Mystery Band

[FROGSMILE]

The Corporation of London is very good for keeping records and I am sure that they will have will some record of the Lord’ Mayor’s Recruiting Band. This morning I telephoned to the Guildhall Reference Library and was told that the Lord Mayor’s records are kept at the London Metropolitan Archives but they are closed at the moment for stocktaking (reopens 19^th November). The library say they may have some secondary sources there and I will go and go and do some research one day this week. I was also told to contact the Mansion House as they may have something there.

Kathy

It will be interesting to learn more about the band and its formation. As High Wood says above, the link I posted seems to imply that several recruiting bands were formed at that time, which given that it was London and the centre of Empire does not surprise me. The mention of both Frederick Lister Kettlewell and another bandmaster, Mr Fleet, suggests that either they were separate bands, or that one bandmaster eventually handed over to the other.

There is no doubt in my mind that the man in the blue uniform is a warrant officer/sergeant major of the central recruiting staff and perhaps Sergeant Major Ostler, who you mentioned. I enclose a coloured image of the full dress uniform of recruiting staff at that time and you can see the scarlet collar with its gold lace and the edge of the scalloped cuffs, as well as the GvR cypher cap badge. For reference I enclose another such recruiter from between the wars and you will see the undress blue patrol uniform, as full dress had been abolished, but the same cap badge.

Graham and Joe had been right to be cautious and it now seems that the band was only quasi military, with a number of ex Army veterans, whose medal ribbons you can see in the larger photo that you posted, but also a number of perhaps purely civilian musicians to make up the numbers. As they would have been paid, I imagine that it was a nice little earner at that time.

I hope we can learn more about the band's official status and I am wondering if they were adopted in any way by the City of London Territorial Force Association, as they have some items of War Department equipment and the bandmaster, if retired (he may have been on long service extension or attachment) would have needed permission to wear his badges of rank. His medal appears to be the Long Service and Good Conduct medal, which at that time had a plain maroon ribbon, without the later white edges that were added to avoid confusion with the VC when the ribbon alone was worn.

The band's cap badge appears to be the generic type that I mentioned earlier that was star shaped, inset with a lyre and surmounted by a crown. These badges could be purchased from any insignia supplier and were often used by town bands and such like. A similar badge was later used by the Royal British Legion bands.

As a footnote, it seems to me very likely that the band managed to obtain some forage caps with red and white dicing from the Scots Guards, perhaps whilst the latter were on public duties.

[Muerrisch]

I think the SG cap bands are red white, and green where the reds cross?

City of London Police I think are just red white.

Not my forte, headdress, as has become evident over the years.

This thread has been a marvellous example of how the GWF works. Fascinating.

[Graham Stewart]

Graham and Joe had been right to be cautious and it now seems that the band was only quasi military, with a number of ex Army veterans, whose medal ribbons you can see in the larger photo that you posted, but also a number of perhaps purely civilian musicians to make up the numbers. As they would have been paid, I imagine that it was a nice little earner at that time.

Yaah - you old Nanny Goat - told you so :lol: . Who's the man then ??? Many thanks to Joe and especially High Wood for getting to the bottom of this mystery band

[Muerrisch]

Have a care Graham, remember you read it here too:

This has to be irregular unit at best, and 1915 or later, is best I can do.

Thats evened the score for the Royal Goats.

Yahboo and sucks

.

[Graham Stewart]

They say "you should never kick a man when he's down", being a Geordie though I always follow up with one to the b*llocks when he's in that position . Will be doing a victory lap around me villa now

[gordon92]

I think the SG cap bands are red white, and green where the reds cross?

City of London Police I think are just red white.

Not my forte, headdress, as has become evident over the years.

This thread has been a marvellous example of how the GWF works. Fascinating.

This is correct. Scots Guards dicing is red-blue-white in three rows. Red and white on the top and bottom row, blue and red on the middle row. The caps in the original photo have only two rows of dicing in white and possibly red (?).

[Muerrisch]

They say "you should never kick a man when he's down", being a Geordie though I always follow up with one to the b*llocks when he's in that position . Will be doing a victory lap around me villa now

Is this same as BLX?

This is correct. Scots Guards dicing is red-blue-white in three rows. Red and white on the top and bottom row, blue and red on the middle row. The caps in the original photo have only two rows of dicing in white and possibly red (?).

For green read blue, should have known better. Hats, as I said, are not me.

[FROGSMILE]

I think the SG cap bands are red white, and green where the reds cross?

City of London Police I think are just red white.

Not my forte, headdress, as has become evident over the years.

