Mystery Band

[FROGSMILE]

FS,

The smae way I see bands today wearing military rank for members--its especially common in Pipe Bands and non school bands.

Joe Sweeney

Massive difference today Joe, we are not talking about a simple and omnipresent sergeant's badge, what is shown is a relatively recently introduced bandmaster's badge of rank (as mentioned by Grumpy) and it was illegal then to wear a uniform of the Crown without entitlement, a statute that was taken seriously at that time with prosecutions actually carried out.

[Guest]

I know very little about dress, but this Guardsman wears a diced peak cap Click

Mike

[FROGSMILE]

Thought this may help by way of comparison - an authenticated VTC band and one, incidentally, I've never been able to trace.

Note: Drums not decorated and gorget patches.

Tim

As Graham says, a different uniform altogether, in colour, cut and material. Also the gorgets are different and small shoulder wings as opposed to the OPs shoulder cords of a pattern common from early 02 SD uniforms. The pointed pocket flaps on the OPs photo were common on the early 4 pocketed SD of the latter end of the Boer War (see Victorian Wars Forum). Such uniforms had to be used up and early TF bands would seem a likely place for them to have been utilised.

It seems to me that the critical aspect here is date - Is it 1910-11 or 1915-16? I believe it to be the former, for the reasons already stated.

[tn.drummond]

Disproving this may help.

I still think the central Sergeant is Norfolk Yeomanry - cap badge , piping and blues. Can't explain cuffs- but have seen them on Scottish Horse.

[tn.drummond]

As Graham says, a different uniform altogether, in colour, cut and material. Also the gorgets are different and small shoulder wings as opposed to the OPs shoulder cords of a pattern common from early 02 SD uniforms. The pointed pocket flaps on the OPs photo were common on the early 4 pocketed SD of the latter end of the Boer War (see Victorian Wars Forum). Such uniforms had to be used up and early TF bands would seem a likely place for them to have been utilised.

It seems to me that the critical aspect here is date - Is it 1910-11 or 1915-16? I believe it to be the former, for the reasons already stated.

As I said - posting was purely for comparison.

[Graham Stewart]

Just to add to what I've already said about not being VTC/Volunteer Force post-1916 - a photo from my collection of 'Drummer Hobbs', unknown battalion of the London Volunteer Regiment, complete with GS capbadge. This one of the reasons I'm eliminating these units.

Now - and this could be a spanner in the works - there are only two quasi military units that I can think of which would be daring enough to wear 'military' dress prior to the War - the first would be National Reservists, who officially weren't uniformed, but I do know two Counties that defied the ban on military uniform - one of which was Westminster National Reserve.

The second and probably daftest - a British mainland 'UVF' band. Sounds daft I know, but I do know certain areas of the country, you did have strong Irish communities which followed the situation in Ireland at the time, and some may have had bands, but I have to admit I don't know if such bands were allowed to flourish in London.

[FROGSMILE]

The man on left as you look at it wears BANDMASTER badge lower cuff ....... it was running much earlier than the small version upper arm for those junior.

But he also wears the old bandmaster shoulder cords, used before bandmaster badge, an anomaly: one thing or t'other!

But his pockets are without pleats and perhaps a version of the economy 1914/15 issue ?

This has to be irregular unit at best, and 1915 or later, is best I can do.

Clearly we have been shown a crop ......... might we see more please?

Wearing both 'old' shoulder cords and the 'new' cuff badge would be typical of the kind of confusion common with new clothing regulations, especially within an auxiliary forces unit.

The unpleated pockets were common on the final pattern of 1899 SD (see VWF).

There is a danger of assuming that the photo was definitely taken in WW1 and yet the OP never suggested that it was. I feel that it was taken soon (within two years) after the TF was formed in 1908, rather than 1915.

[FROGSMILE]

Just to add to what I've already said about not being VTC/Volunteer Force post-1916 - a photo from my collection of 'Drummer Hobbs', unknown battalion of the London Volunteer Regiment, complete with GS capbadge. This one of the reasons I'm eliminating these units.

Now - and this could be a spanner in the works - there are only two quasi military units that I can think of which would be daring enough to wear 'military' dress prior to the War - the first would be National Reservists, who officially weren't uniformed, but I do know two Counties that defied the ban on military uniform - one of which was Westminster National Reserve.

The second and probably daftest - a British mainland 'UVF' band. Sounds daft I know, but I do know certain areas of the country, you did have strong Irish communities which followed the situation in Ireland at the time, and some may have had bands, but I have to admit I don't know if such bands were allowed to flourish in London.

A great image Graham. I agree that the OPs photo is not VTC.

