Still Unburied 2014

[Seadog]

According to known facts there were a total of 77 individual sets of human remains indentified as UK servicemen found on the battlefield during the period 2008-2012 this from the MOD (see link). Given that we may assume that 21 of these refer to the Beaucamps-Ligny 15 (2009) plus the Comines 6 (2008-2010) then the total unknown that remain unburied stands at 56. From this we deduct the seven soldiers from 2008/2009 buried in 2011 (see link) leaving a “worse case scenario” of 49 individual soldiers remains unburied at this time. I appreciate that this figure may include both WW1 and WW2 remains plus the fact that the quantity of the individual remains is unknown except by the MOD.

This of course does not fully represent the actual total to-date of all the remains still unburied which sadly could be much higher than 49. It is not possible to ascertain the number of burials in the period 2008 – 2012 of those found within the two dates with absolute accuracy for although the CWGC have been persuaded to notify the interments on their web site they say that it is not possible to archive the information, strange when you see that currently on the “Events” section of their site there is info dating back to June 2012 so it is possible to retain such data. What a mess the MOD has got themselves into as regards the proper decent and dignified treatment of our fallen whose remains languish for years in a “mortuary” or cupboard with the CWGC and how disgusting the prospect is of £50 million being allocated to the “commemoration” of the 100^th anniversary when these men remain unburied.

Discoveries 2005 – 2012 Post 384
http://1914-1918.inv...c=137464&st=375

Interments 2011 – Post 2
http://1914-1918.inv...howtopic=166954

Norman

Added: I have asked the Shadow Secretary of Defence to obtain from the MOD the actual number of individual human remains that are unburied at this time, Jim Murphy MP had already supplied the info in Post 384 above following a previous request.

[Will O'Brien]

Norman

Whilst I do not dispute any of the numbers or timescales contained within your post, there is a glaring omission. You have not commented on why the remains have stayed unburied. If you are in receipt of this information, I think it should be added to your commentry to provide a full picture. If you don't know why, then in my opinion, comments regarding 'proper decent and dignified treatment of our fallen whose remains languish for years in a “mortuary” or cupboard' are unhelpful and possibly mis-leading.

[Seadog]

Not misleading to me, the reason why the (unconfirmed) number of remains are unburied is simply because the MOD have not provided the resources so that investigation can be completed in an acceptable timescale and the remains decently buried. Take for instance the Beaucamps-Ligny 15, found November 2009 and now still awaiting proper investigation although data has been provided to the MOD by both the Regimental Association and a member of this forum. There is much more information as to why the unacceptable delay occurs in the Beaucamps thread. I am glad you do not dispute my figures as the total number of "finds" 2008-2010 was supplied by the Secretary of Defence and the interments by the CWGC and as far as I am aware that info is also correct given that it is impossible to backtrack over the announcements made by the CWGC when interment of the found remains occur as they do not for some reason archive the details.

Norman

[horatio2]

Could you please tell us what resources the MOD have provided for these cases, on whose assessment these have been deemed inadequate and what determines an "acceptable timescale" (acceptable to whom?). Is there any evidence that remains are not being "decently" handled in the interim?

[Seadog]

The investigation into the discovered human remains of British servicemen and women is handled by the Joint Casualty and Compassion Centre (JCCC) based at Innsworth Gloucester. The staff allocated to historic "finds" is I believe ONE although I will be generous and call it TWO, as for the "decent" treatment of our fallen do you think that the way to treat these is to store the remains for at least three years and usually longer before even attempting to provide a positive ID which in most cases would not be possible anyway. Just consider as well that in the case of the WW1 "finds" there are still direct relatives of the fallen surviving but for how much longer given the unacceptable timescale between find and burial?. Just compare the situation with the UK fallen with that of the Pheasant Wood discoveries where no expense was spared in the effort to both ID the dead and give them a proper burial.

Norman

[Will O'Brien]

I'm sorry Norman but your comments are not evidence of any lack of 'proper decent and dignified treatment'. It is clear that you equate decency to the speed in which the remains are identified/re-interred & the money spent on fulfilling that. That is your prerogative, although it is not a position that I necessarily agree with.

Whilst in the perfect world, each discovery would be quickly identified if possible & given a full military burial, the realities of life in the 21st century are very different. I am pragmatic enough to accept that in a world of finite resource, the need for fiscal prudence whilst maintaining/adapting the structure of the British Armed Forces, the priorities of the MOD may not reflect what we would ideally like to happen for the rediscovered fallen. I believe your comments do them a disservice.

[Guest exuser1]

Norman IS correct ,this is nothing to do with can we afford another nuclear submarine ,or bury our dead of 100 years ago , the MOD should not play that old game same as they did in 1949 and HMS Implacable ,why is It the responsibility of the MOD if they do not care how long they take to either identify the remains or a least give some sort of decent burial ?