This thread has been a marvellous example of how the GWF works. Fascinating.

Yes, with dark blue intermediate chequering, as per the enclosed image, which shows the cap I had thought the bandmaster might have been wearing.

Red and white chequering was not adopted by the City of London police until 1974 and was intended as a version of the so-called 'sillitoe tartan', but in the City of London historical colours of red and white (presumably this is why the same colours were adopted by the Lord Mayor's recruiting band in 1915).

[FROGSMILE]

Yaah - you old Nanny Goat - told you so . Who's the man then ??? Many thanks to Joe and especially High Wood for getting to the bottom of this mystery band

Yes you (and Joe) were right to be cautious Graham, I fear the presence of the Army recruiter and the 'old soldier' bandmaster led me up the garden path somewhat. That said, there is more to learn about these official recruiting bands methinks.

P.S. and the Royal Goats is the 'preferred' epiphet if you don't mind, unlike those NF Johnny come latelies.

[Graham Stewart]

What I enjoy here on the GWF is that we can discuss subjects at great length and come to successful conclusions, without things getting heated and still end up taking the 'mick' out of our mates - surely a great Forum.

Frogsmile - 'Royal' Goats spelled 'N-A-N-N-Y' G-O-A-T. Think you'll find the NF were Johnny come 'Fifth' - a lot better than '23rd'. Don't you just love the smell of victory.

[FROGSMILE]

Frogsmile - 'Royal' Goats spelled 'N-A-N-N-Y' G-O-A-T. Think you'll find the NF were Johnny come 'Fifth' - a lot better than '23rd'. Don't you just love the smell of victory.

Yes indeed old friend....but 1836 makes them johnny come latelies as 'Fusiliers' methinks....and it is surely as fusiliers that the honorific truly lies! A bit different to 1714.....as in over a hundred years different. Not to mention the head start on being Royalled of course. I rest my case

[Muerrisch]

He's right Graham.

[KathyTaylor]

I can add a bit more to the puzzle: The Lord Mayor of London in 1914-15 was Colonel SIR CHARLES JOHNSTON, He was the Founder, President, and Hon. Commandant of The National Guard, and Hon. Regimental Commandant, C.L.N.G., and Hon. Commandant of 5th Battalion, C.L.V.R. (I guess the CL means City of London)

I found this information in on online book ‘The National Guard In The Great War’ by A. E. Manning Foster http://archive.org/stream/nationalguarding00fost/nationalguarding00fost_djvu.txt

Will let you know if I find anything tomorrow at the Guildhall Library.

Kathy

[drummer]

It is fascinating (and extremely informative as well) to me to follow a thread where Grumpy, Joe, Graham, Frogsmile et al. hammer out a consensus when presented with a "mystery" photo like this one.

[Guest]

It is fascinating (and extremely informative as well) to me to follow a thread where Grumpy, Joe, Graham, Frogsmile et al. hammer out a consensus when presented with a "mystery" photo like this one.

Absolutely! Great stuff.

Do I get any points for mentioning Scots Guards first, or was that so obvious as to not need mentioning?

Mike

[Muerrisch]

You can have mine: I have enough for my free set of wine glasses.

[Guest]

You can have mine: I have enough for my free set of wine glasses.

Much appreciated.

Mike

[FROGSMILE]

Absolutely! Great stuff.

Do I get any points for mentioning Scots Guards first, or was that so obvious as to not need mentioning?

Mike

I still feel that there might be a connection with the Scots Guards and this is reinforced a little by that regiment's mention (they were clearly on public duties) in several places in the e-book link posted by Kathy above. It might be that diced hat bands were obtained from the Scots Guards QM and then folded and stitched to omit the intermediate blue/red line of dicing and leave just two rows of red and white - the City of London colours. It would be typical of the kind of thing done to dress up a drab khaki uniform to make it more fit for the pomp and circumstance of a ceremonial band.

Incidentally the enlarged collar badges, shown by forum member High Wood, look as if they might be similar to those of the City of London Yeomanry, namely a variation of the City of London coat of arms within a laurel wreath. Something similar was soon after adopted by the City of London Volunteer Regiment/Corps, whose badge is also enclosed.

You might also be interested in a relevant recruiting poster from that period, which specifically mentions 'Bands'.