I don't think that the photo shows any of the WW1 volunteers (including National Reserves) and the Northern Irish protestant's propensity to use diced caps to reflect Scottish ancestry is a relatively modern phenomenon, associated with 'the troubles'

I believe your earlier comment about a likely Scottish association to be far more apposite.

[high wood]

http://themanchester...5f&topic=6485.0

I believe that the chap on the left is Frederick Lister Kettlewell, Bandmaster of the Lord Mayor's Recruiting Band. (Lord Mayor of London that is).

See this link to my post on the Manchester Regiment Forum to see a comparison photograph; you will have to sign up if you are not already a member.

[KathyTaylor]

Hi Guys, I am following this with great interest and as requested here is the uncropped version.

Kathy

[Guest]

I chanced upon this site, that may be of interest to some of you Click

Mike

[high wood]

Here is Bandmaster Frederick J Lister with his son.

[FROGSMILE]

Here is Bandmaster Frederick J Lister with his son.

Great stuff high wood. Can you tell us more about the band's formation here (dates and uniform etc) and also give an idea of how the cap badge looked in detail? Presumably Bandmaster Lister must have been entitled to his rank badges and medal via service in the British Army?

[KathyTaylor]

High Wood

I am gobsmacked.............speachless..... it certainly looks like the man that you say is Bandmaster Frederick Lister Kettlewell, Bandmaster of the Lord Mayor of London's Recruiting Band. Cap badge and the chequered ribbon are the same as well.

Kathy

[Guest]

Well done High Wood, 10/10 for that effort.

Mike

[high wood]

I am sorry but I cannot add anything more at this stage. The photograph came from a house clearance along with the son's medals. I presume that the Lord Mayor already had a band and put it to good use in late 1914 for recruiting purposes. Apparently the City of London Police wear a similar diced band on their caps to this day. Unsurprisingly both Fred Lister Kettlewell and his son, Frederick John Kettlewell are both listed as musicians on the 1911 census.

[FROGSMILE]

The caps look very much as if they were obtained from the Scots Guards, who would have been on public duties in London.

I doubt that the police wore such chequering then, it was a more recent adoption I believe.

[Muerrisch]

Great stuff high wood. Can you tell us more about the band's formation here (dates and uniform etc) and also give an idea of how the cap badge looked in detail? Presumably Bandmaster Lister must have been entitled to his rank badges and medal via service in the British Army?

I can of course live with the medal, but permission to retain rank and wear uniform was not even automatic for officers, let alone WOs I believe.

Is there now a pre-war consensus or have I missed something?

Once again the GWF has demonstratd the breadth and depth of its expertise and indeed its good humoured ability to disagree and bicker low key!

[KathyTaylor]

I have found a reference to the Lord Mayor’s Recruiting Band in the book: Borough Over The Border – Life in West Ham 1895-1915 by Pat Francis. The book referrers to an article in the Stratford Express newspaper of 14 August 1915 which could well be describing the story of the photograph.

“Recruitment was constant, to enrol for active service to replace the thousands of men being lost, and to do war work at home. There was also a drive to keep up the spirits and determination of the workers. One Wednesday in August, for instance, Bandmaster Fleet led in the Lord Mayor of London's Recruiting Band to encourage those engaged at Dexine Works in Stratford. 'Choice selections of military music were rendered in the factory yard by the visitors, and thoroughly appreciated by the assembled audience.' Between numbers, Sergeant-Major Ostler of Stratford Recruiting Staff and the Bandmaster addressed those present. The Sergeant-Major 'dwelt on the great importance of production during the present crisis, and urged the employees to "stick to it," remarking by so doing they were serving their King and country equally with the men in the trenches'. He reminded them to wear their war worker’s badges, telling them they should be as proud of them as he was of his medals. Bandmaster Fleet spoke especially of the great part women were called upon to perform. The band played ‘Auld Lang Syne', ‘Rule Britannia', and the National Anthem, and the occasion finished cheers all round. Sergeant-Major Ostler usually recruited at dinner-time in Stratford Broadway. He had to persuade war-workers to wear their badges, as some men were reluctant to do so because they were teased.”

I would think that it is very likely that the visiting Lord Mayor’s Band would have been accommodated at the nearby Artillery Barracks of 2nd East Anglian Brigade, East Anglian Division (54th Div). RFA where I understand there was a unit of the 1st Essex Bty. (Territorial Force). Stratford Broadway that is mentioned in the article is an extension of the The Grove (where the photographer was based) and the barracks was two streets away.

So do you think that the event described in the newspaper could relate to my photograph and that the band is the Lord Mayor’s Band and could the officer in dark uniform be the Sergeant-Major of Stratford Recruiting Staff

Kathy

[Muerrisch]

I wish I could say Yes.

But the trees say winter, do they not?

