Remains discovered at Verdun

[CROONAERT]

...The station buildings were behind where the Memorial now stands and the lines ran across the back of the car park as it was....

...as can be seen in this near-as-damn-it match up map image (Oct 1916 and 2010).....

Dave

[johnboy]

and I'm sure I saw a wild boar in the trees

That must have been well scary. Weren't you scared it might fall out?

Seriously, though, a very interesting thread.

[Fattyowls]

...as can be seen in this near-as-damn-it match up map image (Oct 1916 and 2010).....

Dave

Dave

Brilliant bit of cartography, thank you. I've realised by looking at it that my understanding of the battles for the village was faulty. I thought the Germans pushed along the connecting ridge from the north when the positions of the trenches suggests that the attacks were possibly more from the east up from the ravine. It makes the need to take Fort Vaux to allow the attacks to take place more obvious.

Pete.

[Fattyowls]

and I'm sure I saw a wild boar in the trees

That must have been well scary. Weren't you scared it might fall out?

Seriously, though, a very interesting thread.

JB

How terrifying would it be if they could climb trees? I was with a touring party that had lunch at the picnic area near the quarries. I was last on the bus and I think the wild porker may have been waiting for us to leave before checking if we'd dropped any tasty morsels. That said I read in another post somewhere on here that a family of wild boar had been spotted in the Lochnagar crater. It just reinforces my view that wild boar are best encountered in roast form.

It is as you say a very interesting post if you ignore my bogus battlefield balance issues and spurious sausage interventions. I was going to say lots of food for thought but that would just be wrong.

Pete

[Christina Holstein]

Some years ago, when they were clearing the ditch at Fort Douaumont, the workmen always had an armed hunter with them to deal with any boar that might emerge from the undergrowth. I never heard that any did.

Pete - there aren't many places on the battlefield that bother me. I don't like Haudraumont Quarries or the marsh at the foot of the Mort Homme on the north side but most places feel calm. Having said that, I always find walking into Dame Ravine (the one below the Tr. of Bayonets) along the path that parallels the top of the hill on which the Ossuary stands is just like walking into a tunnel.

Christina

[Fattyowls]

Some years ago, when they were clearing the ditch at Fort Douaumont, the workmen always had an armed hunter with them to deal with any boar that might emerge from the undergrowth. I never heard that any did.

Pete - there aren't many places on the battlefield that bother me. I don't like Haudraumont Quarries or the marsh at the foot of the Mort Homme on the north side but most places feel calm. Having said that, I always find walking into Dame Ravine (the one below the Tr. of Bayonets) along the path that parallels the top of the hill on which the Ossuary stands is just like walking into a tunnel.

Christina

Christina

Do any of your publications on Verdun give details of how you can hire an armed hunter? The BBC are currently running a nature programme called Hidden Kingdoms and when I tuned in on Sunday there was a close up of a boar in widescreen high definition. Not impressed.

If you don't mind me asking what is it about the Haudraumont quarries that you don't like? Apart from my issues with the species Sus scrofa I found it immensely frustrating that there is no way you can see the importance of the position in relation to the Ravin de la Dame; but then it's on a long list of places where you can't see the wood for the trees. I've never encountered the marsh on the north side of the Mort Homme; one of my favourite places is on the other side of the hill just north of Chattancourt where you used to get a fantastic view of the hills on the other side of the Meuse. It brought home to me how the French artillery must have been able to sweep the hills and fire into the rear of the German positions.

Pete.

[Christina Holstein]

No, I've no idea where you can hire a hunter but I could certainly find out. It would cost you a lot of money.

Haudromont quarries - it's partly that they're so overgrown and it's partly because the first time I was there, someone had made a fire there and I had a feeling that someone had been camping in the old shelters. It's the only time I've ever seen anything like that at Verdun and I found it unnerving. I suppose the marsh is unnerving too. The trees are twisted and scrawny and some of them grow in the water. There must be lots of men there too. What's that battle where men died in a marsh or lake and the water froze over them so they could be seen through the ice? That's what I think of when I'm there.

