Still Unburied 2014

[MelPack]

Norman

The details about the OBLI subaltern are in post 76 ff in this thread.

That aside, I honestly cannot see that there is anything to be exercised about. I acknowledge your passion about the reburial of remains that come to light but surely the most important objective is to give a man back his identity wherever possible?

I suggest that you read this story here about 20 year old Lewis Curtis at pp13-17 and then tell me why nine years in a mortuary awaiting reburial is so repugnant:

http://www.thewardrobe.org.uk/dyn/files/20121122redcoatsnewsletter2012.pdf

Mel

[Seadog]

Obviously as far as I am concerned this particular conversation is going nowhere, so finally I would just add these two points to this part of the topic. Read the extract from the Minister and consider also why the MOD has reached agreement with the CWGC to bury all finds within 18 months of discovery. I really cannot add anything more to this as I tried to explain in my previous post save the fact that I could of course have not posted anything about this subject inc letters, emails etc which would have made no difference to the ultimate outcome. The reason why I have is simple this is a forum dedicated to all aspects of the Great War and I felt that it was only right and proper that members were kept informed of this particular aspect of the conflict.

Regards

Norman

[Seadog]

For member’s information:

Extracts (Unedited) from a CWGC letter a copy of which I received on the 12/7/14

1.0 as a consequence of concerns expressed by our Commissioners, an 18 month timescale for progressing British discovery of remains cases to burial was agreed with UK MOD, the actual agreement being signed off by the offices of the Veterans Minister in January 2013.

2.0 Since the implementation of the agreement to bury within an 18 month timescale, MOD, working with the Commission in France, has progressed the burial of 14 casualties during 2013 and 20 casualties so far during 2014. Further burials are planned in France during 2014, including a series of 5 unknown soldiers at the end of the summer and the 15 York and Lancaster casualties to be buried at Y Farm Military Cemetery on 22 October 2014

3.0 I am unsure of the origin of Mr ***** figure of 51 casualties, but assuming that all of the burials planned for later this year proceed, MOD will have exceeded this number in France since the implementation of the agreement. Additionally MOD has also progressed a small number of burials in other countries too.

Comments

1.0 Confirmation that the CWGC was concerned at the lack of action by the MOD in releasing remains for burial

2.0 I assume that the 20 buried so far in 2014 includes both WW1 and WW2 etc. I am unable to conform this with the announcements made by the CWGC on their website under “Events”

3.0 I cannot understand this as the figure of 51 comes from the Minister and I would have thought that this should have been accurate.

The letter from the CWGC makes no mention of the number of burials still outstanding according to their records.

Norman

[MelPack]

On 13/07/2014 at 17:07, seadog said:

For member’s information:

Extracts (Unedited) from a CWGC letter a copy of which I received on the 12/7/14

2.0 I assume that the 20 buried so far in 2014 includes both WW1 and WW2 etc. I am unable to conform this with the announcements made by the CWGC on their website under “Events”

Norman

The 20 burials referred to were Pte. McAleer and 19 unknowns at Loos on 14 March last.

 

Mel

[Seadog]

Thanks Mel

I had previously and as a rule of thumb estimated from figures supplied by the then Shadow Defence Secretary of the finds by year less the known burials as detailed on the CWGC website that there were about 70 sets of remains awaiting burial so on that basis the figure of 51 still outstanding seems about right.

Norman

[Seadog]

The CWGC have passed my request for confirmation of the number of remains unburied to the MOD and here is the response from Sue Raftree of the JCCC. Excellent news about the identification of another of the BL-15 making 11 currently identified and leaving a total of 36 for which no burial arrangements have yet been announced My request for confirmation of the outstanding burials was prompted by the comment from the CWGC as detailed in 3.0 of Post 103 above.

Response

The MoD are aware of 51 sets of remains stored by the CWGC in Northern France and Belgium . These include remains from both WW1 and WW2: 8 of which are members of commonwealth forces. Of the remaining 43 individuals believed to be British: 28 sets of remains in France and 12 in Belgium are from WW1 whilst a further 3 sets of remains in France date from WW2. Please note the numbers are fluid because as we are regularly being informed of new finds or new information comes to light to suggest different national identity. Given your interest in the Beaucamps Ligny find, you may wish to be aware that an additional York and Lancaster soldier has recently been positively identified and the relatives informed. He is Private William Butterworth. This means 11 of the 15 sets of remains have now been identified. I am sure you will agree this is excellent news.

