Is this real?

[keithmroberts]

Bummer, I have just finished my two week stint in Bradford libraries, and won't be able to get back in today before heading back to Pompey at dawn tomorrow.

Maybe someone else will be able to check.

Keith

[Old Owl]

I'm hoping to pay a visit to the library at Bradford tomorrow, so I will endeavour to check the Shipley Times and Express for any mention of the gun.

I will report back.

Robert

[Old Owl]

Reporting back.

Following a fruitless search of the indexes at Bradford Library and also the Shipley Newspaper, I eventually found a newspaper cutting from the Telgraph and Argus of 4/6/82 entitled:

"The Esholt Gun"

"A recent picture in the Telegraph and Argus of a German gun, dug up at Esholt Sewage Works, has prompted Mr Harry Denny to send us a photo of it, above, in its former glory.

In the 1920's the old gun was quite a local landmark and Mr Denny, of Low Ash Grove, Wrose, remembers it well from the days he worked at Esholt.

Now 76, Mr Denny was suprised to see the old gun had been found under soil while excavation work was being carried out at Esholt. "I knew it had been buried and I could have pinpointed the spot, but I never thought I would see it again," he said.

Mr Denny was given the old photographs some years ago while on holiday in Hastings. He said the gun stood at the end of the road which goes towards the Apperley Bridge end on the works land."

If I can work out how to do it!! I will post the photo later, and although it is very dark and indistinct it is possible to see, just, that there are two sets of wheels as was suggested in an earlier post.

It now seems that it is definitely a German gun, and if I can post the picture then someone may be able to identify it properly?

Robert

[Rockdoc]

I'd say that Centurion must be pretty close, Robert. We know it's German, is 150mm calibre and the carriage is missing a set of wheels so I think we have to say it's one of those types he mentioned in Post 16 that was transported in several parts, rather like a gigantic mountain gun. It's not that surprising, I suppose, that it's been set up at Beamish to look as if it's ready to fire. However correct it would have been, having a barrel on a transporter would have raised lots more questions from visitors than it probably does from WW1 researchers like us. Thanks for your efforts at the library. Keith

[Terry_Reeves]

I think it is highly likely that the piece is one distributed under the aegis of the War Trophies Committee which was formed in November 1916 whose terms of reference were &amp;quot;to deal with all questions in regard to the distribution of trophies and to watch the interests of the Imperial War Museum.&amp;quot;   A &amp;quot;trophy&amp;quot; was defined as &amp;quot;including all articles of captured enemy equipment, but such articles were only to be considered as trophies for distribution during the war, if unserviceable or not required for conversion.&amp;quot;   There was much competition for trophies in particular artillery pieces from rival military units, the claims for which had to be substantiated by the War Office. Once a claim had been substantiated the unit in question was asked to state its preference as to where it was to go. There was a proviso however, that it went to a Regimental Depot, a recognised public body or a museum.   A large amount of applications were received from local councils and it is in their minutes books that you are almost certain to  find correspondence relating to such items such as the gun depicted. TR&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I think it is highly likely that the piece is one distributed under the aegis of the War Trophies Committee which was formed in November 1916 whose terms of reference were &amp;quot;to deal with all questions in regard to the distribution of trophies and to watch the interests of the Imperial War Museum.&amp;quot;   A &amp;quot;trophy&amp;quot; was defined as &amp;quot;including all articles of captured enemy equipment, but such articles were only to be considered as trophies for distribution during the war, if unserviceable or not required for conversion.&amp;quot;   There was much competition for trophies, in particular artillery pieces, from rival military units, the claims for which had to be substantiated by the War Office. Once a claim had been substantiated the unit in question was asked to state its preference as to where it was to go. There was a proviso however, that it went to a Regimental Depot, a recognised public body or a museum.   A large amount of applications were received from local councils and it is in their minutes books that you are almost certain to  find correspondence relating to such items such as the gun depicted. <br /><br />Sources:  Statistics of the Military Effort of the British Empire During the Great War, 1914-1918, the War Office  March, 1922<br /><br />City of Coventry Council Minutes Books, various dates.<br /><br />TR

ps , sorry about some of the gobbledy gook but that is the fault of the ongoing problems with invision.

