Still Unburied 2014

[Guest exuser1]

Steven these particular remains were found with in the Sand Bag Battery at Inkerman ,also scattered with in these bones were British brass webbing buckles and the odd button , we uncovered a separate dump in the ravine which included various arm and leg bones and some Russian regimental buttons , out in Balaklava Valley the area along the main road following the line of gun positions were discarded WW2 ammo and debris with the odd toe and finger bone but you would assume are WW2 German there is a serious issue with grave robbers in the Crimea ,in fact when the film crew of Sharp in the 1990s found some German remains they were buried in secret as the locals would dig him up every day !

At the Alma at British solider was uncovered in the Grand Battery a few years ago during a excavation complete with equipment this dig was carried out by the local university ,his remains were buried in Sevastopol .

In 1998 when visiting the site of the hospital at Balaklava harbour on the escarpment below the hospital many bones were breaking the surface and this was a British Hospital just by the Geonese Tower .

During WW2 the German commander in the Crimea in his account published after the war describes the Russian artillery shelling the main British cemetery in the Crimea he states human remains still coverd in red rags were being thrown around during the bombardment .During the 150th I visited the site of the Redan a Council work party had installed a electrical cable along the site of the trench where hundreds of British troops had been slaughtered when Sevestopl fell , in the spoil heap were again brass buckles of British manufacture and splintered bones , on returning to the UK no one seemed bothered and I am not the only person to come up against this in the Crimea .

[Blackblue]

I would just point out that DNA is not an address, it is something that can be compared with something else.

No point in trying to get DNA samples from a skeleton if you have nothing that it can be compared with i.e. if you suspect it is soldier X and you know his family then you can compare his DNA with that of the family. If you don't know who he is, and have no family DNA to compare then it's hopeless.

On the contrary. Advances in technology and the advent of DNA are beginning to make it simple ‘due diligence’ to extract DNA from recovered remains. Are there that many recoveries that it is too expensive to undertake DNA sampling? I think not. If there is the remotest chance of identification do the MoD and British Government not owe it to these men to exhaust every avenue? What if men or relatives are later identified through research and publicity? If they extract DNA from relevant recoveries (a relatively inexpensive process) then at least there remains a chance…instead of disposing of remains in a manner that may render this impossible.

Norman’s comments are underpinned by honorable motives and there are clear inroads to be made through raising awareness. Compared to some other countries the UK’s approach does appear questionable and the time frames considerably stretched leading to the obvious perception that all that could be done, is not. This work should be the last place ‘finite’ resources are taken from and I don’t subscribe to the argument that it comes down to furthering these cases vs equipping troops in combat. That's rot. I agree that someone somewhere in MoD or the British Government seemingly doesn’t care enough.

What’s the harm in Norman voicing his obviously passionate opinion and being a ‘one man judge and jury’? Those who don’t agree are doing NO different, simply have an opposing viewpoint. He is more than entitled to perceive it as a major problem. Compared to America and Australia it is. By extension the MoD is a part of ‘your country’. It deals with these cases on behalf of the British Government….and the British people. It is apparent they can do better.

[NigelS]

Bottom line, though, one would assume it costs more to keep the bodies in store than to bury them, why not just bury them with an "Unknown" marker? After all, no-one's known for 90 years,so no-one's the worse off.

I may be wrong on this, but with those found at Fromelles, wasn't DNA sampling carried out on all the remains recovered (& presumably the results - if viable - stored in case possible relatives/descendants are identified at some future date), with those that remained unidentified so far buried as unknowns? If this is the case, I can't see why this isn't the norm for all recent and future discoveries, with burials taking place in a relatively short time scale after discovery (ie months rather than years) once all the information it's possible to gather has been fully recorded. If a body is subsequently identified getting the name put on a headstone isn't a big issue, nor would be the timescale of getting it done. IMO having remains kept in storage for a long time rather than properly buried - even if as unknowns - is disrespectful to their memory and not something I'd want for myself or an ancestor.

