Mystery Band

[KathyTaylor]

Can anyone identify the uniform worn by the members of this band. It has been suggested that it could be Service Corps but would they have a ‘diced’ or ‘chequered’ cap band. The photograph was taken by a studio in Stratford, East London.

[Graham Stewart]

Their uniform suggests(rightly or wrongly) that they may infact be a civilian 'military' band, which I believe were quite popular up until the Great War. Many were made up of former Veteran bandsmen and one which was popular in the North East was the Northumberland Veterans Pipe Band based in Newcastle. What caught my eye in particular was that the side drum has a plain brass body, even during this period nearly all military bands had drums embellished with their unit insignia.

[tn.drummond]

I'd suggest the band of a Volunteer training Corps (VTC) .

Their drums were not always decorated with insignia and the uniforms aside the central figure seem apposite.

Central figure seems to be wearing a badge akin to that of the Norfolk Yeomanry. I've seen a number of pictures of VTC units that indicate some old sweats liked to retain their former regimental badges.

Tim

[FROGSMILE]

I too think that they are British Army members, or Auxilliaries of some kind. The man in the darker uniform has fine leather gloves and a large crown badge of rank on his right cuff, making him a warrant officer and his cap badge is like that worn by a number of Army 'Departments' such as Special Recruiters, Prison Governors and some others, being a simple crowned cypher 'GvR'. Medal ribbons, laced collar and cuffs with slashed flaps with 3-buttons are all indicatative.

The man flanking him has the then new British Army bandsmen's proficiency badge on both his cuffs, surmounted by an imperial crown, which would indicate that he is the band sergeant major. He also wears 'superior' shoulder cords and, as well as the dicing around the forage cap, appears to have coloured tabs (gorgets) upon which the collar badges are set, which was often a special feature of mounted units. The distinctive clasp of his single medal is reminiscent of that of a Meritorious Service Medal, of which there were several types of ribbon depending upon Service and origin within the Empire/Commonwealth.

The general uniform of the bandsmen is reminiscent of the very early style SD from the latter end of the Boer War when chest pocket flaps were often slightly pointed, and they also have the twisted cord shoulder straps that for a period were popular. The waist belts are from the 1903 bandolier equipment, which would again indicate a mounted association. Adjacent to the band sergeant major can be seen (just) the badge of rank of a sergeant.

It was a criminal offence at that time to wear the King's uniform without express entitlement, so I am sure that they are not civilians.

I would date the photo to very early in George V's reign.

[KathyTaylor]

Graham and Tim

Many thanks for your useful replies suggesting a civilian 'military' band or a Volunteer Training Corps (VTC) band. The age of bandsmen may well indicate that they were Veteran’s, and just half a mile away from the address of the photographer is The Cedars, West Ham which was the base of local Volunteer or Yeomanry unit which became 6th (T.F.) Essex (West Ham), (now the base of 7 Rifles). I will contact them and show them the photo to see they can maybe identify the band. Will let you know if I come up with anything.

Do you think that the chequered cap band is unusual for a unit or band from East London (Essex)?

Kathy

[KathyTaylor]

Frogsmile

Your comments about entitlement to wear the uniform would indicate that they are indeed veterans or volunteers but I cannot relate the cap badges (the star shape with a crown above) to that the Essex Regiment at that time (who were based locally), although I have come across earlier c1870 Essex shako badges of a similar shape.

I am sure by now you will have all gathered that I do not know very much at all about army uniforms. My interest is that I am a local historian and came across this photograph taken buy a local photographer and am trying to find out ‘who, what, where, when and why’. I have seen lots of photos of local brass bands and all of them connected to shops, factories, club, churches etc. but this band do not seem to fit into this category nor does it seem to relate to the Essex Volunteers or TA’s.

Kathy

[Graham Stewart]

Have to admit I'm not convinced they're military, but here is a wonderful Band site that may actually help you out;-

http://www.ibew.org.uk/vbbp-uk.htm

[FROGSMILE]

Frogsmile

Your comments about entitlement to wear the uniform would indicate that they are indeed veterans or volunteers but I cannot relate the cap badges (the star shape with a crown above) to that the Essex Regiment at that time (who were based locally), although I have come across earlier c1870 Essex shako badges of a similar shape.

I am sure by now you will have all gathered that I do not know very much at all about army uniforms. My interest is that I am a local historian and came across this photograph taken buy a local photographer and am trying to find out ‘who, what, where, when and why’. I have seen lots of photos of local brass bands and all of them connected to shops, factories, club, churches etc. but this band do not seem to fit into this category nor does it seem to relate to the Essex Volunteers or TA’s.

Kathy

Hello Kathy, I cannot at this stage suggest a unit, but I am utterly convinced that they are British Army, either Territorial Force, or some other auxiliary organisation, there is simply too much regulated uniform evidence for it to be otherwise and I have tried to explain this. It is very rare that I disagree with Graham, who has a huge amount of knowledge and who I have known personally for a very long time, but in this case we must differ. Although quasi miltary bands, often formed from veterans or musicians associated with rifle volunteers were commonplace at that time, it would be unheard of for them to wear the official British Army band sergeant majors badge if they were civilians, not to mention illegal. There is also lots of other evidence, as mentioned.