[Old Owl]

I'd say that Centurion must be pretty close, Robert. We know it's German, is 150mm calibre and the carriage is missing a set of wheels so I think we have to say it's one of those types he mentioned in Post 16 that was transported in several parts, rather like a gigantic mountain gun. It's not that surprising, I suppose, that it's been set up at Beamish to look as if it's ready to fire. However correct it would have been, having a barrel on a transporter would have raised lots more questions from visitors than it probably does from WW1 researchers like us. Thanks for your efforts at the library. Keith

Keith,

You are most welcome, I enjoy clearing up little mysteries(or at least part clearing them up!!), I expect that when the gun and its carriage were dug up, that a number of parts were possibly lost or damaged during said excavation and this is why it appears to be a pile of configured scrap. I suppose really it is a wonder that any of it survived at all, although I suspect that the actual barrel would have taken another hundred or two years to disintegrate completely!!

I wonder if anyone has access to a picture of the German gun referred to?

If you PM me your email address I can send you the picture and article and then you could post it on the site--just a thought.

Regards, Robert

PS I'm still working on Centurion's "Ultimate Scrapyard Challenge"---seems like it could could extend to several series now

[CharlieBris]

The 15cm K16 Krupp is a fairly rare gun. However, there is a more or less intact one at the

Carribean Gardens, Scoresby, Melbourne. http://www.mvca.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?f=175&t=1120.

This gun was originally allocated to St Kilda, Melbourne but was destined to be sold for scrap

(got to love these local authority dickheads) - fortunately saved by a local businessman.

The Rohrwagen for a K16 is a very rare piece - I think there may be another one in the US (can't

remember where though).

Regards,

Charlie

[Old Owl]

<br />The 15cm K16 Krupp is a fairly rare gun. However, there is a more or less intact one at the<br />Carribean Gardens, Scoresby, Melbourne. <a href='http://www.mvca.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?f=175&t=1120.' class='bbc_url' title='External link' rel='nofollow external'>http://www.mvca.com....p?f=175&t=1120.</a><br /><br />This gun was originally allocated to St Kilda, Melbourne but was destined to be sold for scrap<br />(got to love these local authority dickheads) - fortunately saved by a local businessman.<br /><br />The Rohrwagen for a K16 is a very rare piece - I think there may be another one in the US (can't<br />remember where though).<br /><br />Regards,<br /><br />Charlie<br />

<br /><br /><br />

Hi Charlie,

This is certainly the same barrel and fittings so it must be the 15cm K16 Krupp, an excellent addition to this thread, thank you. I think that I shall have to make another trip to the library and see if I can come up with the original picture (that is assuming there was one?) when the gun, or should I say Rohrwagen, was first placed at Esholt.

I must say that I have had only passing interest in such items in the past, but have found this thread most interesting.

Best wishes, Robert

[ianjonesncl]

As Centurion pointed out the plaque may be suspect

Certainly 'captured by the DLI at Hooge' has more cudos than 'dug up at a sewage works in Bradford'

The wikipedia entry http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/15_cm_Kanone_16' has it being produced in 1917 and went on to be used in WW2.

The 15 cm Kanone 16 (15 cm K 16) was a heavy field gun used by Germany in World War I and World War II. Guns turned over to Belgium as reparations after World War I were taken into Wehrmacht service after the conquest of the Belgium as the 15 cm K 429

Interesting picture on wiki. Take away the trunions, the recoil mechanism under the barrel, leave the barrel on the carriage and you may get something like the Beamish Gun !!

[Rockdoc]

Here's the clipping from the Telegraph & Argus found by Old Owl. I've tweaked it as best I can but the picture still isn't great but it does show the front wheels in place. I wonder why it was buried rather than scrapped outright? Keith

[Old Owl]

<br />As Centurion pointed out the plaque may be suspect.<br /><br />Certainly 'captured by the DLI at Hooge' has more cudos than 'dug up at a sewage works in Bradford'<br

Hi Ian,

It was I who pointed out that the sign was a little suspect, however that aside, the gun was reputedly unveiled sometime during 1922 at Esholt Hall, which I believe is fairly close to the Esholt Sewage works and presumably to where it was dug up, although our correspondent in the T & A refers to it being at the Apperley Bridge end of the Sewage Works, so perhaps it had already been moved from its original position prior to it being buried?