Norman

[Seadog]

My reply to the above:

Dear Sue (Raftree)

Many thanks for your email in response to my request for confirmation of the number of outstanding burials given the comment by the CWGC that they did not know where the figure of 51 came from that was quoted by Lord Astor in a reply to Lord Faulkner. That is splendid news about the ID of yet another of the BL-15 and reflects the excellent efforts and expertise being applied by all those concerned; amazing that after 100 years the majority of the soldiers will receive the dignity of a named headstone which they so richly deserve. I am sure we all look forward to announcements confirming the burial of the majority of the remaining soldiers whose discovery falls within the 18 months agreed timescale.

Norman

[Seadog]

The latest announcement by the CWGC (Below) means that there are now 31 outstanding reburials which excludes the BL-15. This is based on the figure supplied by the MOD and there may of course have been other finds since then

http://www.cwgc.org/news-events/news/2014/8/reburials-france.aspx

Norman

[JohnHenrys Grand-daughter]

There would be a very logical,and simple, cost effective answer to the problem of the indentification problem.

A DNA bank.

If the M.O.D asked for DNA,from relatives of the missing,with a certified guarantee of privacy ,placing a nationwide,appropriate request via media sources,that may solve many more of the I.D"s than the present footwork

.

If no relative can be found within a specific timescale,with no DNA match,the deceased could be interred with full honours,within a shorter timescale ,with their DNA on the database,and maybe,eventual identification, as the whole process would be recorded,with full and complete details of the deceased,(stating the obvious )and grave location,should there be a DNA match at a later date.

In respect of this,the DNA would be there for future finds,it would give our men,their name and identity back,remains could be disturbed and found for hundreds of years,when any possibility of family being found is negligible.These men will always be remembered,but in time,the individuals will be so distant,that the living generation wont care,maybe care is not the right word,maybe forgotten would be more appropriate.

My Grandfather is missing,I would certainly back this procedure,and give DNA,to have him identified and reinterred if found ,as I am sure anyone who has family still missing would.

The process would be very cost effective,saving hours of guesswork,time,and the remains being unburried for decades.

If the policing authorities can do that for tracking felons,so the MOD could do it for our dead war heros,and living families,they have a duty to,in my eyes.

And whilst I am here,on another note,I will mention my Grandfather...As I am very proud of him,and I have been told that not everyone wants the world to know their business..well heres mine..

Pte JOHN HENRY STEVENSON,70th MGC,Fell,Missing,Thiepval,1st JULY 1916.

GOD BLESS TOU GRANFATHER MAY YOU SLEEP WITH THE ANGELS...

[egbert]

Response

The MoD are aware of 51 sets of remains stored by the CWGC in Northern France and Belgium ..........

Whilst English is not my mother language, I am sure the facets of English language has by far better suited words than "storage" for what once were proud human beings. Somebody please proof me wrong.

[JohnHenrys Grand-daughter]

Egbert,

you are quite correct,MAYBE,members who have no one missing MAY think that way,as there is no personal loss.

It could have been said better.

[Seadog]

There would be a very logical,and simple, cost effective answer to the problem of the indentification problem.

A DNA bank.

If the M.O.D asked for DNA,from relatives of the missing,with a certified guarantee of privacy ,placing a nationwide,appropriate request via media sources,that may solve many more of the I.D"s than the present footwork

.

If no relative can be found within a specific timescale,with no DNA match,the deceased could be interred with full honours,within a shorter timescale ,with their DNA on the database,and maybe,eventual identification, as the whole process would be recorded,with full and complete details of the deceased,(stating the obvious )and grave location,should there be a DNA match at a later date.

In respect of this,the DNA would be there for future finds,it would give our men,their name and identity back,remains could be disturbed and found for hundreds of years,when any possibility of family being found is negligible.These men will always be remembered,but in time,the individuals will be so distant,that the living generation wont care,maybe care is not the right word,maybe forgotten would be more appropriate.