The bandsmen's cap badge is very similar to that later used by Royal British Legion bands and that in turn was adopted from a generally used band badge from the Victorian era, which in turn was merely a reflection of the 'Brunswick' star plate that had been used on British Army head dress for over 100 years.

[tn.drummond]

This is a real shot in the dark...

I'm comfortable that they are a VTC or similar but am stumped by the dicing (Scottish VTC's wore either a Glengarry or a Tam o' Shanter) and badge.

I wonder, could this be a dedicated Police VTC ?

No idea if such existed and suggestion is, as I indicated, a rather high 'punt'.

Tim

[FROGSMILE]

This is a real shot in the dark...

I'm comfortable that they are a VTC or similar but am stumped by the dicing (Scottish VTC's wore either a Glengarry or a Tam o' Shanter) and badge.

I wonder, could this be a dedicated Police VTC ?

No idea if such existed and suggestion is, as I indicated, a rather high 'punt'.

Tim

I can understand why you thought that, but the police did not adopt dicing on their headwear until well after WW2. You can google this and read all about the officer who introduced it as a means to make the constables more distinctive.

[tn.drummond]

I can understand why you thought that but the police did not adopt dicing on their headwear until well after WW2. You can google this and read all about the officer who introduced it as a means to make the constables more distinctive.

Much obliged.

I think the dicing may be the key to this one.

Tim

Will continue to dig after

[Graham Stewart]

This is a real shot in the dark...

I'm comfortable that they are a VTC or similar but am stumped by the dicing (Scottish VTC's wore either a Glengarry or a Tam o' Shanter) and badge.

I wonder, could this be a dedicated Police VTC ?

No idea if such existed and suggestion is, as I indicated, a rather high 'punt'.

Tim

However not all Scottish VTC/Volunteer units wore traditional head-dress - I have a photo of a gentleman of Lanarkshire Volunteer Regiment wearing an SD pattern cap.

[KathyTaylor]

My first thought was that this could have been volunteers from the police (like a PALS brigade) as the shape of the badge was like the Met. Police and also the chequered or diced band on the cap. I contacted the Met. Police Archive and Historical Collection but they said that it was not a police band, and that the chequered ribbon did was not used by the police until much later.

I had forgotten that there was an Artillery Barracks (2^nd East Anglian Brigade R.F.A.) at Stratford and literally just around the corner from the photographer’s studio. The barracks is shown quite clearly on the 1916 OS Map for Stratford can anyone see a connection with this.

Kathy

[Joe Sweeney]

Kathy,

Can we see thebwhole picture in context. I'm kinda with Graham on this--- I'm not convinced this is Military.

Joe Sweeney

[FROGSMILE]

My first thought was that this could have been volunteers from the police (like a PALS brigade) as the shape of the badge was like the Met. Police and also the chequered or diced band on the cap. I contacted the Met. Police Archive and Historical Collection but they said that it was not a police band, and that the chequered ribbon did was not used by the police until much later.

I had forgotten that there was an Artillery Barracks (2^nd East Anglian Brigade R.F.A.) at Stratford and literally just around the corner from the photographer’s studio. The barracks is shown quite clearly on the 1916 OS Map for Stratford can anyone see a connection with this.

Kathy

I think that the association of the studio is in danger of being something of a red herring. None of the head dress badges shown have anything obvious to do with the Essex Yeomanry, Essex Regiment, or RFA. I am wondering instead if it might be that the photograph was actually 'taken' elsewhere in Britain, but then the plates delivered to and developed by, the studio at Stratford. The dicing is unlikely to have any other than a Scottish association at that time and that is where I believe your focus should lie, as implied by Graham.

It would be useful to see a close up scan of the collar badges if that is possible.

[Graham Stewart]

While Frogsmile and I nearly always come the same conclusions on military photos - my instincts are telling me there's something not right with this group of bandsmen, despite the fact they're wearing military band insignia and I'll list them;-

(i)Gentleman in the blues - certainly not a pattern of blues that I recognise, especially with the scalloped cuff and piping round the collar - just doesn't make sense!!! He also wears a single crown on his cuff, we know the rank would be Sgt Major pre-1915, but by the time the Volunteers were wearing khaki in 1916 - their rank badges reflected the same as being worn by the regulars. The VTC had their own unique rank structure and insignia.

(ii)The general pattern of SD worn by the others, with pointed flap, was commonly seen around the time of the South African War, but again being khaki, wasn't worn by the VTC and by 1916 the Volunteers were wearing a regular pattern of SD, although of a different material.

(iii)Gorget patches on the collars - something I've never seen among military band photo's.

(iv)Why the cap badge illustrated? - VTC/Volunteer units were as proud of their insignia, as their regular and T.F. counterparts.

Is there any chance of a look at the group photo as a whole

[FROGSMILE]

Kathy,

Can we see thebwhole picture in context. I'm kinda with Graham on this--- I'm not convinced this is Military.