It was obviously captured at sometime post 1917 and then given out as per the post by Terry under the "War Trophies" scheme. I agree that there seems to be little connection to Hooge, but then again what do we know!!?

If I can find something in the papers from 1922 relating to the unveiling, then this may reveal a connection?

Regards, Robert

[Old Owl]

<br />Here's the clipping from the Telegraph &amp; Argus found by Old Owl. I've tweaked it as best I can but the picture still isn't great but it does show the front wheels in place. I wonder why it was buried rather than scrapped outright?   <img src="http://i637.photobucket.com/albums/uu96/rockdoc2174/3rd%20LT%20Treffen%20July%202011/BeamishGunmodified.jpg" />     Keith<br />

<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />

Thanks for that Keith, it's certainly not a good image but I think that it gives a good feel for what it looked like originally. Most probably some of the other pieces(wheels and such like)still lie buried beneath the Sewage Farm? Anyone fancy a dig?<br /><br />I do intend to have a further search of the papers, but without a definite date it is pretty time consuming work!!<br /><br />I will report back if I have any luck.<br /><br />Robert

[T8HANTS]

I seem to remember the excavation of the gun from the sewage works made the national TV news or a 'Nationwide' style magazine programme, so there may be archive footage somewhere. Also does anybody remember the 'WW1 German field gun' that was advertised free to good home in the pages of the Model Engineer magazine in the late 70's or early 80's. I think it was lurking in East Anglia. I still have the magazine up in the loft, but I am not spending a couple of hours looking through the small ads of a hundred odd mags to find it.

Gareth

[CharlieBris]

It would be fairly unusual for a field unit to capture a long range, high value gun like a 15cm K16 unless

the gun had been abandoned.

I don't know about the British war trophy allocation scheme but the similar scheme in Australia allocated

heavy weapons sourced from the pool of surrendered German guns - these included the long range guns like the K16.

Regards,

Charlie

[Old Owl]

<br /><br /><br />

Spoil sport!! a trip up the loft for a couple of hours on a Sunday afternoon never did anybody any harm!!?

If you come across any mention of 'the gun' from any source at all, please let us know.

Regards, Robert

[Old Owl]

<br />It would be fairly unusual for a field unit to capture a long range, high value gun like a 15cm K16 unless<br />the gun had been abandoned.<br /><br />I don't know about the British war trophy allocation scheme but the similar scheme in Australia allocated<br />heavy weapons sourced from the pool of surrendered German guns - these included the long range guns like the K16.<br /><br />Regards,<br /><br />Charlie<br />

<br /><br /><br />

I expect that quite a high percentage of the guns 'captured' were actually abandoned pieces rather than captured from the hands of the enemy, so to speak!!

I still can't quite see why it ended up at a sewage works, although this was built and owned by the Bradford Corporation and may? have been completed circa 1922, so perhaps it ended up there by default?

[Rockdoc]

To be fair, the sign at Redman Park in the Beamish Museum says nothing about the gun's origin, referring to it simply as a memorial to all those who died in the conflict. We were the ones to decide it probably had something to do with the DLI and Hooge from the date it was rededicated and the regiment's area of recruitment. I'd agree that it's unlikely that this was captured during an offensive and would think it's much more likely to have been selected from the equipment handed over the the Entente forces after the Armistice that was surplus to official requirements. It raises the question of how these items were selected. Did towns, cities and authorities put in a request and get Hobson's Choice? This rohrwagen is very unusual but hardly prepossessing and siting it at a sewage works may have more to do with official disappointment when it arrived than planning! Keith

[ianjonesncl]

<br />As Centurion pointed out the plaque may be suspect.<br /><br />Certainly 'captured by the DLI at Hooge' has more cudos than 'dug up at a sewage works in Bradford'<br

Hi Ian,

It was I who pointed out that the sign was a little suspect, however that aside, the gun was reputedly unveiled sometime during 1922 at Esholt Hall, which I believe is fairly close to the Esholt Sewage works and presumably to where it was dug up, although our correspondent in the T & A refers to it being at the Apperley Bridge end of the Sewage Works, so perhaps it had already been moved from its original position prior to it being buried?

