Remains discovered at Verdun

[Seadog]

You are right Pete it is important to keep your wits about you anywhere off the beaten track. On my first visit to the Butte de Vauquois and in a wooded area under the hill there were very many calthrop spiked anti-personnel devices scattered over the ground and stepping on one would have most defiantly spoilt my day!

Regards

Norman

[Fattyowls]

I've just had to correct my earlier post about falling into things at Verdun; the ravine I nearly fell into near the Tranchee du Bayonets is of course the Ravin de la Dame; later renamed the Ravin de la Mort.

Je suis desolee.Je vais obtenir mon manteau (I'd be interested in where the accents are on my laptop too...)

Pete.

[Fattyowls]

You are right Pete it is important to keep your wits about you anywhere off the beaten track. On my first visit to the Butte de Vauquois and in a wooded area under the hill there were very many calthrop spiked anti-personnel devices scattered over the ground and stepping on one would have most defiantly spoilt my day!

Regards

Norman

Wise words mate; I think Vaquois is absolutely amazing and along with Les Eparges is really worth a visit. Which side of the line were you, were they German or French spikey things?

Pete.

[Seadog]

Sorry Pete as it was a first visit to this remarkable area I have no idea which side of the lines I was on but the fact that these devices were still lying around after such a time was a revelation to me and I dare say the visitor will still see such sights even today, just be careful. I have no wish to divert this important thread of course but just one last thing, it was on the Mort Homme that having returned to the car we found that someone had left a pile of battlefield artifacts for us mainly cooking utensils and drinking mugs etc, what a place this is!

Regards

Norman

[healdav]

Sorry Pete as it was a first visit to this remarkable area I have no idea which side of the lines I was on but the fact that these devices were still lying around after such a time was a revelation to me and I dare say the visitor will still see such sights even today, just be careful. I have no wish to divert this important thread of course but just one last thing, it was on the Mort Homme that having returned to the car we found that someone had left a pile of battlefield artifacts for us mainly cooking utensils and drinking mugs etc, what a place this is!

Regards

Norman

I pointed this out not long ago and the penalties which are handed down for taking them, etc and got accused of making it up (more or less). Saw several shells yesterday, all marked in orange by the foresters so that they could be found by the right people.

[Fattyowls]

I pointed this out not long ago and the penalties which are handed down for taking them, etc and got accused of making it up (more or less). Saw several shells yesterday, all marked in orange by the foresters so that they could be found by the right people.

Healdav, it's an important point. I have to remind myself that unlike say the Somme or the Salient where the land has been worked for 90 odd years the Verdun battlefield is effectively as it was and it can be argued that the shellfire was more concentrated. As Norman says it's remarkable none the less; I've always been of the view that everyone with an interest in the Great War should visit.

Pete.

[Christina Holstein]

The hole could be connected with Gallwitz tunnel but I'm not sure. There were three tunnels on the Mort-Homme - Gallwitz, Bismarck and Kron Prinz. A Franco-German group did some work inside them mapping and surveying some years ago - with permission - but the entrances are closed up now although I understand it's still possible to get inside Gallwitz.

If it is the hole I remember, I picked up a couple of little apples there once that had falled from a tree just next to it. It must be 20 years go now. As apple trees don't grow in that part of the forest I wondered if they'd grownfrom cores thrown away by soldiers during the war.

Christina

[Seadog]

Thanks for the info Christina.

Norman

[egbert]

The hole could be connected with Gallwitz tunnel but I'm not sure. There were three tunnels on the Mort-Homme - Gallwitz, Bismarck and Kron Prinz. A Franco-German group did some work inside them mapping and surveying some years ago - with permission - but the entrances are closed up now although I understand it's still possible to get inside Gallwitz.

If it is the hole I remember, I picked up a couple of little apples there once that had falled from a tree just next to it. It must be 20 years go now. As apple trees don't grow in that part of the forest I wondered if they'd grownfrom cores thrown away by soldiers during the war.

Christina

Christina, I am sure these were Dutch apples. there is a Dutch Group that entered the tunnel illegally and filmed their tunnel walks, available on youtube

[Fattyowls]

The hole could be connected with Gallwitz tunnel but I'm not sure. There were three tunnels on the Mort-Homme - Gallwitz, Bismarck and Kron Prinz. A Franco-German group did some work inside them mapping and surveying some years ago - with permission - but the entrances are closed up now although I understand it's still possible to get inside Gallwitz.

If it is the hole I remember, I picked up a couple of little apples there once that had falled from a tree just next to it. It must be 20 years go now. As apple trees don't grow in that part of the forest I wondered if they'd grownfrom cores thrown away by soldiers during the war.

Christina

Thanks Christina; I was aware of the Kronprinz and Gallwitz tunnels but I'd not come across the Bismark one, at least in the sense of reading about it (I may have slid into a concealed entrance*). As for the story of the apples you would just want it to be true somehow.

Pete.

*I promise that will be the last lame attempt to milk the "Pete falls into holes at Verdun" joke cycle. Enough already.......

[Christina Holstein]

I've seen the YouTube video but it's not old. I picked up the apples in about 1994. I took them home and thought I'd plant the seeds but there were no seeds inside. The trees they came from were old and rather shrunken-looking. They hadn't grown recently.

Yes, you would want it to be true, wouldn't you? I certainly did.

Christina

[CROONAERT]

... I was aware of the Kronprinz and Gallwitz tunnels but I'd not come across the Bismark one, at least in the sense of reading about it ...