[Seadog]

I'm sorry Norman but your comments are not evidence of any lack of 'proper decent and dignified treatment'. It is clear that you equate decency to the speed in which the remains are identified/re-interred & the money spent on fulfilling that. That is your prerogative, although it is not a position that I necessarily agree with.

Whilst in the perfect world, each discovery would be quickly identified if possible & given a full military burial, the realities of life in the 21st century are very different. I am pragmatic enough to accept that in a world of finite resource, the need for fiscal prudence whilst maintaining/adapting the structure of the British Armed Forces, the priorities of the MOD may not reflect what we would ideally like to happen for the rediscovered fallen. I believe your comments do them a disservice.

I am willing to bet that you would not hold the opinion that you do if there was the possibility that a close relative of yours, say Grandfather or Great-grandfather was one of those stored for an indeterminate period and with no indication whatsoever of the likely prospect of identification and burial.

Norman

[Will O'Brien]

Norman IS correct ,this is nothing to do with can we afford another nuclear submarine ,or bury our dead of 100 years ago , the MOD should not play that old game same as they did in 1949 and HMS Implacable ,why is It the responsibility of the MOD if they do not care how long they take to either identify the remains or a least give some sort of decent burial ?

Again an emotive comment. What evidence is there that the MOD do not care? The length of time it takes to lay the fallen to rest is not necessarily evidence of a lack of care on their part.

[Will O'Brien]

I am willing to bet that you would not hold the opinion that you do if there was the possibility that a close relative of yours, say Grandfather or Great-grandfather was one of those stored for an indeterminate period and with no indication whatsoever of the likely prospect of identification and burial.

Norman

Norman. I hope you are not a betting man . You may notice from my signature that I do have a family member whose body has never been recovered from the battlefield. It does not change my opinion at all. I accept there are other more essential things that have to take priority. It's undoubtedly sad but it is the reality of the time that we live in. To suggest that the organisation that has to make those difficult decisions does so in a manner which means the fallen are not treated properly or with dignity is incorrect in my opinion.

[Guest exuser1]

Will emotive possibly but it's a very emotive subject ,though still no answer to the question if the MOD are not prepared either to do the job or give a timetable as to when this is settled , or are they waiting until time passes and not bother at all ? They don't seem to care about the bones of British soldiers scattering the field of Inkerman ,i know because I reported this to them and just got a shrug of the shoulders ?,

[Seadog]

This is what will happen based on previous cases.

The human remains will be discovered

The CWGC will inform the MOD in the case of the body/remains being British

The MOD will not issue any press release regarding the find

The CWGC will not issue any press release as they insist this is the responsibility of the

MOD

Nothing will be heard of the find for at least 3 years and possibly longer

Will DNA be used if the remains and circumstances are favourable, very unlikely as DNA has not been used as yet by the MOD

After the time period of 3-4 years the remains will ne released by the MOD and buried by

the CWGC as “Known unto God”

The CWGC will post brief details of the burial on their web site

This will be deleted following the burial

End

If you are happy with this state of affairs then so be it.

Norman

[horatio2]

The investigation into the discovered human remains of British servicemen and women is handled by the Joint Casualty and Compassion Centre (JCCC) based at Innsworth Gloucester. The staff allocated to historic "finds" is I believe ONE although I will be generous and call it TWO, as for the "decent" treatment of our fallen do you think that the way to treat these is to store the remains for at least three years and usually longer before even attempting to provide a positive ID which in most cases would not be possible anyway. Just consider as well that in the case of the WW1 "finds" there are still direct relatives of the fallen surviving but for how much longer given the unacceptable timescale between find and burial?. Just compare the situation with the UK fallen with that of the Pheasant Wood discoveries where no expense was spared in the effort to both ID the dead and give them a proper burial.

Norman

As I suspected, Norman, you are setting yourself up as a one man judge and jury on this matter. It is , of course, your prerogative to be dissatisfied. Since one or two full time staff are inadequate to meet your personally-laid-down timescales, how large a staff do you believe the MOD should apply to this task to satisfy your standards of 'decency'? For myself, I am content with the status quo.

[Seadog]

That is your opinion and is certainly not mine.

Regards

Norman

[Gareth Davies]

Norman

Have you written to the Parliamentary All Party War Graves Heritage Group to see if they can help?

http://www.wargravesheritage.org.uk/

And if you have, what did they say?

[Blackblue]

Norman has every right to be dissatisfied. He is a taxpayer and expects more like many others. Look at the way Australia and America investigate and treat their war dead. A far cry from the state of affairs here. If the figures are correct why do so many recoveries remain unburied and unresolved? The cost is not onerous in terms of the MoD budget and the technology exists to identify these men or exhaust all avenues of inquiry within a reasonable period. How many more staff should be allocated? As many as it takes.These men deserve better and should be a priority, not an afterthought.