[KathyTaylor]

Whilst at the Guildhall Reference library yesterday I was unable to locate any material relating directly to the Lord Mayor’s Recruiting Bands but I did look at:

· Volumes 1 & 2 of the National Guard newsletter 1915-1917

· The National Guard In The Great War 1914 - 1918 By A. E. Manning Foster 1920 (I posted a link to an E-version)

There were quite a lot of references to the Regimental Bands of the National Guard, which seem to be:

· City of London National Guard Military Band – Bandmaster A Parsons – 38 to 40 instrumentalists

· City of London National Guard Bugle & Drum Band – Bandmaster, Hon. Platoon Commander Walter E Budd – 40 members

There was a photograph of the CLNG Military Band which I have attached. You will see the uniform is very different from my photo which we believe is one of the Recruiting Bands.

The following article does however mention both the CLNG Bands as well as the Lord Mayor’s Recruiting Bands which I would say indicates that they are independent of each other:

National Guard newsletter Vol:1 No.4 July - Page 108:

"A well merited tribute was paid by the Lord Mayor and Commandant to the work of the Executive Committee and especially Platoon Commander J Thomson Murray in organising and arranging the concert (June 1915). The idea of the concert was, I understand, due to Mr Murray, and he has put in a lot of hard work over it, and it is to him that its success is largely due. It will be a satisfaction to you all that the concert has realised a sum of £165 in aid of the Lord Mayor’s Recruiting Bands – a patriotic object which deserves all the support it can get from the public. We who now have our own band are in a position to realise how much martial music means in the way of inspiring and helping us, and I think we all ought, as an act of gratitude to the Lord Mayor for all he has done for us, to do in return our little bit to see that this enterprise of his does not fail. The Recruiting Bands need financial support. I need not say any more".

When the LMA re-opens next week I will find some time to get up there and look for Corporation of London Minutes relating to the Recruiting Bands.

Kathy

[KathyTaylor]

Here is another photo of the City of London National Guard Band which shows the uniform in more detail

[Graham Stewart]

Kathy - the City of London National Guard was affiliated to the Central Association of Volunteer Training Corps, the equivalent of the 'Home Guard', however it wasn't recognised by the War Office until mid-1916. As such they weren't allowed to wear khaki unifoms and so wore grey/green uniforms hence the unusual light colour. If you look at the large group photo, you can just make out that the two officers seated are wearing their red VTC armbands on their left arms.

[FROGSMILE]

Great stuff Kathy and I believe you are moving closer to a eureka moment, as it seems likely that the corporation minutes will provide us with good information. I agree with Graham that the light grey green uniforms of the band that you have most recently posted is a very different shade from what appears to be a darker khaki drab of the recruiting band in your OP.

Note also the clearly close relationship between the recruiting band and the warrant officer from the central recruiting staff. This was a very different concept, in terms of intent, to the 'old boys' of the VTC and National Guard.

[KathyTaylor]

As I mentioned before I am not a military historian, local (London Borough of Newham) history is more my thing but I must admit that I am very interested in what was happening in the borough during both the wars and I am actually finding this story of the City of London National Guard really fascinating.

It would seem that the Lord Mayor, a Colonel (retired) was having a ‘jolly-up’ on Boxing Day 1915 with some old army chums and devised a ‘cunning plan’ to raise group of men to defend London, as was traditionally done centuries ago by previous Lord Mayor’s of London. Members had to be outside the age range of army enlistment and had to pay a guinea to join.

I laughed when I read Graham’s comment that the CLNG wasn’t recognised by the War Office until mid-1916. Although they didn’t have War Office approval they must have had friends in very high places, as on the 20^th March and by command of the King, the CLNG was allowed to march through the grounds of Buckingham Palace. The King later told the Lord Mayor, the Commandant, that he was satisfied with the appearance and marching of the men.

I will let you know what I find out when I get to the LMA.

Kathy

[KathyTaylor]

I bought this ‘Who Forbids The Bands’ cartoon on Ebay last night. The quote at the bottom was by Rudyard Kipling at the Mansion House meeting of the Recruiting Bands Committee.

Kathy

[FROGSMILE]

Music of War by Rudyard Kipling

The following speech was delivered by Mr. Kipling on Jan. 27, 1915, at a meeting in London promoted by the Recruiting Bands Committee, and held with the object of raising bands in the London district as an aid to recruiting.

The most useful thing that a civilian can do in these busy days is to speak as little as possible, and if he feels moved to write, to confine his efforts to his check book. [Laughter.] But this is an exception to that very sound rule. We do not know the present strength of the new armies. Even if we did it would not be necessary to make it public. But we may assume that there are several battalions in Great Britain which were not in existence at the end of last July, and some of them are in London. Nor is it any part of our national policy to explain how far these battalions are prepared for the work which is ahead of them. They were born quite rightly in silence. But that is no reason why they should continue to walk in silence for the rest of their lives. [Cheers.]

