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Glengarry WW1?


mark holden
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Have seen images of the regiment dated 1901   with plain glengarry for or's and officers wearing atholl bonnets. I missed out on the bidding for a full album from this regiment.

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It could have been swapped I guess. But would have thought if scottish reserve. Then would have been to old to participate in ww1? These are very confusing pieces of headgear to date.

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32 minutes ago, Lammy said:

Have seen images of the regiment dated 1901   with plain glengarry for or's and officers wearing atholl bonnets. I missed out on the bidding for a full album from this regiment.

The Regiment in 1901 was the Royal Garrison Regiment, which was disbanded after the war.  The Royal Reserve Regiment was raised to replace it with different (less expensive to government) terms and conditions of service.

30 minutes ago, Lammy said:

Who would this bonnet be badged too?

None of the combinations of colours and toories seem to fit?

Probably a Territorial Force (i.e. post 1908) unit.

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36 minutes ago, Lammy said:

It could have been swapped I guess. But would have thought if scottish reserve. Then would have been to old to participate in ww1? These are very confusing pieces of headgear to date.

It could just as easily be a botch.  It’s been well over a century now and there are unscrupulous dealers who put unrelated items together to promote a premium pricing.

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35 minutes ago, Lammy said:

I had the dates 1900-1901  for reserve regiments. Then 1901-until later date for the reserve garrison.? Or are those wrong? They were used at Victoria funeral.

from here https://www.nickmetcalfe.co.uk/the-royal-reserve-regiments-and-the-royal-garrison-regiment/

Yes Nick Metcalfe’s site is accurate and quite well known.  It was Reserve first then Garrison.  It’s not really material to your dating the bonnet and badge, which unfortunately do not match.  I’m glad your happy with what you paid.

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Yes more than. It is a good lokloking bonnet, for its age. Even if badged wrong. Just wished I had not missed the last bid on that album for the 1st battalion Scottish Reserve Regiment,  as pictures are pretty scarce. Hopefully someone shares them.?

Any idea what a blue toorie means?

Edited by Lammy
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59 minutes ago, Lammy said:

Yes more than. It is a good lokloking bonnet, for its age. Even if badged wrong. Just wished I had not missed the last bid on that album for the 1st battalion Scottish Reserve Regiment,  as pictures are pretty scarce. Hopefully someone shares them.?

Any idea what a blue toorie means?

Yes I would like to see the photos too.  Images of those Garrison and then Reserve units are exceedingly rare.

The blue toorie is the woollen tassel in the top centre of the bonnet.  They were commonly either red, or blue for Scots regiments and many decades before (pre-1860) could also be seen in white and green (for flank companies).

Edited by FROGSMILE
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Managed to find this in my cache.

2nd Battalion Royal Scottish Reserve regiment.

20210720_202936.jpg.3aab2bc19449ba30bde3eaf6ea8390aa.jpg

Not the best image , but looks like the Atholl Bonnet.

A few more I managed to salvage from my cache.

20210720_210748.jpg.7d9cfc7a8ea26f515ce3c1b0bce4a585.jpg

20210720_210717.jpg.984390020a9d76d11c47b713eb9e96d1.jpg

Plain glengarry  some with feathers. Supposedly all from between 1900-1901 so a very short period.

20210720_210638.jpg.08f5c8ab5677c7aeaaec114ed30afd78.jpg

Edited by Lammy
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I think those images show a Volunteer Battalion (VB) of the Volunteer Force that existed pre-1908, in the form of battalions designated with a separate numbering sequence, but aligned with a regular regiment (e.g. 1st VB Gordon Highlanders).  Such units didn’t always have scarlet tunics, and sometimes wore entirely different insignia to their regular parent that related to their previous existence and origins as rifle volunteer corps (RVC).  As well as what appear Elcho grey tunics, you can see efficiency stars on the forearms of some men that were unique to the volunteers. 

Conversely to all that, the Scottish Garrison, and Reserve Regiments, wore conventional scarlet uniform and did not use efficiency stars.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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1 hour ago, Lammy said:

Thank you for your help :) This was the description , for the album.

Small photograph album containing 26 photographic images of the ROYAL SCOTTISH RESERVE REGIMENT 1900 - 1901

Unfortunately the caption of an album made by a seller isn’t always accurate.  Scottish uniform can be immensely complex and requires sustained study to even scrape the surface.  Fortunately, in this case there are several key pieces of visual evidence.

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Thank you. Really helpfull :) Yeah I need to do a lot more reading. As if I dont do enough already. Haha But will keep searching until I figure out, why the blue toorie. I have a couple of books coming on , Scottish uniform from yeomanry until 1914. Hopefully it may shed some light.

I think the cockade/rosette could be original as I can only see 4 tiny dots of thread stitching on each corner, on the inside.  Yet it has more stitching on the outside holding it flat.? The dicing looks to be part of the headband, machine stiched all the way around. With the top edge of the dicing, hand stitched,  very neatly and evenly all of the way around.

Only difference to other bonnets that I have studied from images, is that unlike others I have seen.  Mine has 3 rows of central (have only seen with 2 rows?) stitching, the large square stitched through the silk and the hessian middle on the inside of the bonnet. No idea p

This I can see , from a tiny wear hole , on the inside of the bonnet.