For extensive views I really like that line of hills south of Chattancourt. They're just the place to get an idea about the importance of the Mort Homme and 304 for observation and the wonderful field of fire for the French artillery behind and around the forts. It would be good if they'd cut down some of the trees on the top of the Mort Homme so you could see the Right Bank better but they'd have to keep doing it every few years or the view would just disappear again.

As for the Ravin de la Dame I don't know of any place you could stand to get an idea of it's importance.

Christina

[Fattyowls]

No, I've no idea where you can hire a hunter but I could certainly find out. It would cost you a lot of money.

Haudromont quarries - it's partly that they're so overgrown and it's partly because the first time I was there, someone had made a fire there and I had a feeling that someone had been camping in the old shelters. It's the only time I've ever seen anything like that at Verdun and I found it unnerving. I suppose the marsh is unnerving too. The trees are twisted and scrawny and some of them grow in the water. There must be lots of men there too. What's that battle where men died in a marsh or lake and the water froze over them so they could be seen through the ice? That's what I think of when I'm there.

For extensive views I really like that line of hills south of Chattancourt. They're just the place to get an idea about the importance of the Mort Homme and 304 for observation and the wonderful field of fire for the French artillery behind and around the forts. It would be good if they'd cut down some of the trees on the top of the Mort Homme so you could see the Right Bank better but they'd have to keep doing it every few years or the view would just disappear again.

As for the Ravin de la Dame I don't know of any place you could stand to get an idea of it's importance.

Christina

Christina

I wasn't being entirely serious about the hire of un veneur; forgive me. I could imagine it would be quite expensive; I just can't seem to get the idea of wild boar out of my head at the moment. Was the battle with the frozen soldiers maybe the Mansurian Lakes on the Eastern Front? I think there's a section in one of Sergei Eisenstein's movies where the Teutonic knights disappear through the surface of a frozen lake, I can't remember which one.

I've noticed that some of the British and Commonwealth Memorials have had some trees cleared to allow a better impression of the importance of the position. I think the Hill 62 memorial has had some of the trees removed to give a view back into Ypres. Given the iconic status of the Mort Homme and Cote 304 as you say a bit of tree surgery would help to bring home the significance of the hills to the battlefield. That said it would be a fairly major undertaking if I remember correctly; isn't Cote 304 quite flat around the summit? I'd like to go back to that spot near Chattancourt as I have a panorama which I took in the 90's but it is 35mm and it is so much easier now to make a composite view with digital technology. I've tried wandering around the area with Google Earth but it's not the same.

The only place I can think of where you get some impression of the Ravin de la Dame/Mort is from the lantern of the Ossuary; I think if you were there with a low sun you could probably get a good impression of the curves. I have a postcard in my collection without the trees which give you an impression from what seems to be the Haudraumont end. There are some grim sections of front line that must have been a nightmare to defend between the coast and the Swiss border but I can't think of anywhere else that comes close. Maybe Delville Wood in late July and August would be the nearest in the British and Commonwealth sectors. I'm sure there may be other contenders.

Given that we know your least favourite spots around Verdun do you have a favourite?

Pete.

[Fattyowls]

Rather than just talking about a picture I thought how about scanning it. The Ravin de la Mort as discussed above.....

[Christina Holstein]

That's a great picture, Pete. Taken in the late 20s I should think (could be later), with trenches still visible on the hillsides.

Favorite places - well now, anywhere on the front above Flabas as far as the monument under which Col. Driant is buried, anywhere around Fort Douaumont, also Hassoule Ravine and La Vauche in deep winter silence, Rousses Ravine in summer, Albain Ravine anytime ... but for sheer making me stand still and think about how unimaginably awful it all was nothing beats the track up Fumin Ravine from Vaux pond to the now vanished position named R4. If you leave the main track to go up to DV3 and then follow the bike path up to DV4 and look at the incredibly steep hillside above you and think that the Germans were trying to cross from the left to where you're standing, with the French above lobbing grenades down ... it's not a pretty thought.