It was obviously captured at sometime post 1917 and then given out as per the post by Terry under the "War Trophies" scheme. I agree that there seems to be little connection to Hooge, but then again what do we know!!?

If I can find something in the papers from 1922 relating to the unveiling, then this may reveal a connection?

Regards, Robert

Robert

Many apologies - however I think you are correct.

I have found the article from the Newcastle Journal which records the unveilingof the gun.

Firstly it is recorded as '1918 Krupp 1918 Kanone'. The article goes onto state that 'It was custom, after the First World War, to place a capturedenemy guns in parks as memorials to those who had lost their lives in theconflict'. It would seem that the gun was part of Beamish creating a parkof yesterday, and the opportunity was taken to dedicate it to the localRegiment, as opposed to it being captured in a specific action of the DLI. TheAugust date of the 'anniversary of the Battle of Hooge' allowied DLIveterans and members of 7LI to attend and provide full military honours for theceremony.

As concerns Esholt, the article states ' The Beamish Gun had been placed in apark in Esholt, in Yorkshire, but during the course of it's removal, some yearslater, it became bogged down and eas abandoned, and subsequently lay buried ina Bradford sewage works for 50 years'

[centurion]

The faded photo shows the gun tube on its transport cart not its gun carriage, As I posted earlier the carriage, elevating mechanism etc would travel as a separate load to allow horse traction to be used. On arrival on site the carriage was tipped forward and the tube winched, breech first off the cart and on to the carriage, passing through the aperture in the gun shield. Its the missing front cart wheels that may still be in the sewerage works.

The tube on its cart would most likely be captured if the Germans were trying to evacuate the gun position in the face of an Allied advance. Amiens (or after) rather than Hooge would seem more likely

BTW I did suggest in one of my earlier posts that the plaque was possibly suspect

[Old Owl]

I wonder if someone could persuade Beamish to renovate this rare Rohrwagen to its former glory? It would seem to be a worthwhile project considering that it may possibly be one of only two in existence. I know that its not the most interesting piece of kit, but rarity must count for something?

Perhaps the other set of wheels had sunk so far into the s**t, that it was impossible to find them!! but I am sure that they could be replicated.

[Rockdoc]

As concerns Esholt, the article states ' The Beamish Gun had been placed in apark in Esholt, in Yorkshire, but during the course of it's removal, some years later, it became bogged down and eas abandoned, and subsequently lay buried ina Bradford sewage works for 50 years'

In which case it wasn't on public display for very long. Assuming the 50 years in your quotation aren't too far from the truth and the newspaper article is from 1982 so the whole thing must have been buried shortly before WW2, i.e.not much more than a decade after it arrived. All in all, its survival, even in the partial state it is is now, is quite remarkable.

Centurion, I had wondered about the winch mechanism on the RH side of the carriage in my photo taken at the breech end. Thanks for the explanation.

Keith

[RobL]

Very interesting - previously i'd believed it to date from the Boer War for some reason. Either way, it's an interesting exhibit in what is a fantastic museum

[ianjonesncl]

Newcastle Journal 10th August 1987

[Rockdoc]

Thanks, Ian.

I'd love to see the carriage restored to its proper configuration but I don't see it happening for two reasons. The first is cost. It's not it great condition now, with small areas of paint flaking off and rust showing through, so they can't have the cash to keep it in its present condition. Second is appearance. As I wrote earlier, now it looks like more or less everyone's idea of a gun. Put it back to the proper configuration and they'd have to make up information boards to explain why it doesn't look like a gun.

It's still a shame, though.

Keith

[CharlieBris]

The other surviving Rohrwagen is at the American Legion Post, Prairie de Rocher, Illinois - (http://www.passioncompassion1418.com/Canons/ImagesCanons/Allemagne/Lourde/english_FC150M16PrairieDeRocher.html).

Burial in the 1930s probably saved the Rohrwagen from the scrap drives during WW2. It looks quite restorable - it's a fairly massive construction so surface rust shouldn't be a major issue. At minimum a surface blast

with soda, surface passivation and repaint would make it more acceptable. The size and weight of the barrel and carriage probably means only an engineering workshop would be able to handle it.

Regards,

Charlie