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Glengarry WW1?


mark holden
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I would welcome expert opinion on the period of this very well used Glengarry to the HLI. Its Blue not Rifle Green and the torrie is black. Band is cloth. I can just make out a 4 digit service number. I believe that most WW1 period Glengarrys had a leather band but do recall, I think, that there was a post 1915 economy pattern that ommitted the dicing and had a cloth band...on the other hand that may be a figment of imagination?

thanks Mark

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Mark,

There are many Forum members with expert knowledge of Glengarrys, and I am sure they can answer your question.

I have some photographs of various Glengarrys from John Bodsworth's excellent book on WW1 British uniforms.

I am attaching them with the book's text, which may also assist you.

Regards,

LF

Plain coloured Glengarrys :-

From the top -

Cap, Glengarry, blue.

These were dark blue shade, with black ribbon tails and red tuft. They were worn by the Black Watch ( Royal Highlanders ) and the Cameron Highlanders. Unusually, they did not have a black rosette behind the cap badge.

These Glengarries were also worn by pipers and sargeant pipers of the Royal Scots.

Fig 27 - Black Watch Glengarry, with a red tuft.

Fig 28 - Cameron Highlanders Glengarry.

Cap, Glengarry, green.

These were rifle green, again with black ribbon tails, but with a black tuft. They were worn by the Cameronians ( Scottish Rifles ) and the Highland Light Infantry.

Fig 29 - Cameronians Glengarry

Fig 30 - 9th Bn Highland Light Infantry Glengarry.

2nd page.

From the top -

Cap, Glengarry, scarlet and white diced border.

Dark blue in colour, this had a red and white diced border, with the usual black tails and a red tuft.

Worn only by the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders, the red and white border represented the " Thin Red Line " at

Balaclava in 1854.

Fig 31 - Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders Glengarry.

Cap, Glengarry, scarlet, white and green diced border.

Again a dark blue Glengarry, this having a red, white and green diced border, with the usual black tails and red tuft. It was worn by the Royal Scots, Royal Scots Fusiliers, King's Own Scottish Borderers, Seaforth Highlanders and the Gordon Highlanders.

Fig 32 - KSOB Glengarry.

Fig 33 - Sealed Pattern Glengarry 1914.

The book also states this other intresting fact, that although the Glengarry is recognised as a traditional form of Scottish headdress, the Glengarry was worn universally by most British Regiments from 1874 to 1895.

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LF,

Many thanks. I was confused by the fact that it has a HLI badge, which is deeply set in the rosette and has clearly been on it for years, and the fact that it is Blue not Green.

regards

Mark

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Mark,

The book also states that the Glengarry came in 3 qualities, the basic version issued to other ranks normally had a calfskin sweatband, as slightly superior quality for Staff ( Warrant Officers ), and a superior quality for officers, with both the Staff and Officer's Gengarries having silk covered headbands.

Your Glengarry looks to have a silk covered headband ?

Regards,

LF

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Thanks for posting that LF. Very useful (as are your medal picture cards) :thumbsup:

Mike

Thanks Mike,

I am pleased you liked them.

Regards,

LF

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Mark,

I would be a bit more concerned about the HLI Badge and the Glen not being Green.

For the HLI--Black Leather binding was introduced in 1908 and in 1914 superceded by Brown Calfskin.

In 1914 (pattern 8160/1914), after war began a plain Green Glen with faux Silk Binding was introduced.

On thing you should also be aware is that the 1908 addition of the Black leather binding replaced Faux Silk on ORs Glens.

Joe Sweeney

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Chaps,

Thank you one and all for the detailed replies.

Specifically for Joe Sweeney: I too am confused by the fact the the Glengarry is Blue all I can say is that the badge has sat on the rosette for a considerable time and there is a very noticeable colour variation under the badge where the material is much darker than that which is not covered by badge. There is no evidence that I can find that it had anything other than the HLI badge applied to it.

For Tom McC: The tails cross over at the root end, I asume that this is the part closest to the back of the cap itself. They are machined together.

thanks again Mark

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  • 3 years later...

i would appreciate help with an inherited glengarry.

the reason for adding to this 3 year old post is that the glengarry is identical to the one shown in mark holdens post of 24/12/2012 except that the badge is long-gone. very dark blue, black ribbon and tails, black tourie. faint traces inside of the kings crown shield and words PAISLEY ? and GLASGOW. rest indecipherable. it is probable that it belonged to my uncles father, John Sloan, who before WW1 was a marine draftsman in Port Glasgow.

having read the posts thoroughly, i am somewhat concerned that the detail of the mark holdens glengarry did not fit the examples. eg a black tourie seems to go with dark green, whereas his and mine are blue.

tia dick fowler .