[Seadog]

Gareth, the War Heritage Group have been contacted on the specific issue of the Beaucamps-Ligny 15 which is an excellent example of the way our fallen are presently treated by the MOD and have taken that issue “on board” and I will contact them again when the Shadow Defence Sercretary forwards a reply to my request as per the footnote in post 1. My main reason for creating this thread is due to the fact that we now know the annual number of recoveries from 2005 thanks to a written question submitted by the Shadow Defence Secretary which to my knowledge is the first time that such data has been put into the public domain. I sincerely believe that there are major problems with the way that we as a country are dealing with the fallen and that this should concern all of us being members of this forum devoted to the study of the Great War.

If I may add two further points, it will I hope be obvious from my post 12 that due to the total reluctance of both the MOD and CWGC to issue either a UK press release or to put the finding of our countrymen on the battlefields into the public domain, nobody will even know about the discoveries unless as in the Beaucamps-Ligny 15 case the French press cover the story and a member of this forum posted a link.

My second point is one that has been made before on the forum but to my mind is a very valid suggestion that the CWGC as the custodians of the found human remains should record the number still awaiting burial in their annual report for I see this as their responsibility and that there is no conceivable reason why this information should remain secret.

Regards

Norman

[Gareth Davies]

Norman

Where is your evidence to support your sincere belief that "that there are major problems with the way that we as a country are dealing with the fallen"? Major problems? I don't think so. They may be taking more time than you think they should, they may not be releasing information into the public domain that you think should have been released, but to say that as a country there are major problems with how we are dealing with our fallen is just simply untrue. The CWGC has graves/memorials to over 1 1/2 million people in some 2500 cemeteries in over 150 countries. The work they do, and the work of individuals, groups and other organisations, keep the memories of those who died alive.

[Seadog]

Gareth you seem to be mixing up the responsibilites of the CWGC and MOD. I really cannot add anything to that which I have already posted which may help you to understand the problem that most certainly exists.

Regards

Norman

[Gareth Davies]

Norman

I am not mixing up responsibilities. I am challenging your view that there are major problems with the way that we as a country are dealing with the fallen. There is not a major problem. There may be a problem in the way that the MOD is dealing with the remains of the fallen but this does not in any way support your sincere belief that there is a major problem with the way that we as a country are dealing with the fallen.

You seem to be mixing 'up we as a country' and the 'MOD'.

[Guest exuser1]

As previous stated their is a problem as a country and also how the MOD deal with as you say "Our Fallen " look at the way HMS Natal was desecrated in the 1970s by the MOD , and when I lived in Kent the news would have items where various wrecks were not deemed Wargraves until pressure had been brought to by relatives of the killed .

If an Americian fighting man is killed in the service of his country his remains are treated with due reverence ,such as remains found in Civil War ironclads or submersibles even to the point of being interred under the Stars and Bars ! Remains from the Revolutionary War are also treated with respect , in the past few years remains of soldiers have been deposited in card board boxes ,put on the history Channel and then forgotten ,not long ago a time frame was deemed if a solider had died at a certain date he was not the responsibility of either HM Goverment or MOD ,now CWWG will manage sites in SA and look after 1899/1900 graves but not 1879 .

I photographed remains of British soldiers killed in 1855 and informed War Graves of their location I knew what the answer would be but to prove to myself contacted them even to ask any pointers who should I contact ? They could not even be bothered just the "computer says no "

[Gareth Davies]

Hesmond,

I said 'our fallen' not 'Our Fallen'.

Where is the evidence that there 'is a problem as a country'? There is evidence that the MOD are slower than you and seadog would like but there is no evidence that there 'is a problem as a county', let alone 'that there are major problems with the way that we as a country are dealing with the fallen'.

[healdav]

I would just point out that DNA is not an address, it is something that can be compared with something else.

No point in trying to get DNA samples from a skeleton if you have nothing that it can be compared with i.e. if you suspect it is soldier X and you know his family then you can compare his DNA with that of the family. If you don't know who he is, and have no family DNA to compare then it's hopeless.

[Guest exuser1]

So not a problem British soldiers bones scattered around the Crimea ? No one takes ownership ? I would expect that a year to make up your mind as what to do with the remains of a British soldier is time enough ,3 years on and no movement brings up images of Yes Minster! and people not in the correct job spending their time at a desk waiting for the tea trolley ?

[Steven Broomfield]

Out of interest, Hesmond, how did you know the bones you found were those of British soldiers? Presumably there must be French, Russian, Sardinian and all other sorts of bones there.

For myself, I suspect this is an issue which exercises some people an awful lot, and an awful lot of people not at all. Short of a national data base of everyone's DNA I fail to se how we are ever going to identify the huge majority of bodoes recovered from anywhere, and if, by chance, a body were related to me I suppose I'd be interested, but I am not interested enough to want to go on a data base as part of a trawl to see.

Bottom line, though, one would assume it costs more to keep the bodies in store than to bury them, why not just bury them with an "Unknown" marker? After all, no-one's known for 90 years,so no-one's the worse off.