The Bismarck Tunnel was also known (to the French) as the 'Tunnel du Mort-Homme' ('Kronprinz' was the 'Tunnel du Cumont', and 'Gallwitz' was the 'Tunnel des Corbeaux'). You may have come across it named as such?

Dave

[Fattyowls]

The Bismarck Tunnel was also known (to the French) as the 'Tunnel du Mort-Homme' ('Kronprinz' was the 'Tunnel du Cumont', and 'Gallwitz' was the 'Tunnel des Corbeaux'). You may have come across it named as such?

Dave

Dave

Thank you for this; I'd not heard the French names either. I've not read a great deal about Verdun in the last 10 years apart from Christina's Douaumont book which is why her posts on the subject and information about the tunnels are so interesting for me.

Pete.

[Christina Holstein]

I'd never seen the name Tunnel du Cumont before. Oddly enough all the French people I know out use the German names.

Christina

[CROONAERT]

Tunnel du Cumont... as named on a 1918 French trenchmap (along with, on this particular map, the (mis-spelled) Germanic name in brackets)..

[CROONAERT]

Tunnel du Mort Homme...

[CROONAERT]

Tunnel des Corbeaux ....

[Fattyowls]

Dave

Presumably at the time the 1918 map was in use most if not all of the tunnels would be in French hands following the successful recapture of le Mort Homme on 20th August 1917?

Pete.

[CROONAERT]

Dave

Presumably at the time the 1918 map was in use most if not all of the tunnels would be in French hands following the successful recapture of le Mort Homme on 20th August 1917?

Pete.

Yes. The earliest map I have showing French names for the tunnels (that also roughly gives the course of the underground tunnels) is dated October 1917. Prior to that, just the entrance/exits are shown with a rough connecting line. On the maps that I have access to, 'Kronprinz' appears to be named as such on most 1916/early 1917 maps, but the others appear just as 'tunnel' without a name until later in 1917. However, as to exactly when the French re-christened these tunnels, I've no idea...but it would look like post- Sept 1917.

Dave

[Seadog]

This is the forum at its best and the level of expertise is amazing, of course the subject itself, Verdun is of enduring interest and a must visit for anyone interested in WW1.

Regards

Norman

PS Super postcard of the tunnel entrance.

[CROONAERT]

On the maps that I have access to, 'Kronprinz' appears to be named as such on most 1916/early 1917 maps, but the others appear just as 'tunnel' without a name until later in 1917.

For example.... this is 'Gallwitz' as depicted in November 1916...

[Fattyowls]

This is the forum at its best and the level of expertise is amazing, of course the subject itself, Verdun is of enduring interest and a must visit for anyone interested in WW1.

Regards

Norman

PS Super postcard of the tunnel entrance.

Norman, I couldn't agree more; I've learned more in the last few days about Verdun than I have in the last decade. Thanks to everyone who's contributed.

P.S I've been looking for that postcard all day but found it on the web. I bought a set of them from the entrance to Fort Douaumont while I was waiting for the touring party I was with to emerge from the subterranean depths. I have been into Douaumont once and vowed never again; I normally sit on top of the concrete observation post and marvel at the view. That one has gone missing; it will be in a pile somewhere or as a bookmark. The others have some views which are no longer possible because of the trees.

Pete.

[Christina Holstein]

It's interesting that you didn't want to go into Ft. Douaumont. I spent hours in there while I was writing about the Fort and it never bothered me. In those days you could go into all sorts of places that were officially closed off but as I was known to the authorities I was just given a torch and told how to get in. To me it was a place that was full of people I 'knew', particularly the lower floor. I always found it friendly towards me, if you know what I mean

The only French veteran I ever met was a gunner who one hot day back in June 1991 or thereabouts was sitting on a bench outside the fort. He was with a group that had gone inside but he wouldn't go in with them. He preferred the sunlight.

Christina

[David Filsell]

Of equal interest on the postcard is the caption by Arnold Zweig. His novel Education Before Verdun is well worth reading.

[Fattyowls]

It's interesting that you didn't want to go into Ft. Douaumont. I spent hours in there while I was writing about the Fort and it never bothered me. In those days you could go into all sorts of places that were officially closed off but as I was known to the authorities I was just given a torch and told how to get in. To me it was a place that was full of people I 'knew', particularly the lower floor. I always found it friendly towards me, if you know what I mean

The only French veteran I ever met was a gunner who one hot day back in June 1991 or thereabouts was sitting on a bench outside the fort. He was with a group that had gone inside but he wouldn't go in with them. He preferred the sunlight.

Christina

Christina

I've been thinking about this all day and I honestly can't come up with a coherent answer as to why I won't go in anymore. It's nothing to do with claustrophobia as I've been inside Vaux several times but then it is always so tidy I could imagine Commandant Raynal being proud. It's not the number of the dead still walled up in the casement; it's not the dark as I've been in the Tavannes tunnel and not got the same feeling. I think it was the damp and the cold with the dripping water, the walls running and the mould growing everywhere. I found the mechanism of the 155mm turret fascinating and was interested to follow in the footsteps of St Kunze and Lt Radke (although not of the disreputable Lt Brandis). Also the top of the fort is the one place where you can get all the sight lines; it seems a waste to be deep inside the fort. I know of no other place that I have visited on the Western Front where you can see so much; there is nowhere on the Somme or around Ypres where you get the same panorama. It was for this reason that I was so interested in what you can see looking out over the plain of the Woevre. For me it is as if you can see the whole of the First World War radiating out from that one point. Maybe like your friend the French gunner I just prefer the sunshine.

I can understand your sense of being amongst friends and of the fort being your friend; I think by telling the story you honour both the fort and the men of both sides who fought so hard and endured so much.

Pete.