibily lead to black/white discussions, bringing us away from the elementary message. I hope this wasn't done deliberately.

Please do not patronise me.

The majority of the comments which followed yours were condemnatory of young people. Thus the tenor of the thread changed. The thread is what I referred to, not your opening remarks.

If you knew anything about me, you would know that I am not the sort of person deliberately to sensationalise an argument , but to consider it analytically. I fail to see how responding with diverging, but related and relevant, ideas is contrary to the spirit of a discussion. If you want people to pursue a theme within a narrow, predefined channel, agreeing with you, you are not in the right Forum. Having an alternative opinion is not a matter of fashion, it is a matter of intellect. I am not deficient in that area.

As extendng the range of opinions within a theme is apparently unwelcome, I withdraw from the debate.

Gwyn

[Dragon]

This is actually how Gwyn reacted:

Young people are perfectly capable of responding to atmosphere, mood, human tragedy and emotional cost if they go to these places properly prepared and accompanied by adults to whom the experience means something and who have thought through why they’re taking the students to share in it.

And I would point out that your initial post contains four paragraphs critical of young people’s behaviour.

Gwyn

[NIGEL]

I have only just come across this thread, and although i dont have any kids, the fact is if they dont know why they are there, and the teaching hasnt been made interesting of why they are there, then the kids arent going to show the slightest interest and will just treat it as a school trip out away from boring lessons--------thats from memory of how my schooling was, and a school trip was just a freebie skive---------all the fault of the teachers really, because the teachers who were good, we all learnt from.

[Guest bonza]

Perhaps the kids are bored 'cause WW1 is just ancient History. Maybe they need the conflict to be modernised. Instead of an Annual Pals Tour, why don't we hire the Colliseum, Webley Stadium, woteva, and sell tickets to the kiddies.

Then we could all congregate in the centre & finish off this debate. There's no need to involve any former enemies, we seem to do pretty well wivoutem.

[NIGEL]

I dont think thats true Pat, i remember the whole of my class being interested in various things a lot older than WW1, partly because when our history teacher wasnt drunk he was one of those people who just managed to get your attention and make the whole thing interesting, unfortunatly for some reason we stopped at WW1.

But also there were teachers who were quite nice, but nobody listen to at any time

[Guest bonza]

Youre lucky Nigel.

Most of our teachers were more concerned with getting our attention than helping us learn, or understand, anything. But that IS ancient history.

Pat