Joe Sweeney

Hmmm that's interesting Joe. So how would you explain the British Army band sergeant major's (aka bandmaster) badge on the figure left and the military cap badge, warrant officers badge and medal ribbons of the figure on the right, (albeit that I recognise that civilian bands were permitted to wear any medals that they had been awarded in crown service)?

[FROGSMILE]

While Frogsmile and I nearly always come the same conclusions on military photos - my instincts are telling me there's something not right with this group of bandsmen, despite the fact they're wearing military band insignia and I'll list them;-

(i)Gentleman in the blues - certainly not a pattern of blues that I recognise, especially with the scalloped cuff and piping round the collar - just doesn't make sense!!! He also wears a single crown on his cuff, we know the rank would be Sgt Major pre-1915, but by the time the Volunteers were wearing khaki in 1916 - their rank badges reflected the same as being worn by the regulars. The VTC had their own unique rank structure and insignia.

(ii)The general pattern of SD worn by the others, with pointed flap, was commonly seen around the time of the South African War, but again being khaki, wasn't worn by the VTC and by 1916 the Volunteers were wearing a regular pattern of SD, although of a different material.

(iii)Gorget patches on the collars - something I've never seen among military band photo's.

(iv)Why the cap badge illustrated? - VTC/Volunteer units were as proud of their insignia, as their regular and T.F. counterparts.

Is there any chance of a look at the group photo as a whole

Those are all rational and reasonable points Graham, but I am not convinced by a post 1916 date (where was that date ever mentioned by the OP?) and I feel the photo to be very early in the GvR reign, as mentioned above and nothing whatsoever to do with the much later VTC (perhaps another red herring).

At that time 'Departments' of the Army (i.e. the very small inspectorates and specialised units - of which there were still many) often had undress uniforms that differed in small aspects from the large corps and more common Line units and their badge was often the Royal cypher. Even the School of Musketry was forced to forego its more usual crossed rifles and crown for the Royal cypher for a time.

Also, if you look carefully, you can see that the warrant officers badge is worn on both cuffs, which would be perfectly correct for the uniform at the date I am suggesting (around 1910-11). As you know warrant officers and first class staff serjeants were entitled to superior lace on collar and cuffs and this, together with the scalloped flap might well be how how the department concerned reflected his status. There is nothing there that looks out of place to me and as we know that was a period of enormous change within the Army, not least in terms of dress.

Collar gorgets were a feature of some mounted units from around that period and were often coloured in an attempt to brighten up the post Boer War drab uniforms that were so prevalent in the decade after 1900 (those dressed as Lancers come to mind, although I am not suggesting it is Lancers shown).

It is also inconceivable to me that the British Army's Band Sergeant Major's badge (not that long introduced) would be worn by a civilian band.

Finally, auxiliary forces bands were notorious for using old pattern uniforms long after they had ceased being used by first line units.

My best assessment, based upon the pictorial evidence that can be seen, is that this is a band of the only recently formed (1908) Territorial Force, perhaps of a Scottish Yeomanry unit.

[Muerrisch]

The man on left as you look at it wears BANDMASTER badge lower cuff ....... it was running much earlier than the small version upper arm for those junior.

But he also wears the old bandmaster shoulder cords, used before bandmaster badge, an anomaly: one thing or t'other!

But his pockets are without pleats and perhaps a version of the economy 1914/15 issue ?

This has to be irregular unit at best, and 1915 or later, is best I can do.

Clearly we have been shown a crop ......... might we see more please?

[tn.drummond]

Thought this may help by way of comparison - an authenticated VTC band and one, incidentally, I've never been able to trace.

Note: Drums not decorated and gorget patches.

Tim

[Joe Sweeney]

Hmmm that's interesting Joe. So how would you explain the British Army band sergeant major's (aka bandmaster) badge on the figure left and the military cap badge, warrant officers badge and medal ribbons of the figure on the right, (albeit that I recognise that civilian bands were permitted to wear any medals that they had been awarded in crown service)?

FS,

The smae way I see bands today wearing military rank for members--its especially common in Pipe Bands and non school bands.

Joe Sweeney

[daggers]

About diced cap bands. Did not the English and Welsh police adopt these from the Scottish police , who had them much earlier?

[Graham Stewart]

Thought this may help by way of comparison - an authenticated VTC band and one, incidentally, I've never been able to trace.

Note: Drums not decorated and gorget patches.

Tim

In grey/green uniforms, green piping on the collars(not gorget patches) and note the VTC cuff rank at the rear. If you have the original check for a makers mark, VTC units never served out side of their recruiting areas.

[tn.drummond]

About diced cap bands. Did not the English and Welsh police adopt these from the Scottish police , who had them much earlier?

Not that much earlier - I followed Frogsmile's advice and looked at the dreaded Wikepedia. Seems introduced in Glasgow in 1932 by Sir Percy Sillitoe, Chief Constable, and subsequently named Sillitoe tartan for him.

Tim

[tn.drummond]

In grey/green uniforms, green piping on the collars(not gorget patches) and note the VTC cuff rank at the rear. If you have the original check for a makers mark, VTC units never served out side of their recruiting areas.

Apologies Graham, is indeed piping.

I do have the original and have checked this one to destruction without success. Please don't let this detract from original enquiry - mine was posted for comparison only.