My Grandfather is missing,I would certainly back this procedure,and give DNA,to have him identified and reinterred if found ,as I am sure anyone who has family still missing would.

The process would be very cost effective,saving hours of guesswork,time,and the remains being unburried for decades.

If the policing authorities can do that for tracking felons,so the MOD could do it for our dead war heros,and living families,they have a duty to,in my eyes.

If I understand this post correctly the suggestion is that the relatives (if they still exist) of the tens of thousands of those soldiers “Missing” supply the correct type of DNA sample which will then form a database to be matched with the DNA taken from the human remains found. What about the vast number of those missing and buried as unknown surely none of these will ever be subject to DNA profiling. Where exactly does the idea that this will be “Cost effective and simple” come from, as I say I may not be understanding this post. In case we forget it should be remembered that the case of the BL-15 which eventually used DNA so successfully took five years to come to completion so just how long it would take to obtain, verify and create the sort of database suggested above is anyone`s guess.

Norman

[JohnHenrys Grand-daughter]

Dear Norman,

I was assuming that logically, it would be taken as from present day,I didnt feel the need to put that in there, "As with time,you can only move forward,never back"

As,you quite rightly say,some remains are already interred,I am sure no one would want a sanctified grave to be disturbed,that equation does not even enter into it.Quite simple really.

The objective could be reached quite efficiently,if organised,planned and set into action correctly.

[JohnHenrys Grand-daughter]

Egbert,

you are quite correct,maybe,members who have no one missing may think that way,as there is no personal loss,but it could have been said better.

Again,Dear Norman,

I wrote on my post,"members who have no one missing MAY think that way",it is not an assumption,or definition,accusation or anything else belligerent in anyway,just the other side of the coin,as I always try to look at both sides,and if you took it as so,you are quite wrong in your translation.

I know no one here,and I certainly would not be so rude as to comment on anyone in any personal way.

In future,if you have anything to say,may I suggest you place it in the thread to which the post is written,and not send a PM,if you have something to say,be open and say it,unless of course you cant repeat it in public,in which case,you should keep it to yourself.

[Seadog]

Dear Norman,

I was assuming that logically it would be taken as from present day,I didnt feel the need to put that in there,as,you quite rightly say,some remains are already interred,and if one of those blessed unknowns was mine,I would not want him disturbing.Quite simple really.

The objective could be reached quite efficiently,if organised,planned and set into action.

Sorry I still cannot understand what you are getting at. Do you actually realize that there of many thousands of missing soldiers whose remains have not been found or who are buried as unknowns so just what are you suggesting for right now I am honestly at a loss to understand your posts.

Norman

[alastaircox]

You are over simplifying DNA testing. It is no use comparing the highly accurate techniques used by the police forensics, recovering recent and living tissue samples, with those used by forensic archaeologists recovering samples from 100+ year old bones or teeth. Throw into the mix other factors like the prevalence of illegitimacy, jumbled human remains, contamination during recovery and so on and you soon realise why DNA alone is not usually sufficient to identify our missing soldiers.

Google (or something more intelligent) the limitations of Mitochondrial DNA analysis.

[JohnHenrys Grand-daughter]

If I believe what I have read,DNA can be present for hundreds of years in a biological body. ( not meaning corpse)

Even illigitimate beings have parents and families,and contamination ,maybe,but I would be certain if this method would be viable,all neccssary precautions would be taken.

Plus I believe the MOD have already applied the procedure,although not on a grand scale,so viable it must be.

I may have simplified it,but rather better to simplify it, than go into great detail,it is after all just a comment,on a thread in a forum.

N.B Sorry,I do tend write very formally,and I cant appear to break the habit .

[alastaircox]

There are different types of DNA that can be analysed, mitochondrial being the one that survives in bone and teeth. On its own it is not enough to identify anyone with any accuracy, hence the need for other evidence (at Fromelles height, age, stature, injuries, artefacts etc. to build a reliable match).

To pluck a skeleton from the ground and match it to a database is nonsense, I am afraid.