NigelS

[Seadog]

Nigel your suggestion would seem a very viable way of moving forward with regard to the possible identification of the fallen. However I believe that if this was adopted then sadly that would just give the MOD another excuse to do nothing and therefore the best way of bringing some sense to this situation would be to resource the responsible department properly and/or contract out the ID process to one of the specialized groups who have a proven track record in this field. I do however agree that a DNA sample should be taken were possible from the human remains in the event that further information comes to light in the future.

It was sad to read the quote from the member in your post and I cannot believe that the majority of people would not support all the action possible in order that our fallen have the chance of being identified and given a named burial. Take the case of the Beaucamps-Ligny 15 where research by a respected member of this forum has indicated that there are a possible number of matches to the fallen giving an almost 2:1 possibility of identification, do we really believe that no such action should be taken and these men buried as unknown and this when there are direct descendants still living. I know what my answer will be.

Regards

Norman

[Steven Broomfield]

I stick to what I said - they've been dead for 90+ years and I suspect very, very few people living today know (or, dare I say, care) whether they are Great Uncle bert or not.

I'd give them a decent burial and go for Nigel's suggestion, but I do not foresee a situation where a DNA database is kept with the whole world's DNA on it. I, for one, would never willingly comply with any Government request for that.

[Seadog]

A slight misunderstanding, I did not advocate a DNA database for the whole world if fact I have not even mentioned that. Let me try to clarify my remark, I merely suggest that where possible and when no definite identification is immediately obvious then the taking and storing of a DNA specimen may be of great value should at some future time additional evidence come to light which may result in the identification of our dead. Your assumption that nobody cares is no doubt backed-up with evidence so perhaps you will post that for us to read. Should you reply as I suspect you will that where is my evidence to the contrary may I suggest you read the posts from our fellow member and friend LARRETT in the Beaucamps-Ligny thread. Perhaps in addition as you keep quoting 90+ years as being a reason why "nobody cares" you will inform us of which historical time-period we should "care" about our newly discovered war dead

Regards

Norman

[Blackblue]

Steven is right. Not enough people (including some of the decision makers) care...what a very very sad state of affairs. I think the suggestion of the whole world DNA database is a bit dramatic mate.....but I bet you a pound it happens one day.

[healdav]

DNA does not give date of birth, address and telephone number of descendants. It gives a chance of comparing one line of dashes with another line of dashes. If the two match, then Bingo.

Keep DNA by all means so that perhaps one day someone somewhere will find themselves on a DNA database and gets a match with one of them.

For the US army, Australians, etc the problem is not too great; there are not that many unknowns. I know the USA go to great lengths to identify there Vietnam unknowns, but the whole lot put together would not match up to just the British unknowns at Tyne Cot.

And, come to think of it, I wonder whether the men concerned would rather that the MOD's money was spent on going some way towards identifying them or on weapons for today's army? My money is on the latter.

[Seadog]

Perhaps it is worth restating the fact that in the UK £50 million is allocated to the 2014 commemorations so it would appear that the cash is out there somewhere plus as regards to your last sentence it is not an either/or for the differential in the costs of the alternatives you quote are so marked as to be inconsequential as a reason to choose between the two. I would be very interested in reading the views of members of this Great War forum with regard to just what is an acceptable time-period before which we as a nation make no attempt to identify our war dead.

Regards

Norman

[auchonvillerssomme]

Norman I would suggest that there is no attempt to identify remains apart from the obvious, the soldiers name etc being found with the remains but even then it wouldn't be 100%. They may take DNA where viable but what do they compare it with, there is no database available to them. So the only reason for the length of time between finding and burying is admin and manpower.

I think what gets up a few noses is the forensic effort that went into the Fromelles remains compared to those found where there is no documentary fee or publicity.

[Blackblue]

Granted there are a lot of British missing but there are NOT so many recoveries of suspected British personnel that it makes the cost of DNA extraction prohibitive. As I said before...I hardly think some effort spent on publicizing cases and a few hundred pounds here and there for DNA extraction would see 3 Para armed with .303s in Afghanistan.