Christina

[ph0ebus]

Christina

Was the battle with the frozen soldiers maybe the Mansurian Lakes on the Eastern Front? I think there's a section in one of Sergei Eisenstein's movies where the Teutonic knights disappear through the surface of a frozen lake, I can't remember which one.

Pete.

You have certainly caught my interest with the sentence above, as my grandfather fought at the Mansurian Lakes. If you (or another pal) can tell me where I might read about what you wrote (or just a book/section of a book about the battle there) preferably in English, that would be greatly appreciated!

I hope one day to make the trip to Verdun and this (and the other Verdun threads) are providing me with all sorts of inspiration and ideas, not to mention an education.

-Daniel

[Fattyowls]

You have certainly caught my interest with the sentence above, as my grandfather fought at the Mansurian Lakes. If you (or another pal) can tell me where I might read about what you wrote (or just a book/section of a book about the battle there) preferably in English, that would be greatly appreciated!

I hope one day to make the trip to Verdun and this (and the other Verdun threads) are providing me with all sorts of inspiration and ideas, not to mention an education.

-Daniel

Daniel

I hope you can make it to Verdun; I think everyone with more than a passing interest in the Great War should. I am feeling it's pull with every passing post; and we are so lucky to have such a level of expertise making contributions.

Pete.

P.S. Any chance of above zero temperatures for the Superbowl on Sunday?

[keithmroberts]

I'm trying to work out whether I can make it to Verdun in late spring. I have never been there, and it is a massive gap in my experience. I'm looking forward to hearing, and hopefully meeting Christine at the GWF Conference in March.

Christine - I'm not sure of your arrangements, but I can commend the Friday evening at the OC, and a final leisurely meal afterwards at Akbar's.

Keith

[Seadog]

You will not regret visiting this place Keith but be warned to take every precaution you can against the mosquitoes which are a pest at the time of year you are contemplating a visit. May I suggest that the autumn would be a much better time.

Regards

Norman

[Christina Holstein]

I'll be there on Friday evening, Keith. Looking forward to meeting you all at the OC and after.

I disagree with Norman on spring/autumn. Take plenty of mosquito repellent and go in spring before the trees are in full leaf and the undergrowth thickens. There's too much vegetation in autumn until late November and they're hunting by then.

[keithmroberts]

Thanks both - I do quite a bit of walking, so loads of spray makes much sense to me. Thanks for the reminder. Timing is not down to me alone.

Keith

[Fattyowls]

Thanks both - I do quite a bit of walking, so loads of spray makes much sense to me. Thanks for the reminder. Timing is not down to me alone.

Keith

Keith; you may remember this thread; everything you want to know about mosquito repellancy and much you probably don't. Caryl's posts are very good.

[keithmroberts]

Yes indeed. I think my current supply is the lifesystems variety. but I will check and ensure that I am fully stocked before my visit.

Keith

[Seadog]

On the subject of Mosquitoes (Last time honest) I do urge extreme caution to those from the UK visiting the Verdun area as during one visit a companion was extremely badly bitten. I have no doubt whatsoever that for some reason these little pests have greatly increased over the last few years.

Even here in my part of England in 2012 there were media reports of people needing to use mosquito nets at night, something which is totally alien to my experience. Having been badly bitten in the UK some of which bites were then infected I would not even venture into the forests without taking very sensible precautions in relation to clothing and liberal applications of such sprays as those from Lifesystems,

Here endeth the lesson

Norman

[Fattyowls]

On the subject of Mosquitoes (Last time honest)

Norman

I said that about wild boar and found myself posting yet more porcine drivel in the who is this thread late last night (Mr Skip laid a trap and I fell into it). I got well and truly bitten in Ieper in September (edit: by mosquitoes not wild boar, just wanted to make that clear). I put it down to the fact that I am a very attractive man; females find me irresistible. Unfortunately the females in question have six legs and are a centimetre long......