[JohnHenrys Grand-daughter]

There are different types of DNA that can be analysed, mitochondrial being the one that survives in bone and teeth. On its own it is not enough to identify anyone with any accuracy, hence the need for other evidence (at Fromelles height, age, stature, injuries, artefacts etc. to build a reliable match).

To pluck a skeleton from the ground and match it to a database is nonsense, I am afraid.

Thank-you the imput,however ,to call it nonsense is not the correct term,I believe viable was the word you needed,nonsense has many connotations,and I am sure you are intending to be rude,but thank-you for your correction to my suggestion,I appreciate it.

[JohnHenrys Grand-daughter]

I have it on very good authority that DNA collection would/could be possible,so it confirms my thoughts on the process.

[Ellis1918]

Interesting article in Daily Mail on line today regarding possible identification of "Jack the ripper" and one of his victims using DNA extracted from an article of clothing.

[MelPack]

I have it on very good authority that DNA collection would/could be possible,so it confirms my thoughts on the process.

Excellent!

Given that you are not DNA compatible with your grandfather then your next steps are to:

• trace a living male from an unbroken line of males from your grandfather's brother, paternal uncle, paternal great uncle or paternal great, great uncle
• trace a living male or female from an unbroken line of females from your grandfather's sister, maternal aunt, maternal great aunt or maternal great, great aunt
• once you have verified and documented the genealogy then all you need to do is establish the full contact details of the said living parties and secure their consent to participate in the DNA data programme.

When you have compiled the aforesaid information then please pm me and I will ensure that your proposal is submitted to the appropriate authorities for consideration.

[alastaircox]

No intention of being rude, so please do not take it that way. I highly recommend that you get hold of a copy of the following, if you can, it is very informative:

"Remember Me To All, The Archaeological Recovery and Identification of soldiers who fought and died in the Battle of Fromelles 1916" Loe, Barker, Brady, Cox & Webb, Oxford Archaeology 2014

p. 206 "It must be stressed that DNA is not 'a golden bullet' for determining ID in cases of unidentified people who died almost a century ago. However it proved to be very useful as the initiation point for the identification process".

"it must be stressed that an ID indicated by a high match probability is only confirmed after all of the evidence from the historical, archaeological and anthropological record has been considered and is supportive, not contradictory".

It goes on in great detail about the difficulties and the need for additional evidence beyond the just the DNA.

[JohnHenrys Grand-daughter]

Excellent!

Given that you are not DNA compatible with your grandfather then your next steps are to:

• trace a living male from an unbroken line of males from your grandfather's brother, paternal uncle, paternal great uncle or paternal great, great uncle
• trace a living male or female from an unbroken line of females from your grandfather's sister, maternal aunt, maternal great aunt or maternal great, great aunt
• once you have verified and documented the genealogy then all you need to do is establish the full contact details of the said living parties and secure their consent to participate in the DNA data programme.

When you have compiled the aforesaid information then please pm me and I will ensure that your proposal is submitted to the appropriate authorities for consideration.

Otherwise..will I be shot at dawn.....?

I believe you missed your vocation.

[JohnHenrys Grand-daughter]

No intention of being rude, so please do not take it that way. I highly recommend that you get hold of a copy of the following, if you can, it is very informative:

"Remember Me To All, The Archaeological Recovery and Identification of soldiers who fought and died in the Battle of Fromelles 1916" Loe, Barker, Brady, Cox & Webb, Oxford Archaeology 2014

p. 206 "It must be stressed that DNA is not 'a golden bullet' for determining ID in cases of unidentified people who died almost a century ago. However it proved to be very useful as the initiation point for the identification process".

"it must be stressed that an ID indicated by a high match probability is only confirmed after all of the evidence from the historical, archaeological and anthropological record has been considered and is supportive, not contradictory".

It goes on in great detail about the difficulties and the need for additional evidence beyond the just the DNA.

Thank-you for your reply,reading which,I can say that DNA can, does and has played a part in identification,so I am not totally wrong.

I am in no way offended by your post,please dont think that,if I was,I would have told you directly.

I may read the book,it does sound very informative,many thanks for that too.

Kind Regards