[FROGSMILE]

I have found a reference to the Lord Mayor’s Recruiting Band in the book: Borough Over The Border – Life in West Ham 1895-1915 by Pat Francis. The book referrers to an article in the Stratford Express newspaper of 14 August 1915 which could well be describing the story of the photograph.

“Recruitment was constant, to enrol for active service to replace the thousands of men being lost, and to do war work at home. There was also a drive to keep up the spirits and determination of the workers. One Wednesday in August, for instance, Bandmaster Fleet led in the Lord Mayor of London's Recruiting Band to encourage those engaged at Dexine Works in Stratford. 'Choice selections of military music were rendered in the factory yard by the visitors, and thoroughly appreciated by the assembled audience.' Between numbers, Sergeant-Major Ostler of Stratford Recruiting Staff and the Bandmaster addressed those present. The Sergeant-Major 'dwelt on the great importance of production during the present crisis, and urged the employees to "stick to it," remarking by so doing they were serving their King and country equally with the men in the trenches'. He reminded them to wear their war worker’s badges, telling them they should be as proud of them as he was of his medals. Bandmaster Fleet spoke especially of the great part women were called upon to perform. The band played ‘Auld Lang Syne', ‘Rule Britannia', and the National Anthem, and the occasion finished cheers all round. Sergeant-Major Ostler usually recruited at dinner-time in Stratford Broadway. He had to persuade war-workers to wear their badges, as some men were reluctant to do so because they were teased.”

I would think that it is very likely that the visiting Lord Mayor’s Band would have been accommodated at the nearby Artillery Barracks of 2nd East Anglian Brigade, East Anglian Division (54th Div). RFA where I understand there was a unit of the 1st Essex Bty. (Territorial Force). Stratford Broadway that is mentioned in the article is an extension of the The Grove (where the photographer was based) and the barracks was two streets away.

So do you think that the event described in the newspaper could relate to my photograph and that the band is the Lord Mayor’s Band and could the officer in dark uniform be the Sergeant-Major of Stratford Recruiting Staff

Kathy

Yes I think it is the sergeant major of the recruiting staff, the cap badge and uniform are both correct for that.

Also it seems that the Lord Mayor's parade of that year (1915) was used especially as a recruiting vehicle with the band playing and men signing up on the hoof and falling in behind the Lord Mayor's carriage.

I am fascinated by the band, it will be interesting to see who was the first bandmaster, Fleet, or Lister and what the dates of taking over were. I am wondering if Lister might originally have been in the Guards.

[FROGSMILE]

I can of course live with the medal, but permission to retain rank and wear uniform was not even automatic for officers, let alone WOs I believe.

Is there now a pre-war consensus or have I missed something?

Once again the GWF has demonstratd the breadth and depth of its expertise and indeed its good humoured ability to disagree and bicker low key!

Yes he would have needed special permission.

I now think I was wrong about the date and that you were right with your suggestion of 1915. It seems that the Lord Mayor formed the band and made a sustained recruiting effort that year.

I would just like to learn more now about the status of the band and whether it was a nominal part of the TF, or an entirely private affair, wholly under the control of the Lord Mayor.

There are two links about it:

1. http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=BxUNAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA121&lpg=PA121&dq=Lord+Mayor+of+London+Recruiting+Band+in+1915&source=bl&ots=iUZkz25Q4f&sig=Lq2n41UmQdNLV0hQRlG7LnzBq5s&hl=en&sa=X&ei=YHedUKLoGsup0AWLk4DgCA&ved=0CDYQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q&f=false

2. http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=qC9wJMG0OBwC&pg=PA287&lpg=PA287&dq=Lord+Mayor+of+London+Recruiting+Band+in+1915&source=bl&ots=eFVp5SR-Vz&sig=GfZM_Kqtag5rD4aIb92bjZcu4Z0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=YHedUKLoGsup0AWLk4DgCA&ved=0CEgQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q&f=false

[high wood]

That first link is very interesting as it suggests that as as many as nine bands were raised for recruiting purposes by the Lord Mayor.

[KathyTaylor]

Grumpy, yes of course, the newspaper article refers to the month of August and the trees almost bare, but I bet that there would certainly have been more than one recruiting parade. I will try to investigate some local resources next week to see if I can find out some more.

Kathy

[KathyTaylor]

The Corporation of London is very good for keeping records and I am sure that they will have will some record of the Lord’ Mayor’s Recruiting Band. This morning I telephoned to the Guildhall Reference Library and was told that the Lord Mayor’s records are kept at the London Metropolitan Archives but they are closed at the moment for stocktaking (reopens 19^th November). The library say they may have some secondary sources there and I will go and go and do some research one day this week. I was also told to contact the Mansion House as they may have something there.

Kathy