Unfortunately up to the present most of them have been obliged to walk in silence or to no better accompaniment than whistles and concertinas and other meritorious but inadequate instruments of music with which they have provided themselves. In the beginning this did not matter so much. More urgent needs had to be met; but now that the new armies are what they are, we who cannot assist them by joining their ranks owe it to them to provide them with more worthy music for their help, their gratification, and their honor. [Cheers.]

I am not a musician, so if I speak as a barbarian I must ask you and several gentlemen on the platform here to forgive me. From the lowest point of view a few drums and fifes in the battalion mean at least five extra miles in a route march, quite apart from the fact that they can swing a battalion back to quarters happy and composed in its mind, no matter how wet or tired its body may be. Even when there is no route marching, the mere come and go, the roll and flourishing of drums and fifes around the barracks is as warming and cheering as the sight of a fire in a room. A band, not necessarily a full band, but a band of a dozen brasses and wood-winds, is immensely valuable in the district where men are billeted. It revives memories, it quickens association, it opens and unites the hearts of men more surely than any other appeal can, and in this respect it aids recruiting perhaps more than any other agency. I wonder whether I should say this—the tune that it employs and the words that go with that tune are sometimes very remote from heroism or devotion, but the magic and the compelling power is in them, and it makes men's souls realize certain truths that their minds might doubt.

Further, no one, not even the Adjutant, can say for certain where the soul of the battalion lives, but the expression of that soul is most often found in the band. [Cheers.] It stands to reason that 1,200 men whose lives are pledged to each other must have some common means of expression, some common means of conveying their moods and their thoughts to themselves and their world. The band feels the moods and interprets the thoughts. A wise and sympathetic bandmaster—and the masters that I have met have been that—can lift a battalion out of depression, cheer it in sickness, and steady and recall it to itself in times of almost unendurable stress. [Cheers.] You may remember a beautiful poem by Sir Henry Newbolt, in which he describes how a squadron of weary big dragoons were led to renewed effort by the strains of a penny whistle and a child's drum taken from a toyshop in a wrecked French town. I remember in India, in a cholera camp, where the men were suffering very badly, the band of the Tenth Lincolns started a regimental sing-song and went on with that queer, defiant tune, "The Lincolnshire Poacher." It was their regimental march that the men had heard a thousand times. There was nothing in it—nothing except all England, all the East Coast, all the fun and daring and horse play of young men bucketing about big pastures in the moonlight. But as it was given, very softly at that bad time in that terrible camp of death, it was the one thing in the world that could have restored, as it did restore, shaken men back to their pride, humor, and self-control. [Cheers.] This may be an extreme instance, but it is not an exceptional one. Any man who has had anything to do with the service will tell you that the battalion is better for music at every turn, happier, more easily handled, with greater zest in its daily routine, if that routine is sweetened with melody and rhythm—melody for the mind and rhythm for the body.

Our new armies have been badly served in this essential. Of all the admirable qualities which they have shown none is more wonderful than the spirit which has carried them through the laborious and distasteful groundwork of their calling without one note of music, except that which the same indomitable spirit provided out of their own heads. We have all seen them marching through the country, through the streets of London, in absolute silence and the crowds through which they passed as silent as themselves for the lack of the one medium that could convey and glorify the thoughts that are in us all today.

We are a tongue-tied brood at the best. The bands can declare on our behalf without shame and without shyness something of what we all feel and help us to reach a hand toward the men who have risen up to save us. In the beginning the more urgent requirements of the new armies overrode all other considerations. Now we can get to work on some other essentials. The War Office has authorized the formation of bands for some of the London battalions, and we may hope presently to see the permission extended throughout Great Britain. We must not, however, cherish unbridled musical ambitions, because a full band means more than forty pieces, and on that establishment we should even now require a rather large number of men; but I think it might be possible to provide drums and fifes for every battalion, full bands at the depots, and a proportion of battalion bands on half, or even one-third, establishments.

But this is not a matter to be settled by laymen; it must be discussed seriously between bandmasters and musicians—present, past, and dug up. [Laughter.] They may be trusted to give their services with enthusiasm. We have had many proofs in the last six months that people only want to know what the new army needs, and it will be gladly and cheerfully given. The army needs music, its own music, for, more than in any other calling, soldiers do not live by bread alone. From time immemorial the man who offers his life for his land has been compassed at every turn of his service with elaborate ceremonial and observance, of which music is no small part, all carefully designed to support and uphold him. It is not seemly and it is not expedient that any portion of that ritual should be slurred or omitted now. [Cheers.]