I'm sure Keith has covered all the bases as they say.

Pete.

[Fattyowls]

For extensive views I really like that line of hills south of Chattancourt. They're just the place to get an idea about the importance of the Mort Homme and 304 for observation and the wonderful field of fire for the French artillery behind and around the forts.

Just to illustrate Christina's point I've done some very low tech activity with some 35mm photos, some bluetack and some card (from the package that "Walking Verdun" arrived in by cooincidence). This was actually taken just north of Chattancourt with the Mort Homme behind me. The Meuse curves away towards the hills in the middle distance and the tall tree on the right of shot is nearly touching the horizon between the tower of the ossuary and the hump of Fort Souville. I think Fort Vacherauville at the end of the Bois Bourrus ridge is on the extreme right of shot.

Pete.

[Christina Holstein]

Thanks for posting that, Pete. It certainly gives an idea of the extensive views available to observers on the Mort-Homme and why those hills were important. I have a book on the battle by Col. Marchal published in the early 20s as a series of tours on the ground and it's fantastic what could be seen at that time from each side of the river. In his Mort-Homme section he takes visitors to Cumieres before they begin their tour (by car!)and points out places on the Right Bank that can't be picked out today - Brabant, Consenvoye wood, Ormont Hill, Haumont Wood, Caures Wood and all sorts of other places. It's extraordinary to think they could all be seen then. You could also see plenty of nearby places that are hidden by trees today. It would be nice to think that one day someone in a position to get changes made would understand the importance of sight lines but I won't hold my breath

I hope you enjoy Walking Verdun and thanks for buying it.

Christina

[Fattyowls]

Thanks for posting that, Pete. It certainly gives an idea of the extensive views available to observers on the Mort-Homme and why those hills were important. I have a book on the battle by Col. Marchal published in the early 20s as a series of tours on the ground and it's fantastic what could be seen at that time from each side of the river. In his Mort-Homme section he takes visitors to Cumieres before they begin their tour (by car!)and points out places on the Right Bank that can't be picked out today - Brabant, Consenvoye wood, Ormont Hill, Haumont Wood, Caures Wood and all sorts of other places. It's extraordinary to think they could all be seen then. You could also see plenty of nearby places that are hidden by trees today. It would be nice to think that one day someone in a position to get changes made would understand the importance of sight lines but I won't hold my breath

I hope you enjoy Walking Verdun and thanks for buying it.

Christina

I'm looking forward to reading it Christina; I've not read much about Verdun for a while (and it's been mostly about French and German strategy rather than the battlefield); as you may have gathered my passion for the mill on the Meuse has been reawakened. I used to know more about the French in WW1 and particularly Verdun than I did about the British battlefields largely thanks to Alastair Horne's Price of Glory and the reading that it inspired. I've been redressing the balance somewhat in the last few years and have concentrated on places further north but those rainy hills still fascinate me. I think you can 'get your mind up into that space' as the Americans say; your fascination is clear from your excellent posts in this thread. Thanks again.

Pete.

P.S. I've just pulled out my reprint of the Michelin Guide to Verdun; some of the photography in there is jaw dropping but often frustratingly tiny. I keep looking at the photo taken from Vaux across to the Ossuary and Douaumont that I posted in your other thread and think exactly the same about those sight lines. I think all the men that struggled for those hills deserve it.

I've found a couple more of my old 35mm photographs which I'm going to glue together tomorrow which I hope will show the Ossuary and I think Souville from the same spot near Chattancourt.

[Seadog]

Right NOW on Ch 38 the episode of Doomsday is about the battle of Verdun.........be quick and catch 75% remaining.

Norman

[healdav]

I was at Verdun last week. Anyone going there in the near future should know that the entire battlefield is just one big swamp, with deep mud. The two of us were solid mud from the waist down when we got out.

It's not helped by a lot of forestry work going on that is reducing the tracks to thick soupy mud.