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Remembered Today:

Is this real?


Rockdoc

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It certainly sounds as if they have a complete Krupp gun carriage and barrel carrier, but don't know how it all fits together. I wonder if the curator has looked at the various photos that have been posted here. It seems as if he may not have done.

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When I reply I'll definitely point him back to this thread. For a start I think we need to know whether he says it's Krupp-built because he's been told that or whether he knows it is. If it does prove to be by Rheinmetal then with only 34 ever made it's a priceless relic and deserves to be restored as fully as possible. Like Centurion, I have no idea what he means by "round the corner". I didn't see anything else but it was bucketing down so I wasn't exploring as much as I might have done on a better day.

I've been looking back at the thread and noticed that one of the links to preserved rohrwagens shows what's again said to be a Krupp gun but it has a Rehinmetal cart with it. I wonder whether the carts, at least, were interchangeable? This story has a way to run yet, I think.

Keith

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When I reply I'll definitely point him back to this thread. For a start I think we need to know whether he says it's Krupp-built because he's been told that or whether he knows it is. If it does prove to be by Rheinmetal then with only 34 ever made it's a priceless relic and deserves to be restored as fully as possible. Like Centurion, I have no idea what he means by "round the corner". I didn't see anything else but it was bucketing down so I wasn't exploring as much as I might have done on a better day.

I've been looking back at the thread and noticed that one of the links to preserved rohrwagens shows what's again said to be a Krupp gun but it has a Rehinmetal cart with it. I wonder whether the carts, at least, were interchangeable? This story has a way to run yet, I think.

Keith

Not sure how the carts could be interchangeable. With the Krupp gun the tube was winched breech first through the gun shield onto the carriage which was tilted (using jacks) so that the tube stayed horizontal all the time. With the Rheinmetall the carriage was positioned so that the trail was underneath the cart (which may have been tilted using jacks ) and the tube winched muzzle first onto the carriage . The front wheels on the Krupp carts appear to be roughly the same size as on the other end - on the Rheinmetall the pivoting wheels appear to have been smaller (the main photo I've seen is very dark).This makes sense as the idea was to ensure that the tube slid smoothly rather than crash onto the carriage and would allow the Rheinmetall cart to be tilted to match the carriage (two alternative solutions to the same problem). Both carts had seats for the gunners at the towing end these were fixed to the bit that's missing.

Of course there is the possibility that the cart wheels were interchangeable to allow the Rheinmetall to be tractor towed rather than horse drawn.

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My reply:

Dear Paul,

Thank you for your recent e-mail and interest in the German field gun. I can assure you it is a real item and that it is a 150mm 1918 Krupp PM18 Kanone. It was captured and later placed on display in a park in Esholt in Yorkshire, later being tipped into the local sewage works filter beds (around 1925). It was discovered in August 1981 during reconstruction works at the works, recovered and later presented to Beamish by the Yorkshire Water Authority. It was restored and placed on display in the park on 9
th
August 1987, Hooge Day (locally significant to the DLI). Unfortunately over the years the elements have been unkind to the wheels in particular (though the supporting carriage, which is just around the corner, has faired very much better). We have recently been talking to a number of potential sponsors regarding restoration of the wheels (seriously expensive) and cleaning and painting the gun and carriage. This is very much dependent on the good will of others and may be regarded as ‘in hand’.

Thank you for the reply. It is good to know that the equipment is on the list for maintenance. I thought it should have read Hooge Day on the plaque. I was scratching my head when I read Hoodge instead.

Can I once again press you to visit the thread on the Great War Forum about this? It's at http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=166532. There is a lot of information about German 150-mm guns in it now and I'm sure that some of the information might be useful in applying for grants towards the repair work. This is not at all a common piece of kit and its rarity may sway some fund-holders in your favour.

I'm not trying to be awkward but how do you know that it's a Krupp-made barrel? As you can see in the thread, the German High Command issued a specification to the Krupp and Rheinmetal companies and each produced a design. Although made to the same specification, there were some detail differences that are known, such as the way the barrel was reunited with the carriage (see Post 78) and the way the wheels were made. Krupp-built barrel-transportation carts (rohrwagens) had solid wheels and this design was intended to be hauled mechanically. The Rheinmetal version had lighter, spoked wheels, like the one at Beamish, and was intended to be hauled by horses.

In Post 70, it is said that only 36 guns were delivered by Rheinmetal and 214 by Krupp. If the barrel can be shown to be a Rheinmetal product then it becomes an extremely rare relic of WW1. There will be markings on the barrel - I don't know where - made by the manufacturers that will clinch matters one way or the other.

Likewise the rohrwagen. It can be easily determined whether this is a Rheinmetal cart or a Krupp cart that has been fitted with Rheinmetal wheels for haulage by horses as is pointed out in the thread. In either case, this would be important information. If it is a Rheinmetal cart then, again, this would be an incredibly rare survivor.

I do not understand what you mean by "supporting carriage." There is no mention of the rest of the gun ever being at Esholt. If you have another set of wheels that fit onto the cart where it presently sits on the ground then you have everything needed to rebuild the rohrwagen into the form it had at Esholt, it's true form.

I'm astonished that you say the equipment was buried at Esholt in 1925, a mere three years after its arrival and with memories of the conflict so new. It probably contributed to its survival as the chances are it would have gone in some WW2 scrap drive.

I hope this answers your query and reassures you that the gun is cared for. I for one would very much like to tow it behind a locally owned ‘colonial’ traction engine used in the Boer War – not quite appropriate but a good indication of the work these engines did.