No stitching can be seen anywhere from the outside. No marks that I can see.

 

Edited by Lammy
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46 minutes ago, Lammy said:

Thank you. Really helpfull :) Yeah I need to do a lot more reading. As if I dont do enough already. Haha But will keep searching until I figure out, why the blue toorie. I have a couple of books coming on , Scottish uniform from yeomanry until 1914. Hopefully it may shed some light.

I think the cockade/rosette could be original as I can only see 4 tiny dots of thread stitching on each corner, on the inside.  Yet it has more stitching on the outside holding it flat.? The dicing looks to be part of the headband, machine stiched all the way around. With the top edge of the dicing, hand stitched,  very neatly and evenly all of the way around.

Only difference to other bonnets that I have studied from images, is that unlike others I have seen.  Mine has 3 rows of central (have only seen with 2 rows?) stitching, the large square stitched through the silk and the hessian middle on the inside of the bonnet. No idea p

This I can see , from a tiny wear hole , on the inside of the bonnet.

No stitching can be seen anywhere from the outside. No marks that I can see.

 

I can’t think offhand of any unit that had a dark blue toorie combined with dicing like that.  There are some Scottish enthusiasts such as @TullochArd and @gordon92 who might have a view.  

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Th square middle stitching 3 rows?

20210721_193859.jpg.8ab62af253ff50bddb8bb72e71d67fe2.jpg

The hessian padding/cushion between liner and felt

20210721_193831.jpg.613c8d3ed2580f24758e86a2131dda85.jpgLondon Scottish had blue, but was a lighter blue, also no dicing.

I cant remember where , I heard/read somewhere , about a mixup, with dicing colours,  being issued/made incorrectly.? Will see if I can remember where.

Edited by Lammy
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29 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I can’t think offhand of any unit that had a dark blue toorie combined with dicing like that.  There are some Scottish enthusiasts such as @TullochArd and @gordon92 who might have a view.  

6th HLI wore a red-white-blue diced Balmoral bonnet with dark blue toorie.  Post-1948, the 1st HLI wore the same bonnet.

I'm pretty sure the question pertains to Balmorals only.  Nonetheless, officers and warrant officers of both HLI regular battalions used diced glengarries with blue toorie until 1913.  Same pattern glengarry was worn by all ranks of the 8th HLI.

Edit: In all cases above the correct color in the dicing was green rather than blue.

Edited by gordon92
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24 minutes ago, gordon92 said:

 

Edit: In all cases above the correct color in the dicing was green rather than 

Edited by FROGSMILE
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Here’s the well known WW1 6th HLI uniform. They were a TF battalion whose dress origins laid with their earlier existence as rifle volunteer corps.  They were not regular soldiers but citizen auxiliaries.  The feathers were only worn on parade.

NB.  I mentioned yesterday at 13.04 that it was likely to be a TF (Territorial Force) unit.  I know of no regular unit with blue toorie.

62F72068-9776-4E46-8FA5-641691CEAA46.jpeg

A045A006-6984-448E-A8B6-D9C79BED9F22.jpeg

07D2B3D1-706E-4BD7-AD8F-7C3974BAFB66.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE
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32 minutes ago, Lammy said:

So was the 6th's use of red-white-and-blue diced, an error, or a form of identification. For the 8th?

 

27 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Here’s the well known WW1 6th HLI uniform. They were a TF battalion whose dress origins laid with their earlier existence as rifle volunteer corps.  They were not regular soldiers but citizen auxiliaries.  The feathers were only worn on parade.

NB.  I mentioned yesterday at 13.04 that it was likely to be a TF (Territorial Force) unit.  I know of no regular unit with blue toorie.

62F72068-9776-4E46-8FA5-641691CEAA46.jpeg

A045A006-6984-448E-A8B6-D9C79BED9F22.jpeg

07D2B3D1-706E-4BD7-AD8F-7C3974BAFB66.jpeg

To my eye, the dicing on the Balmoral in the OP could easily be dark green.  It is, of course, difficult to distinguish similarly hued colors from photographs.

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14 minutes ago, gordon92 said:

 

To my eye, the dicing on the Balmoral in the OP could easily be dark green.  It is, of course, difficult to distinguish similarly hued colors from photographs.

Although I agree that colours can alter over time from sun fading, natural ageing, and even changes in vegetable, or chemical dyes due to storage conditions, I can’t see anything but dark blue in the OPs image.  Scrutinising the photo, which is recent and thus uses modern, colour true imagery, suggests there’s not even a hint of green, but he will be the best person to judge if he has the bonnet in his possession.

 

2F2999A4-45F6-41A0-987F-60D4893981B5.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE
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2 minutes ago, Lammy said:

Being colour blind does not help any either. :)

I can try and take some sunlight images. That should bring the colour out more.

A good indicator will be the similarity in shade between the dark blue of the body of the bonnet and what appears dark blue within the dicing.  If the latter had ever been more of a green shade then the two will contrast relatively distinctly in directly projected lighting. 

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