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very dark blue, black ribbon and tails, black tourie.

If the tourie were in fact very dark blue too - I can't find a record of a black tourie - then this glen would be consistent with either the London Scottish or the Tyneside Scottish.

Cheers,

GT.

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ah! that is interesting. many thanks grovetown. the tourie could be dark blue too i will get some more light on it.

thats a puzzle. the family DID end up in London but i thought that was after WW1. I will check. however, my uncle served in palestine towwards end WW2 but in which regiment i do not know. could this be a ww2 glengarry do you think? as i said it really is identical to the one mark holden pictured in 2012.

thanks

df

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With the type of edge trim shown in Mark's example, I would expect it to date to nearer WWII. I have one the same that came without a badge.

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With the type of edge trim shown in Mark's example, I would expect it to date to nearer WWII. I have one the same that came without a badge.

I'm not too troubled by the edging as faux silk was used pre- and post-war. However, the possibly black tourie has been bugging me - as no (British) regimental pattern features them.

So am wondering if it's simply non- or 'paramilitary': pipe band, or a vintage Boys Brigade officer's glengarry: in Mark's case badged up incorrectly and unwittingly, perhaps, by a rellie of the previous owner.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Three-Vintage-Boys-Brigade-Hats-/252070017361?hash=item3ab08b3951

http://sloughmuseum.org/collection/boys-brigade-hat-known-as-a-glengarry-hat-c-1930-1940/

http://denhams.com/lots/search/boys+brigade

Cheers,

GT.

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I have often found that over the passage of time a very dark blue fades to black on much military uniform.

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  • 3 years later...

Bringing this post back to life please! - I have been given a 'supposed' Black Watch Glengarry which has a Blue Tuft/Tourie. I know that the BW Tourie and Hackle are of course red, but is there any way that this could be genuine? It has a Black Watch badge and rosette (post WW1) on it and looks good but the Tourie colour baffles me.

Are there any examples of the BW wearing a Blue Tourie or is this hat a 'put together' - your thoughts would be appreciated. Thank you

Edited by Jonathan D'Hooghe
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On 09/12/2018 at 20:58, Jonathan D'Hooghe said:

Bringing this post back to life please! - I have been given a 'supposed' Black Watch Glengarry which has a Blue Tuft/Tourie. I know that the BW Tourie and Hackle are of course red, but is there any way that this could be genuine? It has a Black Watch badge and rosette (post WW1) on it and looks good but the Tourie colour baffles me.

Are there any examples of the BW wearing a Blue Tourie or is this hat a 'put together' - your thoughts would be appreciated. Thank you

 

A red toorie was the mark of a Royal Regiment Jonathan, unless also a Rifle regiment, in which case the cap was green with black toorie, as with all Rifle regiments that wore one.  Ergo I cannot see that your cap could be Black Watch, whose secondary title was the 'Royal Highland Regiment.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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I think in the early period, when the Simplified glens were introduced, there might have been a bit of 'get what you're given'.

 

Joe is not his usual reliable self on this one because, other than the Cameronians and HLI, he describes everyone as having a red tourie

 

Yet the Simplified patterns had a blue-and-blue model, as well as a blue-and-red and while you were supposed to get the tourie to match your previous one; I'm beggared if I can work out who had blue-and-blue.

 

And I've had a bang-on, badged-forever, 1915 dated Cameron one - also with blue tourie.

 

The PCVN and RACD books need revisiting by someone keener than I for clarification.

 

Cheers,

 

GT.

 

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Thank you one and all for your further comments. I think that you have confirmed my suspicions that this is not a genuine BW Glengarry. Caveat Emptor applies!

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  • 2 years later...

Was  black/blue with very dark/blue toorie, not the royal scottish Reserve Regiment? I own a blue atholl red/white/blue or black diced, with very dark/blue toorie. Badged to the royal scottish Reserve  Regiment.

.

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Looks black , but in certain light you can clearly see it is a blue bonnet , the toorie also looks like the same colour blue , but is infact a tad lighter in colour.

Edited by Lammy
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The Royal Reserve Regiment was a post 2nd Boer War creation, before such bonnets were issued.  The English, Welsh and Irish regiments within it wore a Brodrick cap with one of various National or regional badges and the Scots regiment a glengarry.  You appear to have a genuine WW1 or later bonnet, but with an earlier badge retrofitted.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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