[Seadog]

Post 35, so your opinion would apply to the Beaucamps-Ligny 15 as well?, I ask these questions to get some idea what those on this forum who obviously have an interest in the Great War think about the current situation which I remind members has resulted in the possible number of unburied British human remains standing at 70 (inc BL-15 & Comines 6) and is to be confirmed. Of course whatever opinions are expressed here will have no impact on my own and others efforts to obtain the proper treatment of our dead. I disagree with your contention that the Fromelles results “got up a few noses” rather it demonstrated just what the combination of research and DNA profiling could and did achieve to remarkable effect in that case.

Regards

Norman

[auchonvillerssomme]

A while back contacted my own MP about the subject, and received no useful response.

You might disagree with my contention about the getting up noses, but first hand discussions I have had with individuals around dinner tables indicates that it does irritate people, including some very serious researchers.

Yes it does demonstrate what proper forensic archaeology and good publicity can do, unfortunately I don't believe the UK government is the least bit interested.

[Old Tom]

For what it is worth, I agree with Steven.

Old Tom

[Seadog]

Very interesting, tell me do you feel the same about WW2 remains for the estimated 70 sets awaiting whatever investigation the MOD has in store for them followed by interment could of course contain some from WW2 as no distinction is made between the two wars or indeed any other conflict where our dead have been found.

Regards

Norman

[Gareth Davies]

Norman

What request have you put to the MOD and what was their response? I note via the Government Gateway website (https://www.gov.uk/pensions-and-compensation-for-veterans#joint-casualty-and-compassionate-centre-jccc) that:

"A small team answers enquires relating to individual military fatalities outside the recent past and co-ordinates investigations following the discovery of human remains of British service personnel killed in the First and Second World Wars,. This fascinating work involves attempts to identify the casualty and trace their next of kin or descendants. In accordance with the policy in force at the time of death, the MoD does not repatriate the bodies of those who died prior to the mid 1960’s but will arrange an appropriate interment or military funeral in the country concerned and where identities can be established will fund two close relatives to attend the service.

The Commemorations Team will also;

Advise the CWGC on the validity of claims from members of the public suggesting identities for bodies buried as “Unknown Soldiers, Sailors or Airmen”. Identities will only be confirmed and the headstone on the grave changed where the identity can be established using “clear and convincing” evidence which can be validated by the MoD."

What enquiries have you made?

[Seadog]

Gareth, Interesting but in my opinion yet more “waffle” from the MOD. Regarding "what enquires have I made" well I have made a Freedom of Information request requesting the number of individual human remains deemed to be British found on the battlefields over the last few years but predictably with a complete silence from the MOD sadly this will be the result with all enquires. Fine words then that you have posted from the web site but in the real world not supported by action. The only information that I have managed to get was through the work of the Shadow Secretary of Defence Jim Murphy MP who obtained written answers to various questions in Parliament and that is where the data regarding the number of “finds” comes from hopefully to be followed by the number of individual remains still awaiting burial after presumably investigation and release of the remains to the CWGC.

Perhaps the best way to illustrate the current state of affairs is by reference to the BL-15, found in November 2009, information supplied to the MOD by the Regimental Association 2010, followed by research data as to possible identities formulated by a GWF member. Now in the Fourth year of deliberation by the MOD as to whether DNA profiling will be used in the case. As for the possible remaining 50+ outstanding cases when they will be finalized is anyone’s guess. I reiterate that the MOD do not issue any form of news release when the fallen are found so the public are completely in the dark as regards the discoveries. The quote you make about the “Commemoration Team” appears to apply only to those already buried as unknown and is not relevant in the case of newly found human remains.

Regards

Norman

[Stoppage Drill]

well I have made a Freedom of Information request requesting the number of individual human remains deemed to be British found on the battlefields over the last few years but predictably with a complete silence from the MOD sadly this will be the result with all enquires.

MoD publish all FoI enquiries, and replies. I have personal experience of more than one occasion (relating to fatal incidents in the early 1960's and late 1970's).