I am reassured but it isn't a gun! The specification issued to Krupp and Rheinmetal was for a gun that could be partially dismantled to improve its movement from one site to another. There are photos of the British equivalents being moved by traction engines and the very large, Holt tracked vehicles so the reduction in weight would have made moving the things a lot easier for the German troops. What you have is one half of of the equipment to make up a 150-mm kanone. It's the barrel on its four-wheeled transportation cart and the barrel would be winched from the cart onto the rest of the gun on arrival. I appreciate that you'd get a lot more questions about it in its original form than as it is now, set up to look menacing, but whether it's Krupp or Rheinmetal there are very, very few of these left. I'm glad it's in safe hands.

Regards,

Keith

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Re the tipped into the sewerage plant so soon after the end of the war. There was a similar case in the Lake District of a German gun being shoved into a lake by a number of inebriated Great War vets who afterwards made remarks to the effect "we had enough trouble with them during the war, don't want to see one round here". The gun was raised after WW2 on behalf of a private collector but has since vanished.

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It doesn't take a lot of imagining, does it? I'm sure anti-Central Powers feelings ran high for a long time after the War. My late father-in-law was a guest of the Japanese after the fall of Singapore and was on one of their railway projects, though not the one that runs over the Kwai. Unsurprisingly, he couldn't forgive or forget.

Keith

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The markings on the gun will be on the breech ring - the back of the breech.

I've attached an image of the markings on the 15cm gun at the Carribean Gardens, Melbourne.

This gun was made by Krupp in 1918 - note the Krupp trademark - the 3 interlocking circles.

If the Beamish gun barrel is a Rheinmetall barrel it will have markings something like those on

the attached image of a 15cm howitzer built by Rheinmetall.

Regards,

Charlie

post-53787-0-77618000-1312439059.jpg

post-53787-0-66095800-1312439079.jpg

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Excellent pictures Charlie.

Perhaps the curator or someone near to Beamish could take a couple of pictures of the barrel markings and post on here?

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Looking at the original photo of the breech posted by Keith, it probably just needs a gas torch and a wire brush and hopefully the number will appear. Of course it may be possible to see it without this, with just a close up shot or two of the area in question?

Does anyone live nearby?

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I'll drop the curator another email pointing him at these photographs.

Keith

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I've been to Beamish today. The gun is marked but the paint makes it very hard to read. However someone more familiar with markings may be able to make something of them. To post a low resolution image wouldn't much use but if you PM me I'll send what I have.

If it can be identified as a rarity then it may be more likely to attract some funding to restore it.

David

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I've been to Beamish today. The gun is marked but the paint makes it very hard to read. However someone more familiar with markings may be able to make something of them. To post a low resolution image wouldn't much use but if you PM me I'll send what I have.

If it can be identified as a rarity then it may be more likely to attract some funding to restore it.

David

I've tweaked one of David's images - it looks like the markings are similar to #103 at Melbourne. That is, built by Krupp in 1918 - the serial appears to be #116.

Regards,

Charlie

post-53787-0-80165400-1312622792.jpg

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So can we draw a conclusion about the rohrwagen yet? If the barrel's Krupp, does the rohrwagen have to be a Krupp one (I suspect it does)? That leaves the wheels. Can we say anything beyond they're the type used when the equipment was intended to be drawn by horses?

Keith

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I don't think you can draw too many firm conclusions from a Krupp barrel on a Rheinmetall carriage - the 15cm guns were fairly similar so there

would seem to be no issues putting Krupp barrels on Rheinmetall Rohrwagen or vice versa. A similar Austro-Hungarian Rohrwagen

could be used for both the 15cm Skoda howitzer barrel and the 10.4cm Skoda M15 gun barrel.

With the captured guns distributed to communities after WW1 there is always the possibility that the current arrangement was a creation of

the troops looking after the captured gun park. There are a couple of surviving guns in Australia which seem to be creations of the gun park.

Regards,

Charlie

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Charlie, Centurion suggested earlier in the thread that the way the barrels of the two guns were returned to their carriages differed, which prompted my feeling that this was most likely to be a Krupp carriage with lighter wheels rather than a standard Rheinmetal one. Although it certainly wouldn't be a surprise if the storage parks cobbles bits together to be sent out after the boffins had finished examining them.

Keith

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Just picked up German Artillery 1914 - 1918 published by Almark publications on fleabay.

Interesting photograph which shows the configuration of the carriage and barrel carrier for this type of gun.

post-46676-0-40351800-1313229501.jpg

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Thanks, Ian. A great contribution to the thread.

I've had nothing back from the curator at Beamish, I'm afraid. If and when I do I'll let you all know.

Keith

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  • 1 year later...

Keith, did you get anything back from Beamish? I visit fairly frequently but never remember to try and see the markings, was there this morning - should be back next week so shall try to then!

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Hi,

This type gun could never have been captured at Hooge in 1915,

regarding the small gains of ground at Hooge in that year

as it should have been in the very frontline, where these type of guns were never positioned.

Cnock

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URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/35/15cmw.jpg/]15cmw.jpg[/url]

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

The 15 cm K. L/40 seen from the other side

regards,

Cnock

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URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/17/15cm.jpg/]15cm.jpg[/url]

more detailed

Cnock

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Interesting camo' pattern!

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  • 6 months later...

Just seen this pic of Clifton Park Rotherham (undated). Sorry so small but enlarged versions require payment. Look similar.

09683572.jpg

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