There is a legal obligation to respond to, and answer FoI enquiries, though exemptions exist which allow for a "no comment" response. The broadest of these is a refusal to answer questions relating to Special Forces, and perhaps the second most common is an exemption from the obligation to reply where they can show that the cost of compiling a reply would be too excessive.In the case of my 1963 enquiry I was simply referred to National Archives,as the relevant file was with them, though for later incidents I received copies of Board of Inquiry proceedings, with names expunged.

"Complete silence from the MoD . . . . this will be the result with all enquires (sic) " seems hard to credit.

[Seadog]

Well my experience is fact and I am sure you would not be suggesting otherwise. Perhaps you would care to submit an FOI requesting the number of British human remains found on the battlefields that still await burial, who knows you may get a response.

Norman

[peterhogg]

I am not trying to be clever or sarcastic when I ask this question. What is it that is currently keeping this MOD staff of one or two busy such that these remains described above are left on the back-burner? I mean, what do they do on a daily basis such that they have this sort of back-log?

[Seadog]

From the link in post 41:

This seems to indicate that a small number of people are involved with the attempted ID of the fallen and from this I make the assumption that this is their only responsibility though whether this is the case remains unclear.

"A small team answers enquires relating to individual military fatalities outside the recent past and co-ordinates investigations following the discovery of human remains of British service personnel killed in the First and Second World Wars,. This fascinating work involves attempts to identify the casualty and trace their next of kin or descendants. In accordance with the policy in force at the time of death, the MoD does not repatriate the bodies of those who died prior to the mid 1960’s but will arrange an appropriate interment or military funeral in the country concerned and where identities can be established will fund two close relatives to attend the service".

I am also not clear as to exactly how they pursue their work considering that to the best of my knowledge the human remains are stored with the CWGC in France. The CWGC do produce a report of the finds giving as much detail as possible so I suppose there is no requirement for the "small team" to see the actual remains. If this is the case it does beggar the question of just what is taking so long as sadly I expect that the majority of the finds could be released to the CWGC for proper burial very quickly as there is insufficient evidence to enable identification to be made.

Regards

Norman

[peterhogg]

Thanks. Hmmmm

[Seadog]

No problem Connor but please be aware that this is my assumption of how the system works in practice and in no way am I trying to lay the blame for what appears to be the quite ludicrous time delay between find and eventual burial at the door of the individuals concerned.

Norman

[PBI]

This is what will happen based on previous cases.

The human remains will be discovered

The CWGC will inform the MOD in the case of the body/remains being British

The MOD will not issue any press release regarding the find

The CWGC will not issue any press release as they insist this is the responsibility of the

MOD

Nothing will be heard of the find for at least 3 years and possibly longer

Will DNA be used if the remains and circumstances are favourable, very unlikely as DNA has not been used as yet by the MOD

After the time period of 3-4 years the remains will ne released by the MOD and buried by

the CWGC as “Known unto God”

The CWGC will post brief details of the burial on their web site

This will be deleted following the burial

End

If you are happy with this state of affairs then so be it.

Norman

Albeit a very Secretive Burial which wont attract any Media or Public attention,and of course in these Hard Times will save the MOD heaps of Money.

[Seadog]

This is the response received by Lord Faulkner from Lord Astor regarding the BL-15 the last paragraph of which appears to also make reference to the present number of British human remains found on the battlefield and now in the care of the CWGC. If this is the case and Lord Faulkner has asked for clarification, then in my view and based of the evidence available the MOD have and without informing interested parities, made a substantial change to the way that our discovered dead are treated.

Given the total absence of any formal interments of the fallen over the last two years it would be fair to assume that the MOD are doing nothing to attempt identification of the fallen and just storing them up and waiting for a convenient time when they can all be disposed of as the letter states “Known Unto God”, because the number of such cases still outstanding could number over 50 and will of course increase year on year so the chances of the MOD attempting any form of investigation after burial is in my opinion remote to say the least.

This new policy if in fact this it what it is will explain the total lack of transparency and complete failure of the MOD to issue any form of press releases regarding the discovery of our fallen countrymen. I am waiting a further response from Lord Faulkner which I hope will clarify the position.

Norman